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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Honestly, I wish everybody just wrote vanilla changes on lead sheets, and if there's something exact thats needed, specify.

    Trust the players.

    Eggs Ackley.

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  3. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    Eggs Ackley.
    I don't have a general rule.

    For Tin Pan Alley tune, vanilla is fine. Preferable, really.

    When I write, I often feel compelled to include the exact voicing, on a staff. It's because I hear that chord as part of the tune.

    If some tune I don't know has a b9 in the melody against a 7th chord, I'd like to see 7b9 in the chord chart. That way, I'll avoid the natural 9. So, it depends on the situation.

    For Spain's F#7, I'd rather see F#7b13. It's really the chord and it will let me know not to sub in an F#13, if I didn't already realize it.

  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    I think the original is pretty early in the tune's evolution.
    You don't say :-)

  5. #79

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    OK... so if you want to work on playing Spain, try just playing over Gmaj7 to F#7.

    Harmonically try and have some organization for what melodic ideas you want to develop.

    Vanilla.... Your in Bmin. Gmaj7 #11 or Lydian is a Sub. (Diatonic functional Sub) for Bmin.

    And F#7 is typical use of Bmin. using Harmonic Minor to harmonically or melodically creating the V7 chord in Minor harmony. The key is Dmaj. and the relative or borrowed Minor Key is B-.

    Typically in key of Dmaj..... F# would be the III- chord. Dma7 or (Ima7), E-7 or (II-7), F#-7 or (III-7).

    And when you move to the relative Min. of Maj. ( B-7 is the relative Min. of Dmaj7 ), Typically you add the maj. 3rd to the V7 chord. F# gets A# from using B Har. Min.

    The end result is you would use notes from Gma7 (lydian) Instead of the Lydian #2 from Har. Min. Just to much tension and sounds lousy.

    And on the F#7 chord you would pull notes from B Har. Min. to imply F#7 or the V7 chord, Called Phrygian Dominant. 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7 or as chord... 1 b9 3 11 5 b13 b7.

    Start there.... once you get the vanilla thing down, you can move on, start creating relationships from a reference that has harmonic organization.

  6. #80

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    After a few weeks off, I'm getting back into playing, here's my take.


  7. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronstuff
    After a few weeks off, I'm getting back into playing, here's my take.

    I'd say you're back. Really exciting take here. Almost made me want to learn the tune, and that's saying something.

  8. #82

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    Since we're discussing how to solo on Spain, I thought I'd try to figure out how I'm hearing it.

    I began by strumming the chords to get a feel. It sounds and feels like flamenco to me. I know that sound and I know a couple of the harmonic movements associated with it, but I ignored the technical side.

    The Gmaj7 sounds to me like three different chords. Gmaj7, Em9 and Bm/G (which amounts to the same thing as Gmaj7). I found that whatever I played based on those chords worked. I ended up with Gmaj7#11, meaning I found the notes that Reg already recommended.

    The move to F#7 sounds very Spanish and the b2 has always felt like part of that sound. Once again, I played the notes that sounded consistent with the Spanish motif and I got the same notes as Reg. F#11b9b13. Aka 5th mode Bharmmin or F#phrygian dom.

    I hear the Em7 as pretty much the same thing as the Gmaj7, but this time it move to A7. Its a ii V, but I hear it like ascending major triads.

    Here's the idea. Play 0x543x for the Gmaj7, then 0x432x for the F#7. Back to 0x543x for the Em7 and either move that two frets up for A7, or better, play the A7 as x05600. I hear this ii V as ascending. In Tin Pan Alley tunes I usually hear it as descending. Play the Dmaj7 as xx0222 and then 3xx222 for the Gmaj7. Then maybe x4x433 and then 2x433x. For the Bm I like x20220 and then x2122x.

    Back to the notes ... for the ii V I, it's the notes of Dmaj (A mixo). Then it goes to what I hear as Dmaj7/G -- same notes.

    For the C#7(and alterations) I hear C# F G# B and D (the chord tones). But also F# and A (the passing tones). That gives C# D F F# G# A B. By ear. Turns out to be the same phrygian dominant. I also heard it as C# D E F G A B, which is alt. That was easier to play because I've worked on alt more than phryg dom.

    Anyway, I used this method to find the notes I thought sounded good. Turns out to be almost exactly what Reg said. I think there's some value in thinking about it both ways.

