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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Not always

    Again, looking at Parker; The b7 on I is rarely used as a blue note in the Parkers blues heads for instance. Normally it appears in bar4, acting functionally.

    I7 is more a 60s thing. And Jobim was influenced by Bird and swing

    For bird the blues usually enters in on chord IV, this is as true of his non blues forms such as Confirmation. You get the b5 and b3 of the key on that chord.

    there’s a lot of blues flavour in Wave, especially in the dominant cycle prog.

    Prez was pretty bluesy and we often played IV as a major seventh. As did Parker sometimes too.


    yea we are definitely in different worlds...

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    No blues sound then. Defining blues by sheer form is a little shallow in my opinion...
    so how do you define the blues sound then? the changes, the melody? blues for alice has changes that are closer to a tin pan alley standard than a blues. i doubt if e.g. fred mcdowell would have called or accepted it as a blues. is the melody of c-jam blues bluesy enough to be called a blues?

    surely a lad from brazil is allowed to have a different take on the blues than a guy who has actually been picking the cotton?

  4. #28

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    Obviously, it's not a literal 12-bar blues with all dom7 chords, but you can think of it as a blues variant, or blues structure with major harmony, or a sublimated blues, or some other fancy word for "like a blues under the surface." Or not.

    But it's a fact that for a lot of people being told "Wave is a really a blues with a bridge" causes aha! moments and helps them solve a tune that had stumped them. This is a common thing in the real world, not just an internet debate.

    It's not ultimately a _debate_ at all. It's a song. The only arguments about what it is structurally or harmonically that count are demonstrations via playing it.

    Too much talk, not enough playing. Let's hear empirical examples of your analyses of Wave.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove
    Here's some couch noodling the wife decided to record on her phone one night.


    Yeah, great stuff. Love the way you sing and play, as well as the way you show that Wave is not necessarily a blues .

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    so how do you define the blues sound then? the changes, the melody? blues for alice has changes that are closer to a tin pan alley standard than a blues. i doubt if e.g. fred mcdowell would have called or accepted it as a blues. is the melody of c-jam blues bluesy enough to be called a blues?

    surely a lad from brazil is allowed to have a different take on the blues than a guy who has actually been picking the cotton?
    Without wanting to go into further detail, starting a (probably heated) discussion and derail this thread: there is a certain sound to what I'd perceive as blues (apart from the fact that there are more than a handful of definitions what blues is...). Blue notes? Dissonances like e.g. b3 against major 3? A certain style of phrasing, dynamics (which are often painfully missing in the playing of rock guitarists who claim to be playing blues)? There is a lot of music that doesn't stick to the 12 bar form and still I would perceive it as blues. Maybe this could make an interesting thread of its own?


    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    blues structure with major harmony
    Yes. Sticking my head out here for you all to cut it off: does a 32 bar AABA structure with ii - V - I changes make it jazz?

    If anybody perceives Wave as a blues: OK then - I wouldn't argue with any of you but I don't.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO

    Yes. Sticking my head out here for you all to cut it off: does a 32 bar AABA structure with ii - V - I changes make it jazz?

    If anybody perceives Wave as a blues: OK then - I wouldn't argue with any of you but I don't.
    but without going into the stylistic minutiae, there is clearly something called the "blues form", while there is no "jazz form"

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Bebop blues in D (lol) ala Parker

    D6 | Em7 A7 | D6 | Am7 D7 |
    G7 | (Gm7) | F#m7 | B7 |
    Em7 | A7 | D6 | F#m7 C#7 |

    Wave

    Dmaj7 | Bbo7 | Am7 | D7
    Gmaj7 | Gm7 | F#7 | B7 |
    E7 | Bb7 A7 | Dm7 G7 | Dm7 G7 |

    I few like a lot of people don’t know that first variant (I didn’t) but actually it fits some of the common Parker heads better than the standard ‘jazz edu’ changes, and is obviously closer to Wave, the main difference are some chord quality changes, specifically the Gmaj7, F#7, E7 and perhaps most importantly the modal interchange to Dm7 G7 at the end.

