The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    JGBE Virtual Jam (Round 20) - Afternoon In Paris-1622134972600-jpg

    This week's pick is from Liarspoker...and it's a deceptively tough little bugger. Not much going on harmonically...midtempo...should be easy, right? The challenge becomes, how not to make a solo statement that sounds utterly and completely SQUARE. Have fun!

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    And for giggles, I'll start us off.

    I liked the idea of posting with no backing, inspired by PickingMyEars and John A. So I went for it, but instead of using a metronome on down beats, I used a 2-3 clave pattern.

    There's more about that in the "feel the clave in everything" thread.


  4. #3

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    What's that you say about the challenge of not playing something totally square over these changes?


  5. #4

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    Been listening to YT versions. Needs some lift to it. Sonny Rollins has got my attention at the moment. Haven't tried it yet.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    And for giggles, I'll start us off.

    I liked the idea of posting with no backing, inspired by PickingMyEars and John A. So I went for it, but instead of using a metronome on down beats, I used a 2-3 clave pattern.

    There's more about that in the "feel the clave in everything" thread.

    I like the idea and I noticed accents on 4+, so I tried it with 2-3 rumba clave. First few choruses it was confusing. Then, it started to seem easy. Worth trying. Not sure if I'll record that way, but I like the clave in everything idea.

  7. #6

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    To be honest, I'm not finding it that hard. Quite a few versions are slow but I reckon it ought to be quicker, which I'll do later. This one's pretty straight (or square, as you wish!).

    If you don't want to bother with me grinding out the tune, go to 1.50.

    The first solo's mostly all b9's. The second one's got lydian over the M7's, a 13b9 over the A7, a bit of altered elsewhere, and some vague bluesy twiddles. That's about it for this speed. It's not too un-Paris-y either.


  8. #7

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    JGBE Virtual Jam (Round 20) - Afternoon In Paris-4f9b1e5d-5214-4a82-89f2-8dba41a5cb6f-png

  9. #8

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    A lot of people will play C#-7 F#7 in bar 7 of the bridge.

    John, that was wacky. Not sure I heard "Afternoon in Paris," but I don't really care, "Evening in Havana with 70's era John Abercrombie still playing with a pick" was just as good or not better, in my opinion.

    Rag, I gotta admit, at first I was like "He made it SLOWER?" but it ended up a rainy morning here while I listened to a rainy afternoon in Paris...brought out the Romanticism of the City of Light, I'd say.

    I bought my son a new iPad, so I swiped his old one...if Acapella runs glitch free, I'm gonna do a Django Style version.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    A lot of people will play C#-7 F#7 in bar 7 of the bridge.

    John, that was wacky. Not sure I heard "Afternoon in Paris," but I don't really care, "Evening in Havana with 70's era John Abercrombie still playing with a pick" was just as good or not better, in my opinion.

    Rag, I gotta admit, at first I was like "He made it SLOWER?" but it ended up a rainy morning here while I listened to a rainy afternoon in Paris...brought out the Romanticism of the City of Light, I'd say.

    I bought my son a new iPad, so I swiped his old one...if Acapella runs glitch free, I'm gonna do a Django Style version.
    Here's how I did the wackiness.:

    First, I set up iRealpro to play AiP, and played around with different styles to see what sounded most bizarre. I picked "R&B" with a Rhodes and synth bass, exported this to a MIDI file, and then imported that into GarageBand. That gave me an unusable drum track, a Fender Rhodes sequence, and a bass sequence. I changed the keyboard sound to this bizarre atmospheric synth pad, but it's still playing iReal's keyboard sequence of AiP changes. I changed the bass sound to upright, but kept the same sequence, so it has AiP changes, "R&B" synthbass timing/pattern, and an upright sound.

    I tossed the drum track (there's something off with the way iReal drums export to MIDI, and they never work right in GB), and replaced them with a couple of different percussion loops layered together (one is supposed to be a Turkish cymbal pattern, the other is supposed to be "Persian" drumming).

    The guitar part is a cranked Super Reverb model with a long reverb. I didn't shed the tune at all. I just played along with the changes, alternating inside and outside motifs, licks, etc. as a reaction to what I heard in the changes. It sounds like a lot, but I spent a total of about an hour and half on the whole thing, trying to be as "jam"-like as possible.

