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  1. #1

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    Hi fellas, I think I got a pretty basic understanding of super arpeggios and bebop vocabulary, I struggle tho to use it on the fly in a organic way but I think is time to learn a bit more so please if you got any free pdf or video you could recommend me that would be great.

    I know truefire has some good discounts right now so if there is anything worth buying let me know too, I think they got a Carlton one that might be interesting.

    I got this Charlie Parker for guitar book, you guys got good experience with it?

    Cheers!

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Basshead
    Hi fellas, I think I got a pretty basic understanding of super arpeggios and bebop vocabulary, I struggle tho to use it on the fly in a organic way but I think is time to learn a bit more so please if you got any free pdf or video you could recommend me that would be great.

    I know truefire has some good discounts right now so if there is anything worth buying let me know too, I think they got a Carlton one that might be interesting.

    I got this Charlie Parker for guitar book, you guys got good experience with it?

    Cheers!
    Check out my channel

  4. #3
    Thanks man, looks nice your channel, could you please post a video of you talking about the super arpeggios please? you got tons of videos in there.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Basshead
    Thanks man, looks nice your channel, could you please post a video of you talking about the super arpeggios please? you got tons of videos in there.
    what are super arpeggios? Are they like extended arps?

  6. #5
    Extended arps and/or triad pairs too, or maybe Im confusing things here.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    what are super arpeggios? Are they like extended arps?
    New name for finding triads within a scale.

    For example, the Gm super arpeggio is a sequence of alternating major and minor intervals. G Bb D F A etc. First a b3 then a 3, then a b3 etc.

    That creates a triad starting on each note, alternating major and minor.

    It ends up, apparently, with the notion I learned from Warren Nunes that there are two types of chords and they're interchangeable within a type.

    So, Cmaj7 = Em7 = Gmaj7#11 = Am7

    and

    Dm7 = Fmaj7 = G7 = Am7 = Bm7b5

    Am7 is dual purpose. Not a typo.

    And, like Newtonian physics, this works fine in a lot of situations and then, it turns out, there are some situations where it doesn't work.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Basshead
    Hi fellas, I think I got a pretty basic understanding of super arpeggios and bebop vocabulary, I struggle tho to use it on the fly in a organic way but I think is time to learn a bit more so please if you got any free pdf or video you could recommend me that would be great.

    I know truefire has some good discounts right now so if there is anything worth buying let me know too, I think they got a Carlton one that might be interesting.

    I got this Charlie Parker for guitar book, you guys got good experience with it?

    Cheers!
    You're asking a question about a huge topic. It's hard to give a good answer without knowing more about your current knowledge. I'd suggest posting a video of yourself playing a jazz standard. I think you'll get more and better help if you do that.

    If you already have vocabulary you're struggling to use, you probably don't need more vocabulary at this point. I'd guess you need to transcribe more. What to recommend there depends on what music you like. Generally speaking, I suggest starting with transcribing players who don't play a zillion notes. On guitar that's Jim Hall, to name one guitar player. But, you can check out Paul Desmond, Stan Getz, Hank Mobley and others.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Basshead
    Extended arps and/or triad pairs too, or maybe Im confusing things here.
    OK. never heard that name for them before. Marketing eh?

    So I use (mostly) the Barry Harris approach where we use the triads and larger chords we can find within the dominant scale which people also call the mixolydian. We start by using just that scale and introduce minor later. Bebop is about 75% the study of the dominant scale and how to connect it to target chords.

    But it’s largely the same sort of stuff rpjazzguitar is talking about by a different name. This happens rather a lot in jazz education …

    TBH, one of the best ways you can get to understand this stuff is to learn and carefully analyse bebop heads with regards to this stuff. Heads are easier than solos, and have the advantage of being things you can play on gigs.

