The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    It's just all different ways of internalizing time, syncing up to it.

    You might count 1-2-3-4...or tap on 1 and 3...or 2 and 4...or just one...

    You might feel a 2-3 clave...a 3-2 clave...a tumbao...all of these things are here basically to remind you, however you work on time...WORK ON TIME.

    I will attempt to put a swing/clave video together tomorrow, as someone else has asked me to, as well. It ALL comes from NOLA...

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankhond
    Wow, lots of great responses, thank you everyone!

    Here is the video and the "well established teacher" I was thinking of. He starts talking about counting around 1.50.



    So in my case, I have no problems counting when slowly "programming" new stuff. For example I'm working on Barry Greene's comping and he does a lot interplay between chords on 1 and chords on the last 8th note in a measure. I can count and play slowly, but when playing up to speed, no way I can count it like "1-2-3-4" at the same time and also play those chords on the offbeats, it messes me up completely.
    Practice it until you don't muck it up.

    If you are -pushed for time, do this slowly every day. Count the beat, and play on the beat. Easy right? Now play on the 'ands' making sure to swing them.

    It's a bit of a coordination thing with the second at first, but you'l get it -number, chord, number, chord etc

    After that, comping on 4+ while counting is not going to be a problem. Do it with bop heads to really test you. Blues For Alice and Moose the Mooche, Confirmation. All have loads of challenges in.

    I get all my students to do this, and they can do it after practice. Their time also improves markedly. Try it for a few weeks! 5m a day.

    This is one way of working on what's actually the important thing - perception of upbeats. You want to be able to feel the upbeat as something distinct and separate from the downbeat. Being able to feel upbeat and downbeat at the same time is a skill a lot of players lack, but it makes all the difference.

    What I do is tap my foot on 1 and 3, move my body etc. But if I understand you correctly Jeff and Christian, I should also work on counting "1-2-3-4" while playing up to speed?
    Tapping on one and three is a great way to go with faster tempos. I'd count the same as you tap your foot, so for me that's half time for anything north of about 200 bpm. But then you are effectively working on sixteenth syncopations. So it's funk and latin haha don't let the ride cymbal and walking bass fool you. The swing feel is quite subtle at this kind of tempo.

    Yeah so rhythmic independence is often about transferring rhythms from the usual place and putting them somewhere else. What you do with your foot, put that in your voice, what you do on the guitar, try singing while you comp, etc etc. It's fantastic for really sticking down these basics. Tapping your foot is not always as synchronised to one's playing as you might think.

    And then the clave thing. I know what clave is, but I had no idea people think clave when listening to swing. I'll have to listen to stuff and see if I hear it... if someone cares to make a dedicated video explaining it, that would be golden.
    I did a video ages ago but I'm a bit embarrassed of it. I should do a new one.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    It's just all different ways of internalizing time, syncing up to it.

    You might count 1-2-3-4...or tap on 1 and 3...or 2 and 4...or just one...

    You might feel a 2-3 clave...a 3-2 clave...a tumbao...all of these things are here basically to remind you, however you work on time...WORK ON TIME.

    I will attempt to put a swing/clave video together tomorrow, as someone else has asked me to, as well. It ALL comes from NOLA...
    The idea of thinking clave against swing had never occurred to me. It didn't make sense to me until I tried it with a metronome on 2 and 4. I am now a convert. Excellent post. Much appreciated.

  5. #29

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    Drumgenius app is great for this, you just hit the clave button and it superimposes the clave sound over the current drum pattern.

    Counting and find the clave in everything-2ad0e51c-d443-476c-b397-6396f962eec1-jpeg

  6. #30

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    So; with the clave also comes a responsibility not to cross it haha

    Hooray! Something else to worry about ;-)

  7. #31

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    About the clave:


  8. #32

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    Yea... Clave is a pattern, or perception of a pattern that repeats. Typically with a relationship of tension- release.

    It is also usually held together with a Pulse which maintains the stability of the rhythm.

