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I don’t think that’s a bad way to go. Modes can always be ‘bolted on’ when you’ve got used to these
Originally Posted by lawson-stone
The main things that makes a player sound ‘legit’ is time feel and phrasing.
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07-08-2021 07:01 AM
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I agree with that. Be-boppers and aspiring be-boppers could take solace from Carol Kaye's statement, Originally Posted by Christian Miller
'While on stage with Teddy Edwards or Jack Sheldon, or Red Mitchell or Joe Maini or another jazz legend (now they're jazz legends) I played with, if someone came by and was known to play "scales" they were banned from sitting-in...it was quite well-known that anyone who aimed to play via scales couldn't play -they didn't know the chord changes (nor could easily find them) and certainly didn't know their jazz soloing patterns'.
I'm sure that is oft-quoted and it could very well be attacked as a sweeping generalisation.
The late lamented Emily Remler has a great video on using the altered dominant and lydian dominant modes that, for me at least, made using melodic minor much easier to understand. Different strokes etc.
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Yeah, but if you can feel and hear jazz lines you can do something with a scale. Any scale really, you’ll make it into a phrase. If you can’t it will sound like scales. Originally Posted by Irishmuso
There’s nothing wrong with scales. But they won’t help you if you are not hearing and feeling jazz phrases. Jazz records are full of scales… but they SWING, and no competent player uses scales exclusively.
And while it’s true, some people are so musical they get it with just the raw materials (because they are already hearing it); most people need something more. And everyone needs to hear music, have some feeling for it. Most of us have to work things out from records
Emily with her thousands of hours or whatever listening to Wes and copping licks, learning tunes etc
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That part of the quote jumped out at me. Is she referring to what some folks call “vocabulary”, just using different terminology? Originally Posted by Irishmuso
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Sounds like it to me. Running changes means "outlining" them, and outlining means playing enough chord tones to convey the sound. (IMO) Originally Posted by wzpgsr
A scale based player will likely struggle with that. Fast harmonic rhythm with numerous key center changes will likey have the scale based player sounding less and less connected to the tune.
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Hey PMB... sorry late response... but There are obviously different ways of looking at A-7 D7, one is thinking and hearing with the sus angle... I was trying to imply another... the use of Chord Patterns. A-7 to D7 can be thought of and heard as two chords... with 1 harmonic reference... right. That's what chord patterns have become, at least for many years with performance and also academically. . They are like Chord Licks, or harmonic licks which can have preset harmonic movement within and still function as one chord within the organized space of the Form. Can be used with pedal like functions or just as a expanded tonic with more options.... vanilla version could be Cma7 becoming Cma9... I know you already get this BS... But many don't... so I'm trying to fill in the blanks. Originally Posted by PMB
Yea Dreamsville... still fun to perform today. And your rhythmic games with grid awareness is perfect. Another rhythmic game that's fun is the Rhythmic modulation toys.... standard being 3/4 becomes 2 dotted quarters, which becomes 2 half notes in 4/4 ... and your off in a different double time feel.
Yea all these BS things are part of Performance Practices... another part of the story, at that same gig with duo at end of Dreamsville we went into St Thomas.... in the moment..harmony game... changed the 1st 8 bars into Calypso vamp, with the Cmaj7 to G-7/C 1st section of Dreamsville. And flated the "B" to "Bb" of melody...so on the Cmaj... became Blue Note of Cmaj.... the tension thing and resolved on the G-7... was cool, same bridge, well at least same to me.... but wait, more
one of the agents that I work with... showed up during Dreamsville, he's old school... really old, dug the whole thing and tried to book us with more winery gigs yada yada... sorry about the story things...
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So this will be my last, for now, post on this chorus of Rhythm Changes from The Joe Pass Guitar Style. I wish I could say I've incorporated all the good suggestions you all have given me. I've thought about them, worked with them, and I wish I could pack more of those ideas into this, but when I do a take I try to just play the thing and I do hope some of the help you guys have offered shows. The pace is still slow, about 125 bpm, but I think I might have just a tiny bit better feel. Maybe I just know the notes better.