    I would advise learning the by ear (because it’s a language and you have to be able to hear it) and starting with something simple like Scrapple or Billies Bounce and looking forward triads and so on within the line before comparing to the vanilla chord sequence and seek by how they relate.

    later learn harder heads like Donna Lee, Old Milestones and Hot House. They are treasure houses of information. You can also look at solos of course, but there a load of material in heads that I think gets overloooked. David Baker once said if you know 50 bop heads you have all the language you need.

    once you’ve done this transpose to different keys etc and get used to applying bits of musical language to other contexts. So an obvious example is the ii V licks you might find in tunes like Groovin High.

    Barry Harris offers something a little different; a way to construct bop language from the ground up. I think doing both at the same time has helped me a lot with bop language.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    New name for finding triads within a scale.

    For example, the Gm super arpeggio is a sequence of alternating major and minor intervals. G Bb D F A etc. First a b3 then a 3, then a b3 etc.

    That creates a triad starting on each note, alternating major and minor.

    It ends up, apparently, with the notion I learned from Warren Nunes that there are two types of chords and they're interchangeable within a type.

    So, Cmaj7 = Em7 = Gmaj7#11 = Am7

    and

    Dm7 = Fmaj7 = G7 = Am7 = Bm7b5

    Am7 is dual purpose. Not a typo.

    And, like Newtonian physics, this works fine in a lot of situations and then, it turns out, there are some situations where it doesn't work.
    Well if Rutherford was correct and all science is either physics or stamp collecting, IMO music theory is at its most helpful when it stays as stamp collecting avoids the urge towards Newtonian completeness…

    Anyway, I have used these concepts for a long time without knowing that name. Really it’s another way to look at a chord/scale. Arguably a more useful way.

    Barry would say you can use any of the triads or seventh chord within the scale can be used, but he’s not viewing the I chord as Lydian by and large. One sure fire way to NOT sound like classic 40s/50s bebop is to use the Lydian on chord I; which is not to say it’s not a cool sound.

  11. #10

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    Btw one distinction I found very helpful was to separate harmony out from language.

    Bop language itself is as much about the rhythm as the harmony. It’s amazing how simple triads and blues licks can be made into bop language with the right rhythmic impetus.

    This is where I would start; just triads and passing tones etc


    the trick is the rhythmic language. This IMO is best learned by ear and internalised through singing and playing with records. Again, heads?

    People think it’s eighth notes but it’s really not. Parker heads will teach you that better than anything else…. Just look at things like Confirmation. But again you kind of have to learn them by ear because they can look like 8th notes when written down…

    Barry’s approach encourages you to think in simple harmonic blocks but embellish heavily by using lines derived from various patterns and ideas within scales. I’ve found this very helpful.

    This is completely compatible with chord scales actually (although Barry uses different actual names) but Chord Scale Theory tells you possible scales over chords but not how to actually turn them into jazz. Starting with dominant/mixo and getting a really good repertoire of things to play within it and then learning to apply it all over is one of the big chunks of the Barry approach to improvisation (Barry teaches actual harmony separately.)

  12. #11

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  13. #12

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    some older videos. Can’t remember how coherent they are haha.

    What is 'jazz language' and how do we make it? - YouTube





  14. #13
    Cheers guys, really good info here, I was thinking about this video min 33...


  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Basshead
    Cheers guys, really good info here, I was thinking about this video min 33...

    Yeah that’s a theoretical concept that gives you resources for making harmonic subs and extended chords. It’s helpful, but Bop language itself is something you have to learn by ear.

    Again it’s a real rhythmic thing and that’s kind of why; pitches can be accurately recorded in western music, but notated rhythms are only ever approximate.

    So you can have all the theory in the world but you won’t be able to play a note of bop if you don’t know how the music sounds and feels in intimate detail. Again this is primarily about the rhythm of the music; note choices in bop, esp chromatics are often strongly influenced by the rhythm.

