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  1. #51

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    This thread has got me thinking critically about RC and I like reading everyone’s take on it. I mentioned earlier that RC shouldn’t be called out as a tune but an actual RC tune should be called instead. At least with Rhythm-a-Ning or Oleo you can reference the melody or rhythm of the head.

    ive been shedding this all weekend and found that all these backing tracks have different chords after the initial 1-6-2-5. What are the changes you mostly play? I found this video helpful too.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple_Jazz
    ive been shedding this all weekend and found that all these backing tracks have different chords after the initial 1-6-2-5. What are the changes you mostly play?
    I like III-7 - bIIIdim7 | II-7 - V7b9

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

    John, that tone, and a few of your angular lines, reminded me of the first Marc Robotech and the prosthetic Cubans record. Lots of fun, and I thought it grooved, in a push kind of way as opposed to a "lay back."
    I took me a couple of readings to decode your spell checker -- Marc Robotech = Marc Ribot! I love his playing. If I may be permitted a digression ...

    I first heard him on this record:



    The leader of this band was my upstairs neighbor in an apartment I lived in (ca. 1983-4), and a real character. Anyway, one day I'm jamming in my room with a buddy, and this guy rings my doorbell and starts jabbering at me in heavily accented English and French. I manage to slow him down and figure out that he wasn't complaining about the noise, but instead inviting me to join his band. He then hands me this record and asks me to learn the songs on it. I never could quite nail Ribot's feel, but I think some of it did rub off.

    I met Ribot through a mutual friend not too long after (but before he became well known), and have paid attention to him ever since. In interviews, he is very humble, even self-deprecating, about his playing. But let me tell you -- I got to hear him just noodling around in my friend's living room, and holy moly can he play. Not flashy, but has total contrapuntal command of what he's doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    John, That sounded great. Feels like the tone allows you to be you. By that, I mean that the extra sustain gives the lines weight which works with the melodic content. The EXDC is a fine instrument for that (I have the same one and used it for years for that reason, as my primary instrument) because it runs dark and sustains, to my ear.

    We play rhythm changes because of the bop connection, which is traditionally not played with a lot of sustain. But I don't think that matters. The idea, I think, is to sound like yourself. This is working for you, IMO.
    Thanks a lot. I think there's quite a bit of truth in what you're saying here. This guitar really feels like "home" to me, as does playing with a little hair on the tone for sustain and legato. Even with my archtop and especially with my Strat, I like to get a little of that. But the EX DC comes through on direct recordings a lot better.


    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Nice version by Scofield here, which I think illustrates the points that John A. made:

    Yeah, I love this recording (which I have). I also so this trio once, and they were fantastic.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Of course, that's the whole point.
    Not thinking of anyone on these threads, but in general I think many on this forum don't quite get that point. There's a lot of talk here about what amounts to jazz on paper, almost to the exclusion of jazz in the room. I realize some are constrained by circumstances, but I think this has sent a lot of people here who could engage more with other players down false trails in terms of their learning how to play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronstuff
    Here's a short one. I also agree with John about the posting here and the format. The interaction element is such a huge part of playing jazz. I just recorded 19 original tunes a few weeks ago and it was such a blast, got to play with some really great players. I was in a frame of mind of wanting to play melodies and playing through changes not over them.
    I am definitely just playing the form and making the changes here!
    I'm enjoying my latest setup: A Princeton Custom 68 amp, and a JHS Morning Glory overdrive.

    Great stuff Ron, and a great sound. I have a regular ('78) PR, which I have not managed to record well, but it's my favorite sound ever IRL.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triple_Jazz
    This thread has got me thinking critically about RC and I like reading everyone’s take on it. I mentioned earlier that RC shouldn’t be called out as a tune but an actual RC tune should be called instead. At least with Rhythm-a-Ning or Oleo you can reference the melody or rhythm of the head.

    ive been shedding this all weekend and found that all these backing tracks have different chords after the initial 1-6-2-5. What are the changes you mostly play? I found this video helpful too.
    Totally agree about calling a tune, not a set of changes. Ditto for blues.
    Last edited by John A.; 06-14-2021 at 11:45 AM.