Anyhow, I will keep playing with this chorus, but I'm moving on to learn the second chorus in the book and will start a thread when I have that under some degree of control. It would be fun if others would give it a shot, but I'm not trying to start a study group, just a conversation that hopefully will help me play better and benefit others.
Comment is welcome, but I'm not trying to stretch this thread out any farther; just wanted to do a final (for now) post and move on.
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I sincerely hope you went back and listened to all the progress you made this week! Great stuff. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
And yeah, you got advice, but advice didn't make that happen. You did.
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Pretty clear that you know it better now, great job man! And not that you need my advice but a few more slurs(not too many) and maybe a rise in volume in some tension spots would really put a cherry on top.
im working on it too in what limited time I have in this insane year.
it’s great stuff, and i know I’m repeating myself but I think that many others would benefit from this book. Both the blues and rhythm changes.
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Wow, congratulations Lawson! I think that's the biggest advance I've heard you make in a single thread. Great tone as well. I was going to suggest recently that it might be worthwhile, when playing the example solo, to practise with your metronome on '2' & '4' to help lock in the groove (and I still think it may be a good idea) but I can hear that's starting to happen anyway.
Apologies if I overstepped the mark in any of my responses. Like Holger, I've been a teacher for many years and our natural impulse is to help out, especially when someone is really making the effort to improve.
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Thanks for you encouragement not just recently, but for as long as I've been on this forum. You have a knack for mixing direct criticism with encouragement that makes me want to stop and try out new ideas. Your comment is always welcome. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
The great thing about good advice is that it saves me from wasting my efforts on pointless, time-consuming drills that I don't know will really help me. So I do appreciate the solid guidance given by a really wide range of good players here.
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Your advice has been really helpful so don't hesitate to fire away. The slurs... I actually tried to hold back on them because I can't slur yet in a way that is as strong as my picking. My current slurring seems to me to make me sound more "bouncy" than actually swinging. But as I practice I'm working on that. Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
The great virtue of memorizing a good solo is that I don't think about note choice, but concentrate on phrasing and execution. Limiting what my poor brain cells have to deal with is important!
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You didn't overstep at all. I'm eager to get thoughtful critique and good advice, so your input has been welcome. I appreciate your encouragement too. Originally Posted by PMB
ON the 2/4 thing, I've heard this, but I've also heard really good players who recommend patting or setting the metronome on 1/3. I wonder if both have a place at different points in one's growth?
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hey Lawson... yes you seem to have it memorized better. The performance... sounded much better... which like I said before... sounds great. And I agree move on. I don't know the book and haven't played any Pass material since the 70's. But I'm sure I could sight read through if you want or thought would help. I'm booked all weekend... so don't bother sending until monday if you want.
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I'm always interested in hearing how others handle a piece of music I'm working on. Originally Posted by Reg
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So this morning I felt pretty good and did a one-off clip using the L5ces, a slightly higher tempo, and trying to use slurring to improve (hopefully) my phrasing. It felt really nice and loose for some reason. Maybe I hadn't practiced enough today to get tense about it.
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Careful, you made that exercise sound like...MUSIC.
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Sounded great. I am curious how you worked out your fingerings and what position to play this in? Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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Thinking exactly that. To exercise this I’d like to analyse which scales and triads are used against the chords. Originally Posted by charlieparker
I was wondering when playing a solo and - for example - playing a D on a G string is the fingering normally decided by the scale you’re in? It seems once you do that the patterns are found easier. And I will have to really start 2 bar slowed down exercise to get my Whisper Not where I want it to be! Yes I am still stuck on it as I’m using it as a frame to learn scales, hear chords and learn arpeggios.