    To me those changes are a sort of missing link... for Blues for Alice changes too.
    I'd already worked that one out. But the thing is that it sort of makes Parker the authority, the yardstick, of what a different kind of blues should be. I don't see why he should be. I mean, by that measure you could re-write anything between the I, IV and V. Does that automatically make it a blues?

    Like I said, you can't play it as a blues - well, not without a lot of jiggery-pokery - and I'm not sure that isn't the litmus test really.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    No blues sound then. Defining blues by sheer form is a little shallow in my opinion...
    Quite. That's all my point, really.

  10. #34

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    OK, it's a blues... according to some people :-)

  11. #35

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    This was years ago, for "Practical standards" thread. Based on Waves chords (as presented by Wizard), only using just 12 bars of it. But then, it's all reggae, anyhow ...

    VladanMovies & CCC - Car Camera Clips: Driving from Koper Slovenia to Verona Italy, 21. Jun 2015


    My Band camp

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    but without going into the stylistic minutiae, there is clearly something called the "blues form"
    Absolutely and I have collected a good handful of recordings that use it to convince guitar students that they have to learn the form.

    The Clash, Queen, Michael Jackson for example - they all have used it at one time without writing or recording blues actually ....

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    This was years ago, for "Practical standards" thread. Based on Waves chords (as presented by Wizard), only using just 12 bars of it. But then, it's all reggae, anyhow ...

    VladanMovies & CCC - Car Camera Clips: Driving from Koper Slovenia to Verona Italy, 21. Jun 2015


    My Band camp
    At the risk (I don't want to push it) of flogging it all to death, Vladan's reggae version just shows - to me, anyway - that it's not the chords, it's the style. That tune is reggae, couldn't be anything else.

    So it's not blues by any stretch. That's why... I expect you've guessed the point so I'll shut up now. Your dreams have come true

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I'd already worked that one out. But the thing is that it sort of makes Parker the authority, the yardstick, of what a different kind of blues should be. I don't see why he should be. I mean, by that measure you could re-write anything between the I, IV and V. Does that automatically make it a blues?

    Like I said, you can't play it as a blues - well, not without a lot of jiggery-pokery - and I'm not sure that isn't the litmus test really.
    I’m identifying some stylistic features of how Bird plays a standard blues, and showing how Jobim isn’t too far away from that. Parker’s understanding of the blues features a maj7 tonality on the I chord and sometimes on IV.

    This was partly in response to what John A was saying about Parker, which I felt was placing a non existent divide between Birds blues playing and, well, everything else he did.

    If people are anything like I used to be, you look at a Bird blues in a book and read F7 and leave it at that, rather than looking at the line Parker actually played and the harmony it outlines. (And sometimes you get Bird playing a maj7 tonality over a 7#11 comp or something lol)

    More modern players might see the blues tonality as substantially different to that of a major key standard but this wasn’t a thing, I suspect until the post-modal era (don’t know for sure tho.) Anyway, I view the Wave A section as basically being a variation of a Parker style blues. And it is bluesy! Sure you be won’t be able to plonk a minor blues scale on everything ... but that’s not what jazz blues playing (or even GOOD blues playing) is to me anyway. Ask BB or Eric, they know how to use the major blues scale.

    listen to Charlie Christian, he tends to favour a major6 sound with a b3 for example - the major blues scale. (Sounds great on Wave.) Lonnie Johnson also often favoured the same scale. And you aren’t going to tell me he isn’t bluesy. And back then many standards were super bluesy - Lady be Good for instance.
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-15-2021 at 02:22 PM.

  15. #39

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    Until the National Bureau of Standards provides a legal definition of "Blues", we are arguing about something undefined.

    And, when NBS does provide a definition, people will still disagree.

    My take: the form is structurally similar to a blues, but the sound is not what I usually think of as a blues.

    I think Jobim could be very bluesy, for example, in So Tinha.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 05-15-2021 at 05:17 PM.

  16. #40

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    Look - try this, if you got to play blues vocab through it

    D major blues/B minor blues on the first few chords,

    swap to D minor blues on the Gm

    Nail the D minor blues esp over the Bb7 A7 and Dm G7

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    so how do you define the blues sound then? the changes, the melody? blues for alice has changes that are closer to a tin pan alley standard than a blues. i doubt if e.g. fred mcdowell would have called or accepted it as a blues. is the melody of c-jam blues bluesy enough to be called a blues?

    surely a lad from brazil is allowed to have a different take on the blues than a guy who has actually been picking the cotton?
    Not to mention the tune literally does a massive blues lick on the Bb7 A7. It’s a damn sight more bluesy than C jam if that’s your yardstick.