  11. #10

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    here’s with those changes
    JGBE Virtual Jam (Round 20) - Afternoon In Paris-4b228afd-3334-402c-87f2-1fab0c5ecf22-png

  12. #11

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    Jeff -

    Yes, some of the backing tracks put in C#m7 - F#7. The Grilles chord version also uses that and a Dm7b5 after the AbM7 like the chart above. I have to say I didn't much like the CM7/E of the RB chart although I kept it.

    JGBE Virtual Jam (Round 20) - Afternoon In Paris-aip2-jpg

    I did it that slowly because it was my very first try-out (which I decided to post). I also thought 'at this speed it could be raining!'. But it will get faster, maybe with the alternate chords.

  13. #12

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    John that track was sick!!

    Pushing my cut through. Not a tune I was that familiar with. Felt like playing a mash up of Tune up and Green Dolphin St. I’ll be gone a while, busy week ahead.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    What's that you say about the challenge of not playing something totally square over these changes?

    The bananas are ripe!

    I think that's great. It grooves, it sounds good and you don't know what's coming next. The guitar soars over it.

    I hope that you continue to explore this approach.

  15. #14

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    Triple Jazz -

    Re. the RB chart (post #7) and the other one (post #10)...

    Of course it's not just the changes which are different in these two versions, it's the melody too, especially in the bridge over the C#m7/F#7. The alternate version has an E in that bar (23) but it's a G in the RB. So it's not just a question of substituting one set of chords for another, the G wouldn't fit over C#m7/F#7.

    The 1949 John Lewis/JJ Johnson/Sonny Stitt version plays the chart in post #10 so I'm using that from now on. Thanks.

  16. #15

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    Rag, that’s interesting, I didn’t notice that. I listened to that Lewis recording for reference and I didn’t like it right off the head. It was too busy and I couldn’t latch on. I found a MJQ version I liked but it was a Mariam McParkland cut I eventually drew inspiration from. However, she does it in F


  17. #16

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    Yes, I liked that too, good version. Maybe more New York than Paris but who's counting? :-)

  18. #17

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    I decided to do the living room couch version.

    That's the Comins GCS-1, ME80 (adding reverb only) and Little Jazz. Frankly, I thought the tone came out a little harsh sounding and I started thinking about getting an archtop, conveniently forgetting that I have one.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar


    I decided to do the living room couch version.

    That's the Comins GCS-1, ME80 (adding reverb only) and Little Jazz. Frankly, I thought the tone came out a little harsh sounding and I started thinking about getting an archtop, conveniently forgetting that I have one.
    WoW! This is some top shelf stuff, everything I think is great about jazz guitar, chord arrangement, unaccompanied solo, beautiful feel. Excellent cut. Those chords are awesome, what are they, some kind of close interval stuff?

  20. #19

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    Let's have some fun!


  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple_Jazz
    WoW! This is some top shelf stuff, everything I think is great about jazz guitar, chord arrangement, unaccompanied solo, beautiful feel. Excellent cut. Those chords are awesome, what are they, some kind of close interval stuff?
    Thank for the kind words.

    As far as the chords go, I hope this isn't too much information:

    I think "close interval" refers to Johnny Smith style, where he plays everything in root position, like 1 3 5 7 in one octave? Is that right?

    In any case, what I was doing is a little easier to grab. At the beginning, for example, I played xx 9 9 10 10. That's B E A D. It's a stack of fourths and easy to play on guitar. If you imagine a C in the bass, it's a C69maj7(no 5th). But, all I'm thinking is that it's a stack of 4ths using all white keys (notes of Cmajor). I know from experience that putting the D on top will sound good in the key of C.

    I then move it to xx7788. A D G C. It's C69 in this context, but again all I'm thinking is stack of 4ths in the key of C. And, I'm beginning to make a melodic line with the highest notes in each chord.

    Next chord, I want to have a B as the highest note (soprano voice). I think I did that with xx5557 which is an old fashioned Cmaj7. I might have played xx5757 which is G D E B. That's a voicing that looks like G6 or Em7, but if you imagine a C in the bass it's Cmaj9.

