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  1. #51

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    You didn't like it then?

    See, I wonder what would happen if, say, Archie Shepp or someone like that did it? You'd probably go 'Wow, that's amazing!'. Or maybe you wouldn't, I don't know :-)

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Probably someone here does not know the works of Archie Shepp.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peterson
    Despite having heard this lots of times I can’t even hum the melody properly. The form of the it is counterintuitive to me. However, and I’m probably missing something, I don’t have any major issues with the harmony. I’ve only improvised with iReal as I don’t feel the form yet but I’m finding my way ok.
    All in all, a challenge and a fun tune

    edit: just to be clear. I don’t really understand the harmony but when I play lines over it it doesn’t sound weird to me. Yet.
    I wonder if a lot of these less than glowing reactions to the tune reflect the fact that many of us learned jazz in a period in which bebop was not the "common practice language" and so its basic motions and characteristics feel alien? I love bebop, listen to it constantly, and would love to be a good bebop player, and so I love this tune and enjoy all its quirkly little twists and turns. Play it? I likely will make a hash of it. But I don't see how anyone could all it cold, sterile, or whatever. It reflects the quirky, unpredictable, surprising nature of bebop at its height. You can't just zone out on a predictable form, though these tunes have their own inner logic.

    To me, it's a challenge: do I force music to fit my expectation, or do I let it challenge my fixed ideas and emotional reactions? I confess I fail to rise to this challenge adequately in the face of some kinds of music and some tunes, but for me bop's challenge is one I really want to meet.

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Me neither, it's emotionless and obviously contrived. However, if you heard that Rosenwinkle version, a really good hell-for-leather bebop take can definitely excite an audience. Which might be the point.
    I disagree with this assessment. It is not "obviously contrived." That was likely what Salieri thought about Mozart, too. Bebop is its own musical language. It likes the knotty, unexpected twists, the unexpected chord change that, in retrospect, can be explained by theory but not predicted by it. The melodies were always a bit counter-intuitive (initially).

    I just don't think Miles Davis, John Lewis, Charlie Parker would perform and record it if it was "emotionless and contrived."

    For me, when I think that about some classic performance, I take it as a disclosure of my limitation and need to expand my horizons. Lots of times, I balk, turn away, shake my head, and lose the moment. Once in a while, I get it and grow.

    I hope I can grow some on this tune.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    Classic album! Here's an old transcription of mine for anyone keen to follow along:

    Attachment 84232Attachment 84233Attachment 84234Attachment 84235Attachment 84236
    This is a treasure! thanks!

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    You didn't like it then?

    See, I wonder what would happen if, say, Archie Jo Shepp or someone like that did it? You'd probably go 'Wow, that's amazing!'. Or maybe you wouldn't, I don't know :-)
    It was a reply to your ear, harmony, acceptance statement, not your clip

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronstuff
    I'll throw in this take to get things going! I rarely play the melodies on these jams, but since I called the tune and play first I went forward with it.

    Yeah, liked that. Gotta say that anyone not liking this tune should maybe just abstain from playing it (FFS!).

    I'm personally currently on hiatus from these jams partly due to the heat (35C many days) and also cuz I decided to stop playing rock fusion all over them I'm really taking the time to study the appropriate vocabulary in order to add the Bebop string to my bow as a player.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronstuff
    I'll throw in this take to get things going! I rarely play the melodies on these jams, but since I called the tune and play first I went forward with it.

    Tune sounds great when you play it!

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple_Jazz
    It was a reply to your ear, harmony, acceptance statement, not your clip
    Well, the words only mirror what the clip was doing. But you're liking it to a clock stopping. Presumably meaning that, like the proverbial chimps typing Shakespeare, any random notes have to be right sooner or later! I don't know, maybe you're right.

    But, of course, it wasn't quite like that. I thought that if the background was ascending in half-steps, thus giving an unpredictable and somewhat jagged feel to the whole thing, then a lead solo could do something similar. In other words, against that background, what would normally sound discordant would assume a different feel, like identical colours and shapes that look different against different backgrounds.

    That was the idea, anyway. And I actually Ike my clip a lot, I think it worked, for what it's worth :-)

    I've done something else since, by the way. Here's another version that doesn't use any of the actual changes in the solo. The chords I'm outlining are all different chords to what's on the chart. It follows a deliberate idea, of course, but I think it works. See what you think.


  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    It is not "obviously contrived." ... I just don't think Miles Davis, John Lewis, Charlie Parker would perform and record it if it was "emotionless and contrived."
    .
    By contrived, I just thought (and I still do) that it all sounds rather deliberately put together. There are the requisite number of notes and triplets and the frequent BeBop cliché landing smack-dab on the b5 note (or whichever it is). But, of course, bebop tunes are all sorts, not just that. Round Midnight is a bebop tune!

    But, really, it only matters what you think, not what others think. I'm sure you'll do it proud. The head apart, the chords are actually quite fun.

  12. #61

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    I’ve been trying this tune out and I found I just need to pay some attention to those minor chords going up/down, they only occur in 2 places, i.e. bars 4-6 of the A section, and the last 2 bars of the bridge. But I find it easy playing stuff over minor chords anyway, so not a big deal. The rest is pretty standard ii-V type stuff which I have no problem with.