    One problem (I think) is when players don’t have a concept of how to stylistically apply blues vocab on tunes with changes tastefully. So they can tend to file ‘blues’ as one thing and ‘standards’ as another.... Not sure if there are many books on this?

    And actually boilerplate minor blues language rarely sounds that great on an actual blues tunes either for more than a chorus or two. That’s not just a jazz thing- as I say, skilled blues players all understand how to mix major and minor, and even outline chords.

    vis a vis Parker, FWIW Blues for Alice is really not that different from Parker's standard ‘blowing’ version of a 12 bar... which is sort of a point I was making. The main, perhaps only, change is the move to minor in bar 3. You often hear a biiim7 in bar 8, too in the ‘standard’ version.

    Anyway, doesn’t matter, your point stands... but I would also say I don’t think many died in the wool blues men would be terribly interested in playing Billie’s Bounce either lol.
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-15-2021 at 02:46 PM.

  18. #42

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    Ok first time effort. Written via short improv

    Tried to add some altered sounds to the V's.

    Any constructive criticism welcome.

    Just one A section

    https://youtube.com/shorts/OwOqC1vMaWw?feature=share

    Edited for spelling

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker

    Any constructive criticism welcome.
    Have you tried just playing the chord tones? That is, outlining the chords as they arrive? Not all and every note necessarily, but enough to sound like you're on the harmony at that point?

    This kind of thing:



    You'll feel like you're actually playing what's there, which is a good feeling.

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Have you tried just playing the chord tones? That is, outlining the chords as they arrive? Not all and every note necessarily, but enough to sound like you're on the harmony at that point?

    This kind of thing:



    You'll feel like you're actually playing what's there, which is a good feeling.
    I'll try that. Thank you.

  21. #45

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    Lol, in the time it took to record this and upload it, Christian made his post about going from major to minor blues...which is exactly what I do on the first A.

    Its not a "blues," but it's absolutely a blues form, which is great for orienting yourself. And there's plenty of blues in it.



    I'll take a listen to everyone else tonight, didn't want to be influenced
    Last edited by mr. beaumont; 05-15-2021 at 04:17 PM.

  22. #46

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    https://www.soundclick.com/artist/de...?bandID=562588

    Should be the first tune on the list. (EDIT: Now the one with the solo is second -- comping only is first).

    I know there's a better way to post this, but I haven't figured it out yet.

    I made my own backing track for this one. I exported midi from IRealPro into Musescore. Edited it trying to get a bass line and double time feel drums. I gave up on that and exported bass, drums and a tamborim pattern that I couldn't get any louder -- into Reaper. I then added the comping and the lead guitar, both with the Yamaha Pacifica 012 into the Boss ME80, right into the Focusrite 2i2.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 05-16-2021 at 12:57 PM.

  23. #47

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    So here's an A section with chord tones. As you can hear I lost my way a little near the middle but picked it up again.

    Hard not playing vibrato as you can see by my half-hearted attempt. I caught myself going for it then got stuck in the middle

    All constructive criticism welcome


  24. #48

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    Here's another crack at it, this time electric and a slightly different approach.



    PS: For this, I took one of the backing tracks on youtube, shortened it, slowed it down a hair, and made a vamp at the end (but still just a quick take, not endlessly laboring over takes). If anyone wants to use this as a backing track PM and I'll get it to you somehow.

  25. #49

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    The clams are complimentary on our cruise ship


  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker
    So here's an A section with chord tones. As you can hear I lost my way a little near the middle but picked it up again.

    Hard not playing vibrato as you can see by my half-hearted attempt. I caught myself going for it then got stuck in the middle

    All constructive criticism welcome

    Tone is good. Note choices are solid. The only thing I would suggest is trying to make it swing a little harder. It's rooted in samba -- that is, dance music. Listening to samba drums might help a bit -- to get that syncopated dance feel into it.