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  1. #76

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    Try F# blues over the F3 to B7 thing. Or B blues.

    Just because it's a blues scale doesn't mean you gotta play BB King licks...

    So the whole tune...Dmajor/Dmajor blues, D7, Gmaj, Gm, F#blues, E blues, maybe an A7 to D blues.

    I'll try and do one like that. Ragman will probably block me.

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  3. #77

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    Thanks to all of you for your replies and tips. I will try them all. Straight dom7 scale material over the chords from F#7 to E7 didn't sound right to me - sounded better when I used the b3 on most chords which implied 7#2 harmony. It's the part of the tune that will need a bit getting used to before I can improvise comfortably over it.
    I appreciate all of your input.

    Edited to add: I was thinking of F#7 as sub for C7, then chromatically to B7, then to to E7 as a sub for Bb7 but that may be a little too far fetched or at least too complicated thinking....?

  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Ragman will probably block me.
    That's a good idea, how do I do that?

    NEVER!

  5. #79

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    I'm still fooling around with this and we're nearly done with it so here we are. Long, could be faster maybe, but it sort of works.


  6. #80

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    Not too thrilled with what I was able to crap out for this tune tonight. I may revisit, but having a hard time finding my bearings so far.

  7. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Try F# blues over the F3 to B7 thing. Or B blues.

    Just because it's a blues scale doesn't mean you gotta play BB King licks...

    So the whole tune...Dmajor/Dmajor blues, D7, Gmaj, Gm, F#blues, E blues, maybe an A7 to D blues.

    I'll try and do one like that. Ragman will probably block me.
    I can definitely hear most of this. Funny that when I “play jazz” very little blues comes out despite the fact that until I started making a dedicated effort to play jazz (maybe 8-9 years ago) just about everything I played was blues based: straight blues, blues rock, funkier stuff, modal jam band crap, etc.: 90% pentatonic with gradual discovery over time of dorian and mixolydian-sounding extensions.

    Tonight playing over that Bb7-A7 it clicked that maybe I should be thinking in my old way over those chords, and not struggling to shoehorn a melody based on chord tones.

  8. #82

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    rp did a good version. Makes it look effortless :-)

    JGBE Virtual Jam (Round 18) - Wave

  9. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    I can definitely hear most of this. Funny that when I “play jazz” very little blues comes out despite the fact that until I started making a dedicated effort to play jazz (maybe 8-9 years ago) just about everything I played was blues based: straight blues, blues rock, funkier stuff, modal jam band crap, etc.: 90% pentatonic with gradual discovery over time of dorian and mixolydian-sounding extensions.

    Tonight playing over that Bb7-A7 it clicked that maybe I should be thinking in my old way over those chords, and not struggling to shoehorn a melody based on chord tones.
    I feel like, in general, if a tune has a lot of chords i try NOT to chase all of them, and if a tune doesn't have a lot of chords, I like to add some in

  10. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I feel like, in general, if a tune has a lot of chords i try NOT to chase all of them, and if a tune doesn't have a lot of chords, I like to add some in
    That Bb7-A7 was illuminating to me because once I started hearing it as resolving to D blues instead of just two “random” descending dominants, I realized that the function of those two chords was more important (and “easier”) to play over. Simple is better for my pea brain.

  11. #85

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    Try thinking... F#7 C7 / B7 F7/ then E9sus E9.... So typical Blues I7 IV7 with Typical Approach Chords.

    A Vanilla Dom Chord going to it's Target as in F#7 to B7 easily functions as subdominant Blues I7 IV7.

    Which eventually might open the door to just seeing and hearing

    III / VI / II / V / I with typical Borrowing

    Or you can develop the Line Cliche implied by Chord Pattern

    Yea wzpgsr... Chord Tones are just playing what becomes obvious from simple analysis. Yes beautiful.... and also great for insomnia.
    Last edited by Reg; 05-20-2021 at 02:56 PM.

  12. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Try thinking... F#7 C7 / B7 E7 / then E9sus E9.... So typical Blues I7 IV7 with Typical Approach Chords.
    I get F#7 C9 B9 .... but that E7 -- did you mean F7?

    I hear that clearly as B7b9, but I can't stretch my ear to hear an E7 there.

  13. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I get F#7 C9 B9 .... but that E7 -- did you mean F7?

    I hear that clearly as B7b9, but I can't stretch my ear to hear an E7 there.
    yea Rick. F7 to E9sus E9
    someone gets it. And you always say you don’t get theory.
    thanks

  14. #88

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    F#13, F#7b13, B9, B7b9 has an internal chromatic line ... D#, D, C#, C. Played with some accents as follows /ox ox xo xo / xo xo xo-oo /

    That's a Brazilian cliche and, to my ear, it's part of this tune.

    So, there's a choice to make about how closely to stick with the tune vs eliminating the cliche and playing over a modified set of chords.

    Bruce Forman talks about "playing the song" rather than doing something completely unrelated over the same, or similar, changes.

    I've played this song for so long, it sings itself in my head when I'm soloing, so I stay pretty close to the tune. So, I'm going to phrase these 2 bars with the guidetones and those accents. That doesn't mean I'll play them, but I'll have them in my head when I construct the line.

    But, of course, somebody can do a great version either way.

    BTW, Joe Pass recorded this tune, double time feel, on Tudo Bem, a record he did, late 70s I think, with a Brazilian rhythm section. Great record.

  15. #89

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    Yea... that was the line cliche I mentioned above... It's one of many besides the 2 standards most are aware of. If you spend a lot of time comping, (like me), You can play Line cliches or chromatic internal lines, or personally I like on top...on almost any chord pattern or passage. I tend to use with montuno style when internal etc.. (the internal line or Line cliche is also in the other changes I suggested). Although I was trying to help players see the standard harmonic motion of the tune... with a Blues reference. I guess I need to post an example of wave as a blues tune. I actually have very physical understandings of what makes a Blues Tune. (besides the dirt and grease, depending where your from).

    I can go either way with the play the tune thing.... after you've played tunes a million times... they can get old. I get it that great performers can raise the level of performance and become fun to play, and I try and do that... I'm not Great... But generally can raise the level of performance. And again, personally.... part of the fun is for the tune to still be recognizable when making changes, the arranging thing.

  16. #90

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    Tudo Bem's on You Tube, I've listened to it a lot. But I'd forgotten it had Wave on it at 9.56. I think the chords have been simplified.



    I never took to it much because it's all a bit breathless for me :-)

  17. #91

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    I guess you needed to be part of the gig scene in the 70's to appreciate that album.

  18. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    This tune really lends itself for guitar accompaniment, so I did a split video. A challenge on Brazilian tunes for me is to try to play simpler, more melodically, with less mainstream jazz vocabulary, cause they do use their own language, which is extremely sophisticated rhythmically, and simpler harmonically.
    I totally agree rhythmic melodies are the most defining feature of Brazilian, but there are notorious exceptions to the "simpler harmonically" part.
    Hermeto Pascoal and Hamilton de Holanda are extremely influential on all other musicians in the country and I think they have a very sophisticated harmonic phrasing composing and improvising.
    I don't know of course to what you are comparing to but I wouldn't think about Pixinguinha's lines from the 20's as simple harmonically; neither the 30's radio samba tunes when comparing to other folk music of the same time.

    Just saying this to argue you can play very sophisticated harmonics and lines and still sound very Brazilian. Although may be in a very different language (different tensions and cliches?) as in American jazz in general.