    The melody is harder of course, working on that!

    I’ve always liked the sound of this tune, the melody and those quirks in the changes make it interesting. For some reason I’ve never tackled it though, probably because when I first heard it, it sounded too advanced for me (these Bird and Miles tracks were some of the first jazz records I got), and after that I just never got round to it.

    Interesting that Charlie Parker plays tenor sax on this track, he didn’t do that very often.

  13. #62

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    The two charts posted early in the thread are not identical. And, the Rene Thomas version is slightly different still.

    I like the way Ron played it. Full tempo and every note clear. Clearly a fine fingering, which I wish I could play at that speed.

    The significant variations are in the triplets -- for me, how many consecutive descending notes must be played on different strings.

  14. #63

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    The Aebersold chart sounds more accurate to me than the chart Ragman posted, but it doesn't have the intro. So I am combining the intro from Rag's chart with the rest from the Aebersold chart.

  15. #64

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    Here's another chart, I changed the Cb-7 and Fb7 chords to Bmi7 E7 for simplicity.
    The intro is written, I also changed the Bbmaj7 to Bb-7 on page 2 in the ascending chromatic II - V’s.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Ronstuff; 08-29-2021 at 12:58 PM.

  16. #65

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    They look pretty much the same as what we have. There's also this which has a few different changes. There's a Db7 alt at the end of the intro. Also the Eb7 in the intro is now an EbM7. But the main difference is it starts with an Fm, not an FM7!

    In the head, the first F7b9 has a #5, and bar 5 has | Cm / Dbm7 Gb7 | which is rather complicated (but same as your pdf).

    JGBE Virtual Jam (Round 33) - Milestones (Old)-ms-3-jpg
    Last edited by ragman1; 08-29-2021 at 09:37 PM.

  17. #66

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    Usually chaos in the lead sheets is my cue to forget about a tune. I already have to sort out conflicting texts and contexts in my day job, in music, I just want a clean, accurate lead sheet.

    But this tune I've wanted to nail for a long time. So I'm interested in the whole "which is the most accurate lead sheet?" issue.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronstuff
    Here's another chart, I changed the Cb-7 and Fb7 chords to Bmi7 E7 for simplicity.
    The intro is written, I also changed the Bbmaj7 to Bb-7 on page 2 in the ascending chromatic II - V’s.
    Very slightly different than the others. In a combo setting with one instrument playing the melody you'd never notice the difference.

    Two good readers playing in unison and you could hear it.

    Nothing to complain about. Not a question of right and wrong. It's the nature of the music. The musicians on the original recording might have chosen the depart from the chart in front of them, if they were using one. Same for every subsequent recording -- with the variations propagating as different players listened to different versions. Or different transcribers notating rapid passages with very slightly different timing (like this chart has 16ths in one spot where the other charts have a triplet).

    I've recorded some of my own compositions in ways which depart a bit from my own chart. It happens.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I thought I could get some inspiration by googling ‘milestones (old)’ but I’m not sure it’s going to help much.

    Attachment 84238
    My milestone is even older! And it's fallen over.
    JGBE Virtual Jam (Round 33) - Milestones (Old)-romanmilestone-1stcentad-jpg

  20. #69

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    One advantage of having outtakes from a transcriber's point of view is that it's easy to compare versions for a more accurate picture.

    The Ebmaj7 in bar 2 from one of the charts above is what John Lewis plays in the master take but the false start recorded immediately before it and the succeeding alternate take have an Eb7b9. So therefore most likely an error on his part. As that section isn't part of the blowing section, it shouldn't concern anyone here too much.

    Also, I prefer to think about the 'outside' short ii-vs in bars 5 & 6 of the 'A' section as belonging to the same key, a descending iii-VI-ii-V progression (C#-7 F#7 B-7 E7). That progression would normally resolve to A major - easier to read and, as it happens, the key of the bridge! By contrast, the Db-7 Gb7 in bar 4 of the introduction is a minor subdominant of the preceding Abmaj7.

    Here's my chart:

    JGBE Virtual Jam (Round 33) - Milestones (Old)-milestones-jpg

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple_Jazz
    It was a reply to your ear, harmony, acceptance statement, not your clip
    Ok so I just listened to your clip and I think I am going to standby the broken clock bit

  22. #71

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    Well, at least you'll enjoy it twice a day :-)

  23. #72

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    I had a little bit of time to look at this tonight - worked on the head a bit, and should be able to post something in a day or two if I'm not too busy with other stuff. I'm another in the camp of "will get to it someday". That day is here ...

  24. #73

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    This take is like a typical day for me. Four kids, oldest 7, all boys. Rare glimpses of structure amidst periods of gradual breakdown.
    Feedback appreciated! I’ll give it another go before Thursday.

    Last edited by Peterson; 08-30-2021 at 04:24 PM.

  25. #74

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    So I've been going slowly on this knotty naughty little porcupine of a tune. This is only the A Section, looped a few times as I try to cement the fingering. I hope I have the right chart and the right notes!


  26. #75

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    It’s a difficult song to improvise melodically over. When I feel the resolution should come it just doesn’t. I get tangled in seemingly endless tension.