  5. #54

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    Is that a thing, to call "Rhythm Changes" at a jam?

  6. #55

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    My private teacher is soon to give me that lesson devoted to Rhythm Changes. Still working through "My Shinning Hour."

    Mumblings abound on this take.

    200bpm no accompaniment. Trying to build in the phrases. Need to be more explicit with the harmony, but never at the cost of melodic integrity and intent.

    If there's a jazz standard or form that I find boring, it's usually an indicator that I'm the boring player and have certain holes in my own musicianship to address. For instance, I felt that "All Blues" was a boring tune for a while... Why isn't it boring when Cannonball plays it? Why isn't boring when Pat Martino or George Benson play it?

    Again, the fault is with me. I am lightyears away from pro level playing. That said, music is communication for me--and I want to be able to articulate my musically with players of any level... at least that's my goal.

  7. #56

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    I saw Herb Ellis do it in a packed club.

    Turns to the local musicians hired to back him up, and says "rhythm changes". Herb played an original head.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Is that a thing, to call "Rhythm Changes" at a jam?
    I've heard people say "let's play RC" (or a blues) and then settle on tune (though not literally just call for RC without a head in mind). But the idea of playing RC precedes the song idea, if that makes any sense.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    I've heard people say "let's play RC" (or a blues) and then settle on tune (though not literally just call for RC without a head in mind). But the idea of playing RC precedes the song idea, if that makes any sense.
    Exactly. And people will play different heads in and out and sometimes more during the solos (like I do when I'm out of RC ideas).

  10. #59

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    Don't worry about smiling John A., the shirt makes up for it.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I saw Herb Ellis do it in a packed club.

    Turns to the local musicians hired to back him up, and says "rhythm changes". Herb played an original head.
    Oh, but still a head, a tune.

  12. #61

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    I get excited when anyone listens to my stuff, but when vintage takes a listen I get extra psyched--a good day a JGF!

    Vintage, always dug your lines--from the days of Willie Thomas to now. You've got bop in your bones and you sing out loud.

    Speaking of singing, I was wondering how you internalize a tune and ideas thereof?

    For me, I've created a playlist of 300 tunes based on rhythm changes on iTunes. I listen to that playlist on shuffle a little each day. Some great contrafacts based on that tune.

    Second, I play the bass movement on the guitar. Then I add the third to each chord in the harmony.

    Third, I sing the bass movement throughout the whole tune. Then I add the thirds on my guitar to each chord as I sing the roots.

    Fourth, I sing the thirds while I play the roots on my guitar.

    Fifth, I sing the Root and Third to each chord in the harmony.

    The more I can sing and play, the more I internalize the sound of the tune. The less boring it all gets in the end.

    So Vintage, anything else I missed. Should I revisit Willie Thomas (R.I.P.) ?

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Is that a thing, to call "Rhythm Changes" at a jam?
    In my experiences yes, sometimes there will be an agreement on an actual RC tune other times we are literally playing an “exercise” with blowing.

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
    I get excited when anyone listens to my stuff, but when vintage takes a listen I get extra psyched--a good day a JGF!

    Vintage, always dug your lines--from the days of Willie Thomas to now. You've got bop in your bones and you sing out loud.

    Speaking of singing, I was wondering how you internalize a tune and ideas thereof?

    For me, I've created a playlist of 300 tunes based on rhythm changes on iTunes. I listen to that playlist on shuffle a little each day. Some great contrafacts based on that tune.

    Second, I play the bass movement on the guitar. Then I add the third to each chord in the harmony.

    Third, I sing the bass movement throughout the whole tune. Then I add the thirds on my guitar to each chord as I sing the roots.

    Fourth, I sing the thirds while I play the roots on my guitar.

    Fifth, I sing the Root and Third to each chord in the harmony.

    The more I can sing and play, the more I internalize the sound of the tune. The less boring it all gets in the end.

    So Vintage, anything else I missed. Should I revisit Willie Thomas (R.I.P.) ?

    Thanks for the kind words man.
    To your first question about internalizing a tune. I would say much of it comes down to my classical training. Time spent learning to sight sing, theory analyzation, etc. so when I learn a new tune I am pretty much always aware of if the melody is a do re mi/123, and how it relates to the underlying harmony. While I don't necessarily do the singing exercises you mentioned, a lot of that stuff is "baked in" from previous training.