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I’m working it out too and the truth is that Bebop vocabulary isn’t that guitar friendly, you really have to want it. That is especially true when all these altered tensions are played. Originally Posted by Eck
For me that means shifting on almost every chord change, hopefully by a distance of only one fret. Players who use stretch fingerings will shift less. Either way, guitarists are forced out of their pentatonic and diatonic comfort zones to play lines like this.
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I’m still thinking an altered scale is just a melodic minor scale. Trick for me is to hear the notes and to know which finger to put on the 1, 3, 5. But of course is only the very beginning.. Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
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I don't do stretches very well, and I've always admired Joe Pass' LH and RH technique. His LH is always somehow in position. You don't see him stretching a lot, he always seems to "already be there" and finds the note right under his fingers. I try to emulate that. His RH is also classic, no propping or anchoring, but hanging free whether he's playing with pick or finger-style. I started pinky-propping back when I was like 8 or 9 years old, and at 66 I doubt I can break that habit. But I try to rely less on it, just a light touch, not really resting weight on it. Originally Posted by charlieparker
My default position is usually the middle of the neck, and I usually start with a scale position where the root is not under my index or pinky, i.e. second finger. Then I adjust. I also scan the notation to look at its range. Middle of the staff, middle of the neck. High on/Above the staff, I start up around the 8-10th fret.
I learned my positions from two sources, one was the book by Leon White Styles for the Studio, which is IMO a great book now in an updated edition. I also learned really early, like 35 years ago, the basic CAGED system with pentatonics, and it still functions as a reference for me. I admit both systems can limit you to wanting to stay with a "box" but to this I've added something I learned doing the Robert Conti studies, namely, I keep fingers 2-3 generally in place, and stretch only with the index or pinky. If more is required, I'll shift.
If you practice reading enough, you get pretty good at anticipating where you need to be on the neck to cover the notes. For the guitarist, that's a critical skill for sight-reading along with immediately recognizing rhythmic figures, a big deficit for me!
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I gave a longer explanation in another reply. But I have a few favorite positions for different places on the neck, which is a limitation as much as an advantage but it's a starting point. My first "read down" of a piece is all about finding where to play it. And that has to be slow, unless of course the piece is pretty straight-forward which bebop solos are NOT! Originally Posted by Eck
The hardest positional challenge for bop on the guitar, for me, is the periodic need to slur into a note on the downbeat and in the position Im using, that note is at the "top" of the "box." I prefer to stretch with the pinky, not the index finger, but I'm working on making the index down-reach for a slur more natural. It's essential for playing bop, at least in my very, very limited experience.
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I would flip the mental map from scales to arpeggios (altered ones at that) to approach lines like this, even though the lines are made up of both skips and steps. Originally Posted by Eck
My two cents.
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The Galt scale is G Ab Bb B Db Eb F. That is, root, 3, b7, plus both altered 5ths and both altered 9ths. Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
If the chord is G7, you get the "alt" quality from Db. Eb. Ab. and Bb.
Eb7sus is Eb Ab Bb Db. That's all four of the alterations.
Abm(add9) is Ab B Eb Bb. That's three of the four.
Bbm7 is Bb Db F Ab. Also three of four.
You can learn the sounds by playing the notes of Eb7sus (or the others) against G7. Similarly for Abm(add9).
Making music will require making good melody with a mix of G7 notes and the altered notes.
My impression (from going about this in a poor way) is that the foregoing is more likely to produce good results than thinking "melodic minor a half step up". That's because playing an arp tends to leave more space in the line than playing a scale. I say "tends" because there's nothing stopping you from leaving notes out of a scale, but sometimes people play each note no more than a whole step from the previous one.
EDIT: Db13 is Db F Ab B Eb Bb (omitting the 11th). So, the tritone sub played as a 13th chord contains the 3 and b7 of the G7 .. and both altered 5s and 9s.
When I transcribe, I usually get the impression that the soloist is thinking about chord X over chord Y rather than scale/mode X over chord Y. But, maybe that's just what catches my ear enough to induce me to figure it out.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 07-12-2021 at 06:45 PM.
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