    With jazz and groove players....(like myself)... the clave concept has expanded. The point is to still have the perception of repeat with pulse but we expand the organizations within that Space. Harmony and lengths etc.

    If you ever listen to my playing... I use longer clave type of organization, Rhythmically organized phrasing with repeat or the perception and feel of repeat. Which means I also use Harmonic and melodic Clave for that perception of repeat. Which creates that feel of Locking in. In the pocket etc...

    Helps get rid of that random noodle technique

  9. #33

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    Besides clave (or any other internal rhythm), common ways for me to approach fast tempos and tunes are counting only on the one (so once each bar), and starting to see forms in the tune. These forms would be bigger phrases, chord progressions, a number of bars, etc.. Counting on 2 and 4, as common and beneficial as it is on slow and medium tempos, does have its limits, and i find it destabilizing (and physically tiring) in fast tempos.

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    About the clave:

    Thanks for that, really great. I think I have a few in my head already but it will certainly help me distinguishing some of the more pesky Latin rhythms!


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  11. #35

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    This subject is kinda like a breakthrough for me. When writing solos on music that has no lyrics the clave provides the skeleton on which you can develop. It’s brilliant.

    [edited, to insert ‘no’]
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  12. #36

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    Playing the clave is a really interesting idea. That said, Mr. B, you made it look so easy. I tried it... not so easy.

    Peter Farrell has some interesting concepts on a "jazz clave" as well. Sometimes it sounds like a rock beat, but the groove he describes has some interesting effects on your playing. I think of his approach as a clave, never asked him about the connection:



    Rhythm is the last frontier. Peter Martin and Adam Maness spoke about the primacy of rhythm in a recent episode of "You'll Hear It"... I have to find it. Anyway, they said over and over--a key difference between a pro-level musician and an amateur like me is rhythmic confidence.

    We need a thread on rhythm! Notes, theory, even my beloved ear training, they don't mean jack shite without rhythm and time.

    Getting that "Forward Motion" by Hal Galper in the mail soon. Curious to see what he has to say about linear inertia and the like.

  13. #37

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    Just got Forward Motion: From Bach to Bebop by Hal Galper.

    Typos galore... but damn, does his writing resonate with me.

    Another proponent of 1 and 3... thought that voice had gone extinct.

    Regardless... we need more discussion around rhythm and time around here and less about theory--we already have a good lot of theory everywhere on the internet.

    Who wants to help me start a section devoted to rhythm and time on JGF? We play jazz, fer chrissakes. Shouldn't good rhythm and time be our utmost priority? I can already see the excitement in your eyes

    I, for one, would like to see more discussion about the clave, about rhythmic phrasing, half-time, rhythmic tension and release, singing--or wording rhythm (think "slice of pizza" a la italian chef Dave Frank), and Mike Longo's djembe studies. Whatever happened to that guy who spoke of the South American and African rhythms embedded in jazz? Mr. '77, I know you remember that guy.

    If we never talk about rhythm explicitly, we will never be truly talking about jazz. At least, this alien thinks so.

  14. #38

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    I think the thread on rhythm is this one. In the past I looked for rhythms online but I didn’t find a comprehensive clave based overview. To me the beguine is the hardest-it seems no possibility for variation! Bolero is also kinda stifling. Other interesting thing I find is Bo Didley’s second line is harder than New Orleans second line. And then most claves seem to be 2 bar? That seems to me a key of some sort of understanding their importance. Except John Mellencamp’s clave (this is meant to be funny).


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  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
    Just got Forward Motion: From Bach to Bebop by Hal Galper.

    Typos galore... but damn, does his writing resonate with me.

    Another proponent of 1 and 3... thought that voice had gone extinct.

    Regardless... we need more discussion around rhythm and time around here and less about theory--we already have a good lot of theory everywhere on the internet.