    Then, I played the version below.

    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 07-29-2021 at 02:36 AM.

  9. #83

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    To be honest, I'm bored with it...

    This is what Chick Corea said too, that he'd started off basic, got tired of it, fancied it up, then got fed up with that too, and went back to basics. Now, as per his live video, it's a crowd-puller, all those young things clapping away and cheering, etc.

    I've been playing it constantly in various ways and it still sounds like what it is, sort of Flamenco-y with a samba backing.

    This version (considerably truncated) might be the last blast but you never know. The other thing is... it's addictive, going round and round, and I'm not sure that's a good thing musically.

    I liked what wzpgsr did because, by accident or design, he managed to make it sound more like New York than Cadiz, but even then it's hard.

    All the chords except the minors are altered here and it still sounds like what it is. I was going to make some of the majors into #5's but that was too extreme. So that's it!! :-)

    Unless it isn't...


  10. #84

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    rp -

    Nice. I can hear them clapping to that. Good stuff!

  11. #85

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    Olé! Got there eventually.


  12. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    To be honest, I'm bored with it...

    This is what Chick Corea said too, that he'd started off basic, got tired of it, fancied it up, then got fed up with that too, and went back to basics. Now, as per his live video, it's a crowd-puller, all those young things clapping away and cheering, etc.

    I've been playing it constantly in various ways and it still sounds like what it is, sort of Flamenco-y with a samba backing.

    This version (considerably truncated) might be the last blast but you never know. The other thing is... it's addictive, going round and round, and I'm not sure that's a good thing musically.

    I liked what wzpgsr did because, by accident or design, he managed to make it sound more like New York than Cadiz, but even then it's hard.

    All the chords except the minors are altered here and it still sounds like what it is. I was going to make some of the majors into #5's but that was too extreme. So that's it!! :-)

    Unless it isn't...

    I think you did a great job with enhancing the harmony without rejecting the flamenco DNA.

  13. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Olé! Got there eventually.

    Nice rendition of the melody! Not so easy to do. Classic tone, jazz feel and I really like the way you outlined the harmony -- also not so easy at that tempo. A couple of new entries on my list of things to steal.

  14. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop;[URL="tel:1137263"
    1137263[/URL]]Olé! Got there eventually.

    That was awesome!!

  15. #89

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    Just for fun, worst Paco and Al Di imitation ever, dont shot me yet, I quit playing nylon guitar 11 years ago but this was fun, plus this old one has the action higher than anything you have seen, almost imposible to play...anyway, I find latin pulse to be difficult to improvise specially if you normally play/practice swing pulse on two music.
    About the chords, to me the A7 is a A7b9 and the C#7 is a half diminished, basic ii v i minor harmonic.


    10000000_360404055605469_9218381559350626226_n

  16. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Olé! Got there eventually.

    Wow. That's the stuff. Made me want to learn the tune.

    PS though I'm not posting, I'm lurking and enjoying what you guys are doing with the tunes.

  17. #91

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    Graham, great take, and perfect tone. Nice to see someone tackle the head...it is fun...I dug up an old video to prove I could play at least some of it at one time

    Basshead, cool take, and great to have you aboard.

    This week's tune is a "No excuses" tune. Everybody has to participate. (That's the only clues I'm giving for now)

    Its also time to make the rounds on calling tunes again...ill put up a sign up thread today too...

    Anyway, here's another Spain when my kitchen was green and my hair was brown.


  18. #92

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    I think the acoustics were better when your hair was green... no, wait...

  19. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Olé! Got there eventually.

    Twice as impressive because you played con los dos ojos cerrados.

  20. #94

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    haha I managed to figure that out (although I ran it through a translator to make sure). I know a bit of French and Latin (yes we did that at school 100 years ago) and my wife is learning Spanish, so I had a pretty good idea.

    I know it looks like my eyes were closed, but in fact they were open a bit most of the time, enough to see what I was doing. You are not the first person to say that, I think I have got droopy eyelids or something!

  21. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Olé! Got there eventually.

    This is the version with the greatest amount of jazz.
    Best
    Kris

  22. #96

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    There's a new tune up and all, but I wanted to do another. Tried to add chromatism. The play along thing is starting to get to me, It can be so limiting yet that's the challenge I guess.


  23. #97

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    I can actually make a small contribution to this round. Here is a version I recorded a few years ago.


    cheers!