    Then, I wanted a G in the soprano and I played x7758x, E A C G, which is C6 or Am7.

    Then down to Eb in the soprano with x3334x, which is another 4th stack C F Bb Eb, or Cm(add4). I guess that keeping the idea of stacked 4ths, but this time making them work as a minor chord helps with the overall harmonic consistency, but when I played it I didn't think any of that, I just felt it would sound better with an F on the D string rather than a G (which would make it a commonplace Cm7).

    So, basically, I'm playing major (as opposed to dominant) C chords. Basically, adding a 6, 9 and/or maj7 to a C triad, give or take a note. I'm doing it with common inversions of those chords plus I'm using stacked fourths here and there, which gives it a little more modern sound (although I think Eddie Lang used them in the 30s).

    Later I used Dm7b5 to G13b9 as xx3454 and on the inner set of 4 strings as x8999x with some pinkie wiggling to get the Bb.

    To learn this approach, start with G7 played xx3433. Then, make it G6 by lowering the F to an E. xx2433. Then move the notes you need to get Gm7, Gm6, Gm7b5, Gmaj7, Gminman7, G7#11, G7b13, G7sus, G7susb9, G9, Gm9, Gminmaj9 etc. and any other version you want. Memorize in 12 keys.

    Then, move that xx3433 up to the next G7 voicing. That is, for each string, find the next higher note in the chord. So, for example, the high G moves up to a B at the 7th fret. You get xx5767. Do all the same adjustments to get the other chords. Then move it up again. And, again.

    Where you can, use a grip that leaves a finger, usually the pinkie, free.

    So, if you bar xx3433, you can use your pinkie or third finger to put an Ab, A or Bb in the chord.

    When you play xx5767, you can stretch to get a C# in the soprano.

    You continue that way, until you have a grip for G7 with any note of the chromatic scale on top. F# won't work well, but eleven other notes will.

    Now, you have a way of playing any chord with any note on top (well, almost). You can use it in chord melody -- because now you can get any melody note over just about any chord. You can use it in comping. The idea is that the comping should be melodic too -- so that it would be interesting even without a solo or melody over it. You can create melody with your comping by paying attention to the soprano voice -- and, with enough knowledge of the notes/grips, you can get the rest of the chords voice-led nicely. And, finally, you can do solos in chords.

    Quick story. My teacher when I was around 16 was Carl Barry (a great player and still around). Carl studied with Chuck Wayne (whose system I just partly described as best I can remember it). One night, Chuck came to the bar in Bensonhurst where Carl had a gig. I believe Chuck had just finished the Ed Sullivan show earlier that evening. Jack Wilkins was on bass. Chuck sat in and I remember being astounded by his ability to play a solo in 4 note voicings. I was underage and it was the first time I'd ever been in a bar or tasted beer. I knew Chuck only as "my teacher's teacher" and, of course, I knew that the Sullivan show was an important gig. But, it was years later I learned who he was in the world of jazz. What a resume!

    Just before Covid, I was in NYC and went to hear Strings Attached at the Zinc Bar. Jack Wilkins, Vic Juris, Joe Cohn and Mark Whitfield. David Gibson on drums -- don't know the bassist. Carl came in that night and we had a nice conversation -- first time I'd seen him in more than 50 years. Nice moment. Vic has since passed on. What a great player he was!

    Carl and Jack, btw, were young guys teaching at a neighborhood music school called Duet Music and later Sid Margolis. It was the place all the local kids went for lessons. Sid had been the CBS Radio staff guitarist on the Arthur Godfrey show. Just the neighborhood place and not in the hipster section of Brooklyn even now. But, it was NYC.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 05-30-2021 at 04:14 PM.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    The bananas are ripe!

    I think that's great. It grooves, it sounds good and you don't know what's coming next. The guitar soars over it.

    I hope that you continue to explore this approach.
    \

    Thanks, I feel much the same about yours, especially the chord-solo intro.

    Jeff: I like the clave thing. Apart from just generally sounding good the way you generally do, it's cool the way you kept it together with out an explicit pulse.