    Who wants to help me start a section devoted to rhythm and time on JGF? We play jazz, fer chrissakes. Shouldn't good rhythm and time be our utmost priority? I can already see the excitement in your eyes

    I, for one, would like to see more discussion about the clave, about rhythmic phrasing, half-time, rhythmic tension and release, singing--or wording rhythm (think "slice of pizza" a la italian chef Dave Frank), and Mike Longo's djembe studies. Whatever happened to that guy who spoke of the South American and African rhythms embedded in jazz? Mr. '77, I know you remember that guy.

    If we never talk about rhythm explicitly, we will never be truly talking about jazz. At least, this alien thinks so.
    I get a big kick out of watching Peter Farrell‘a videos. He taps quarter notes with his foot and makes whatever he plays against that basic pulse sound so damn good. Amongst the current players I’m familiar with, it’s a coin toss between Peter and Bobby Broom for “best” time feel. Jimmy Bruno is another quarter note tapper.

  16. #40

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    I think Peter Farrell even says in the video I posted that jazz, just like most music, is rooted in 1 and 3. 2 and 4 are the accents, the up beats. That said, if you can't feel 1 and 3 rooted somewhere in your body--2 and 4 has no rhythmic context.

    Some jazz musicians live by 2 and 4. Others swear by 1 and 3. I've found that it's easier to control my swing and time feel with 1 and 3 because I can dial in the swing feel. If I feel 2 and 4 too much, my playing gets too loopsided and I fall victim to triplet-itis. Wes, Red Garland, Erroll Garner, Wynton Kelly, Oscar Peterson, and even the Basie Big Band--that swing feel is always focused and totally in control. No triplet-itis from them folk... I am going to make triplet-itis a new diagnosis in the DSM-V, or whatever edition they are up to these days

    Eck, I meant that we should have a section on the forum JUST devoted to rhythm and time. I'm not talking about sight reading, I know we have a section for that. The more we talk rhythm and time, the more we can grow as musicians.

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
    Just got Forward Motion: From Bach to Bebop by Hal Galper.

    Typos galore... but damn, does his writing resonate with me.

    Another proponent of 1 and 3... thought that voice had gone extinct.

    Regardless... we need more discussion around rhythm and time around here and less about theory--we already have a good lot of theory everywhere on the internet.

    Who wants to help me start a section devoted to rhythm and time on JGF? We play jazz, fer chrissakes. Shouldn't good rhythm and time be our utmost priority? I can already see the excitement in your eyes

    I, for one, would like to see more discussion about the clave, about rhythmic phrasing, half-time, rhythmic tension and release, singing--or wording rhythm (think "slice of pizza" a la italian chef Dave Frank), and Mike Longo's djembe studies. Whatever happened to that guy who spoke of the South American and African rhythms embedded in jazz? Mr. '77, I know you remember that guy.

    If we never talk about rhythm explicitly, we will never be truly talking about jazz. At least, this alien thinks so.
    I think you may have dreamed that ‘77 guy. Never mention him again, or you will receive a call from the authorities.

    You are thinking of Bonsritmos. Here’s a video on the subject. He was discussing Candomble Ketu rhythms which originate from Afro-Brazilian religious ceremonies in Northern Brazil and are the origin of musics such as Samba. He noticed many hook ups and echoes with African-American musics including jazz, which is down to common West African heritage, presumably, rather than a direct influence.

    While Clave is a Cuban concept, Brazilian rhythms often have a two bar directional structure that maps onto the clave. Opanije, for instance works with a 2-3 clave, many bossas have a 3-2 structure and so on.

    So it’s analogous to US jazz where the clave is latent in the music but not usually discussed in those terms.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 06-03-2021 at 04:05 AM.

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eck
    And then most claves seem to be 2 bar?
    yes, the 3 - 2 and the 2 - 3 patterns are spread over 2 bars each.

    to repeat the clave 2 times gives way for a nice 4 bar groove then,

    with a slight variation to keep it interesting.


    I understand Clave as a wave pattern, on which our music is happening.

    it is the way the music does breathe, you can not play across it ...


    if you want to get into it, it is higly recommended to stay with the 3 - 2 at first, until you have that dialed in 100%,

    then proceed with 2 - 3


    the difference of the two: ( imo ) the 3 - 2 Clave does start on the one, whereas the 2 - 3 does not.