    If you are not so much into actual bop but more like a fusion player looking to dip a toe into this, I would certainly suggest learning Larry’s solos exactly and playing them along with him, as well as adapting his language to different situations. That’ll teach you more than any tuition video.

    also check out horn players; you should check out Mike Brecker for instance.

  16. #15
    Yeah I agree with that, is all about groove and swing feel, I recorded myself last week trying some ideas over Sowhat, focusing on keeping the swing feel but with some nerve here and there, I was trying some pentatonic, basic triad, super arp like Miles and the second sax player in that recording do playing C triad over Dm, the sax guy plays Am triad and F triad too in a cool lick, I tried some bluesy lines and some horizontal approach ideas too, coming from blues/rock... this is interesting, kinda fun but at the same time kinda playing a new instrument.


  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Basshead
    Yeah I agree with that, is all about groove and swing feel, I recorded myself last week trying some ideas over Sowhat, focusing on keeping the swing feel but with some nerve here and there, I was trying some pentatonic, basic triad, super arp like Miles and the second sax player in that recording do playing C triad over Dm, the sax guy plays Am triad and F triad too in a cool lick, I tried some bluesy lines and some horizontal approach ideas too, coming from blues/rock... this is interesting, kinda fun but at the same time kinda playing a new instrument.

    Shmokey :-)

    Check out Wes on Four on Six from Smokin at the Half Note for some excellent applications of this ‘superarpeggio’ (tm) stuff

  18. #17
    What do you mean by Shmokey? sorry Im from Spain ;-)

    Forget about Wes... he was the best improviser to me, swing feel is crazy, every line makes sense, the sound, the thump... I prefer to think that he played another instrument LOL cause he did never sound like a guitarist, if you know what I mean.



  19. #18

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    I find playing through the cycle of fifths helps me to hear better. I posted a vid on Instagram a while back: Login • Instagram

  20. #19

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    Yea Christian pretty much said it.... get your chops together, which means.... your picking and rhythm skills.

    And as I remember... it might involve using Blue Notes.

  21. #20

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    That Larry Carlton video is from the 1970s, not so much a marketing thing, first I heard the term was from a Larry Carlton book that I believe predated the video. I'm old, I had the book and the video when they originally came out.

  22. #21
    Hey Peterson I love following the cicle of 5ths with all different arpeggios and stuff, it helps a lot.
    That video is from 86 at the baked potato.

    Hey Reg, which exercises you think I need to improve my picking and rhythm skills? you said that in general, sounds a bit vague or after listening to my videos playing?

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    That Larry Carlton video is from the 1970s, not so much a marketing thing, first I heard the term was from a Larry Carlton book that I believe predated the video. I'm old, I had the book and the video when they originally came out.
    I’m just teasing. You got to call it something. Super arpeggio is fine; I always called it the ‘ladder of thirds’ but I’m not sure anyone else calls it that…

    70s? Surely it’s 80s I would have thought? Unless I’m dead wrong the vhs instructional video is definitely and 80s phenom?

  24. #23

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    Bruce Forman talks about some specifics of bebop in this video. It’s worth the money many times over.

    https://www.mymusicmasterclass.com/p...-bruce-forman/

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar


    And, like Newtonian physics, this works fine in a lot of situations and then, it turns out, there are some situations where it doesn't work.

    Love it!

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    I’m just teasing. You got to call it something. Super arpeggio is fine; I always called it the ‘ladder of thirds’ but I’m not sure anyone else calls it that…

    70s? Surely it’s 80s I would have thought? Unless I’m dead wrong the vhs instructional video is definitely and 80s phenom?
    You're right sometime in the 80s. Larry was a gateway to jazz for me. I grew up near Hollywood and saw him play live several times in my high school days (mid to late 1970s). At the time his playing was some sort of magical mystery to me. Listen to the solo at 41:15 of the video... That was the mystery, how did he come up with those outside lines that sort of don't sound outside?

    That looks like the Baked Potatoe with a young Alex Acuna in the background.