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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    About integrating this material ...

    Apparently, some players learn patterns for melodic minor scales and then learn applications. So, you might learn Cmelmin and apply against C tonic minor chords like Cm6 and Cminmaj7. Then you apply it against F7#11, Am7b5 and Balt.

    That is, if you see Balt you can use anything you've worked out on Cmelmin.

    I say "apparently" because I don't know for certain that this is how other people do it. I found it difficult to make music that way.

    I can think Cmelmin for a tonic minor like Cm6. But, for the rest of them, I prefer to think about the chord tones. So I know that F7 is F A C Eb and that I lower C to B for the 7#11. I know that I have my choice of 9ths. I know to be careful with the nat7 and the 11ths. The 6th will be inoffensive.

    I don't think about all this when I'm playing. Usually, I think about chord tones and, if my ear is malfunctioning, I might think of the harmonic "backdrop" (I just coined that). In this case, it's "notes of F7#11, backdrop is Cmelmin". The harmonic backdrop refers to whatever shortcut you have for thinking of the rest of the notes you want to consider. You might think F7 is usually a dominant in Bb and use the notes of Bbmajor, except you know you need a B, so you raise the root. That gives you all white keys except Eb, aka Cmelmin.

    It works to think about different chord tones than the current chord of your tune. And, a different harmonic backdrop. For example, if the chord is Cmaj7 in the key of C, you can think Gmaj7 and Gmajor as the backdrop. That raises all the Fs (not a great note against Cmaj7) to F#, which gives you a lydian sound.

    One last point. This is not the important stuff. It's seductive because it's expressed in language. Same reason it's not the important stuff.

    The important stuff: 1. Time-feel. 2. Melody.
    Yes that makes a lot of sense to me. You aren't thinking Melodic Minor first you are thinking of the chord and then adding tension tones which might (or might not) express Melodic Minor and doing it that way. However, you say over say Cm6 you think C melodic minor rather than the chord tones of Cm6 with an added major 7th. Think I'd think C dorian and sometimes hint at the major 7th in that context.
    Thanks!

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by sandcatcher
    Yes that makes a lot of sense to me. You aren't thinking Melodic Minor first you are thinking of the chord and then adding tension tones which might (or might not) express Melodic Minor and doing it that way. However, you say over say Cm6 you think C melodic minor rather than the chord tones of Cm6 with an added major 7th. Think I'd think C dorian and sometimes hint at the major 7th in that context.
    Thanks!
    Right. It's what you already know when you're exposed to the new material. What's the best way to fit it into your current body of knowledge?

    I learned melodic minor by flattening the third of the major scale -- and I didn't know anything about applications until much later. So, it's easy for me to think "Cmaj but flatten the 3rd". That works on the tonic minor, but not so well on the rest. So, I end up with a mental kluge. It's not the best, organized, way to learn the material. Maybe a full-brain reboot would have been preferable, but sometimes you can't see the mountain hiding behind the hill you're already on.

    It also took a moment for me to realize that every mode of melodic minor is one note different from a major scale.

    So, you can get D mel minor, for example, by raising the root of a Cmajor scale.

    And that's true for every mode of Dmelmin, of course. So, G lydian dominant (4th mode Dmemlmin) is a C major scale with the root raised.

    You can get E mel minor E F# G A B C# D# by raising the root of a D major scale. Etc.

    So, if you know your major scales, you can find the notes for any melodic minor by changing one note. Sounds simple, until you try to organize your soloing by thinking that way.

    I'm on Chord X, which takes Y-mode of melmin Z, which can be found by altering the root of melmin A?

    So, my guess is a lot of players know tonic minor (same root), m7b5, 7#11 and alt. And, they may find the notes by thinking same root, up a b3, up a 5th, up a half step.

    Other players may just think about the chord tones and extensions. So, G lydian dominant is G7 with the #4. Or, maybe better yet, it's a G7#11 scale. One of my teachers taught it that way, but it can be confusing when a chord can come from different scales.

    The challenge there is to make all the keys automatic. And, 12 keys isn't enough. You also have to have the enharmonic equivalents automatic. You don't have time to see, say, G#m7b5 and think, oh, that's the same as Abm7b5, which I already know. By the time you do that, the rest of the band has moved on. Lotta work. All the approaches are.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 07-25-2021 at 06:42 PM.

  4. #28
    V interesting that all the modes are the same as major scales with one note altered. Hadn't thought of it like that.
    And totally know ehat you mean by thinking of something relative to something else taking too much time. I totally agree with that. Ultimately its only helpful theoretical ly but not so much practically. Like thinking D dorsin is C major. You are much better off learning D dorian I. Its own right.
    Thanks!

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by sandcatcher
    V interesting that all the modes are the same as major scales with one note altered. Hadn't thought of it like that.
    And totally know ehat you mean by thinking of something relative to something else taking too much time. I totally agree with that. Ultimately its only helpful theoretical ly but not so much practically. Like thinking D dorsin is C major. You are much better off learning D dorian I. Its own right.
    Thanks!
    I come down on the application side. For example, if you learn a great D dorian line, it makes sense to apply it everywhere you can. But you do have to get fast and fluent with these relative relationships.

    OTOH you don’t have learn different stuff over every chord…

    So, either way you have to practice lol

  6. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    I come down on the application side. For example, if you learn a great D dorian line, it makes sense to apply it everywhere you can. But you do have to get fast and fluent with these relative relationships.

    OTOH you don’t have learn different stuff over every chord…

    So, either way you have to practice lol
    Yeah I'm not a big fan of the relative stuff. Would rather go straight to it and I think musically that is more beneficial in the end. And yes efficient practice is always the key! Thanks!