    It is important to alyways know and hear where the one is at, but to not play it.


    I suggest to get fun with rythms without a guitar, a conga or djembe drum is a good thing.





    great practice tool, where the single instruments can be switched on and off, tempo can be adjusted ect ...

    just great ...


    The Salsa Beat Machine 🎼🎹





    ( "Salsa" is happening in 2 - 3, easy to hear if you turn the tempo down ... )

    ( turn everything off but the Clave-sticks, the piano and the microphone, and slow it way down to hear the 2-3 Clave pattern then )


    ( for the rythm noobs, start with 3 - 2 )

  19. #43

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    my favorite video ... clave guy to the very left ...







    ( he plays 3 - 2, takes him some seconds to get there )

  20. #44

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    get into the groove, boy, you gotta prove, your love to me ...






  21. #45

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    Look up tresillo in Wiki.. almost everything is extrapolated or derived from tresillo (including clave) .
    I never think of "clave" when playing, I leave that specific tweak of tresillo to the percussionists. Clave is popular more with teachers than players.

  22. #46

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    This thread is fascinating, thank you everyone - like a door to dimension I was barely suspecting exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    I get a big kick out of watching Peter Farrell‘a videos. He taps quarter notes with his foot and makes whatever he plays against that basic pulse sound so damn good. Amongst the current players I’m familiar with, it’s a coin toss between Peter and Bobby Broom for “best” time feel. Jimmy Bruno is another quarter note tapper.
    Judy Charmichael whose time feel and articulation I find to be perfect taps every quarter too - at this tempos for me it is just barely possible physically (will keep trying).


  23. #47

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    You wouldn’t believe the flame wars about how and if to tap one’s foot haha.

    I think if you actually practice playing with your foot on the quarters that might be good? I mean there’s good in time, synchronised tapping and bad, nervous tic, out of time tapping?

    But it’s crazy. I come from the school of thought that you should feel uptempo in half time. 1 and 3; so Hal Galper, Barry Harris etc.

    In fact I’ve seen people do all types of things; quarters (which can be crazy! Watch George Shearing on an uptempo tune) at tempos where it would seem that surely their playing would reflect that frenzied activity, and it doesn’t. On the other hand I’ve even seen players tap on 2 and 4 and sound great. Imagine! (Afaik Ron Carter is a 2 and 4 guy.)

    Others say tapping is a bad thing and you should make yourself not do it. I have to say I always think those players probably don’t have the best dance moves.

    if enjoying a physical relationship to rhythm is something that some people see as a weakness in musicianship and I can’t help but think the whole thing as a bit repressed and buttoned up. Rhythm to me is about the body, which is why some clever people get intimidated by it. (But that’s not to say there’s no science to it.) If you ‘step’ in time while playing, I think that’s probably the sort of thing.

    So..... no idea lol

  24. #48

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    To tap foot for me is exercise in rhythm discipline: it is easy to let go and to play from the head (or worse, from the hands).
    JC tapping every beat makes me curious how it is possible at all and what is the impact - not that I've decided that I must do the same if this works for her. But she is extremely good and there must be a relation. Otherwise, half time is the way to count and feel at tempos for me also.

    And I'm convinced too that groove is function of body and when somebody says that one should not move when playing - that are obliviously different preferences for music coming from different perspective.

  25. #49

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    although that said Bird stood completely still when playing

  26. #50

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    I can tap my foot, but I do not have to.

    I don't need to move my body, because I feel the underlying rythm all the time,

    everything I play is connected / related to it.



    the trick is to get the playing into a rock-solid groove, at very low speeds.

    just you and the instrument, with nothing else to help you, no backing track, no metronome.

    if you can not get the stuff into a groove while playing very slow,

    you will not get it into any groove at speed.

    It will sound like mud, like vomitting notes all over the place.