    As far as why do I sing when I play? It's the guaranteed way to make sure the music is coming from your brain, and not your fingers. It's equally important rhythmically as it is melodically. Keep in mind none of the stuff I post is usually ever intended to share. It's mostly just a result of me keeping a recorder on when I practice. If I am getting paid or recording, I would certainly make sure to either be quiet, or have my voice go unnoticed. I just advise doing it to guarantee that it's not your fingers that are making the music, but your mind.


    Uncle Willy is the man, you can do much worse than to study his stuff, that's for sure. Take care!!!

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple_Jazz
    In my experiences yes, sometimes there will be an agreement on an actual RC tune other times we are literally playing an “exercise” with blowing.
    Wow, thats awful. At least play fucking "Lester Leaps In."

  16. #65

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    If you get bored playing this form, learn more melodies.

    I'd learn "Lo Joe" if you feel like your playing is stale. George Coleman would be a hell of a horn player to transcribe to guitar:



    Angular, yes. But the way it's phrased...



    And... it's in Db major.


    Lester, meet Stitt:



    How about one from Mr. Night Train himself, Jimmy Forrest?

    Last edited by PickingMyEars; 06-14-2021 at 01:16 AM.

  17. #66

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    Great thread this!

    I played a RC tune and a Bach cantata at the same gig last week and discovered this:


  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Let's see who has posted in the last day here...

    Lawson, liking the shorter phrases, bluesy inflections...good take.

    Triple, good energy, great time. Liked this.

    Rp, nice relaxed swinging, great tone. You sound very in control.

    Tommo, very enjoyable, great tone, nice direction in your playing. Noodle free zone.

    John, that tone, and a few of your angular lines, reminded me of the first Marc Robotech and the prosthetic Cubans record. Lots of fun, and I thought it grooved, in a push kind of way as opposed to a "lay back."
    Marc Robotech? I like it. The giant robots anime/avant garde jazz guitar crossover is truly a fusion whose time has come.

  19. #68

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    Rhythm changes is really in the category of "show off" or chops tunes, where you are supposed to be able to play that form in high tempos and burn through it. Like Giant steps, Cherokee, etc..

    To be able to really sound musical over such a relatively complicated progression is another level of playing. As is what say Scofield does, where he can play countless choruses without ever sounding contrived or repeating himself.

    I also like to see rhythm changes as an evolved blues form (which it is). So a combination of jazz lines and blues (Benson style) is my ideal improv over it.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Marc Robotech? I like it. The giant robots anime/avant garde jazz guitar crossover is truly a fusion whose time has come.
    Ducking autocorrect strikes again.

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Ducking autocorrect strikes again.
    mine always corrects 'great' to 'Greta' and I have zero idea why.

  22. #71

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    I just can't understand why it wouldn't simply autocorrect to 'Mark Robot'.

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    mine always corrects 'great' to 'Greta' and I have zero idea why.
    Obviously all those posts over at the Greta Van Fleet fanpage you run.

    I tried 3 times on my phone right now to get "Ribot" to autocorrect to Robotech again and I couldn't get it to happen. No clue.

  24. #73

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    What would Yoshimi say about Mr. Robotech?



    evil jazz robot police? Mr. B, are you trying to tell us something...?


  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
    What would Yoshimi say about Mr. Robotech?
    I don't think he'd be a good fit for the Flaming Lips. He'd probably have to go and join Battles, but since Braxton left, it's never been the same.

  26. #75

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    Odd aside, I've seen the Flaming Lips live at least 10 times. Love 'em.

    Let's see who I've missed...

    Ron, great to see you back. Great swinging take, loose, little grit in the tone...might be my eyes making the association, but definitely a bit of a Sco vibe, which is never a bad thing in my opinion.

    Picking, I decided to "play along" with you, since you were definitely taking the approach one would take if there was a band, and I like what I heard. The irregular phrases were rather speech like.

    Peterson, at first I was like "No way," and then 10 seconds later I had a smile from ear to ear. Gonna need to hear more about this gig that involved RC and Bach, though!