    Rag: I though the first take was maybe a bit on the Afternoon in Pere Lachaise end of things (minus Jim Morrison), but I like the way you picked up the energy on the second one.

    Triple: I'd kind of repeat what I said about the previous one here. The overall feel and phrasing of it is right on. Again, I think there are some spots where you're a little uncertain of what to play, but the energy and shape of it were very good.

    I'll try to get something a little more conventional down ... or not.

  23. #22

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    Trying out my recording gear, so I thought I'd post this attempt. Recorded the chords with a looper and did a chorus over it. Timing could be better, and there are a few human noises, but I let it stand.



    AiP was one of the first jazz tunes I learned. Hopefully I've improved a little bit since then.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    \

    Triple: I'd kind of repeat what I said about the previous one here. The overall feel and phrasing of it is right on. Again, I think there are some spots where you're a little uncertain of what to play, but the energy and shape of it were very good.
    I appreciate your feedback, I know what you mean. When I have time to think it over and come up with ideas I have a nice take. The second This I Dig of you take felt good to me but the first one, much like this AiP were lacking. It seems to be the case when I just freely improvise without thinking about it versus taking the time to put ideas and themes forward the free improv always suffers. I want to be able to just come up with great stuff on the spot but I guess that’s more elusive than one would think. What would be the answer, learning licks? I’ve been in the process of practicing arpeggios (M, m, V7, and. m7b5) in different keys as Reg had suggested. I found they give me nice escape routes when I get stuck in an upper register but so far they’re not helping my overall creative process for improvising. I’ve been very resistant to learning lines because they’re already someone else’s.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple_Jazz
    What would be the answer, learning licks? I’ve been very resistant to learning lines because they’re already someone else’s.
    Been meaning to post. Things at work are... not great, to say the least.

    Anyway, I think the answer is a resounding "yes!"

    Learn lines. I'll risk another conversation with King Lear here (not you, or any member on this current thread), but lines teach you so much more than you could possibly learn from theory alone. Sound is more powerful and immediate for me when I play. Thinking of theory and trying to picture chords slows me down. Everyone learns different, so I can't speak for your process. I'm saying that as a grade school learning specialist. But sounds work for me.

    Anyway, lines teach you more than notes. Vocabulary, when you learn it from the records, teaches you rhythm, articulation, dynamics, punctuation, contour/ shape, and how to put together a phrase. Theory, even at it's most advanced stage, can't teach you the nuance that you glean from vocabulary.

    Here is a video that resonated with me today that connects to what you are talking about, Triple:



    That first comment... that's me Sometimes I'm an ass. It's true. Everyone I've studied with, regardless of instrument, they never go beyond fundamentals in theory. Knowing how to spell chords, how to identify chord progressions, and basic scales... that's foundational stuff. But getting hung up on theory at the expense of listening to the music you love...

    That's my perspective. I know some on the forum share that perspective. I know some can't wait to tell me I "live on another planet." Regardless, listening to the music should never be a novel idea. At least, this alien thinks so
    Last edited by PickingMyEars; 05-30-2021 at 11:42 PM.

  26. #25

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    Melody is still coming together. Worth learning. John Lewis was quite the writer and a damn great jazz musician, even beyond MJQ!



    Some of my own thoughts on my tune...

    1. The feel is... almost too swinging--in a bad way. I noticed when I play unaccompanied, my time is better. Sometimes I get too into the groove and dance. The result is a time feel that isn't as focused as it could be. Concentration. Use the schwartz... Luke!

    2. Melody. Still getting it under my fingers.

    3. Hearing the tune in my head. I need to spend a little more time engraining the sound of the tune into my inner ear. Saw a Hal Galper video where he said something like (cue Boston accent)"if you are reading the changes off the page, you ain't improvising."

    4. Even though I screwed up the melody head in, my solo sounded more locked into the groove in the beginning. Towards the end, I lost the groove. Next lesson, I am finally addressing my double time playing--it's more than playing as fast as you can. Next tune, I will play more double time and such... at least, I'll try.

    Great pick. I might do my copying assignment for this tune instead of "This I Dig of You."

    Mind is in other places these days...
    Last edited by PickingMyEars; 05-31-2021 at 11:05 AM.