View Poll Results: Time it takes to learn pro level Jazz improv?
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Yeah I suppose I was just drawing a distinction between my time travelling around Europe playing music and earning most of my income from gigs with my situation today when I'm averaging a gig a week at the most and it's the teaching that's my primary income.
Not that the way I lived ten years ago would be compatible with my family life now, and I think most musicians go through a similar life cycle (I also started quite late.)
I would say I enjoy teaching more than playing music I'm not passionate about, which was often the way in the past. Not everyone shares my priorities of course.
So to come back to the OP, if you are serious about playing professionally, get out there. There's no better way to find out what you need to learn to be a pro. Also, you can't both do this and insulate yourself against failure. Failure is the most important teacher actually.
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12-14-2024 03:02 PM
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I am 45. I started late. I got private Jazz guitar lessons for 2 years in the UK when I was about 23 id been playing solo country blues guitar before then. I practised a couple of hours a day. I then got in to Uni in Australia two years later and the gravity of what it takes to become a good consistent Jazz guitarist hit me. I saw other guitarists go from just knowing a couple of scales and chords to really good in three years. I mean the tunes list was things like watermelon man, blue Bossa, sonnymoon for two in year 1, to stablemates, lush life, 7 steps to heaven in year three. Donna lee and giant steps were year two.
we all practiced hard. I was practicing five hours a day during term time, 6-7 hours in the holidays plus working a job. I found it very hard but some of the younger students around 18 seemed to find it easier BUT and this is a big BUT.
I wanted to learn and internalise everything. All the rhythms, all the feels, all the tempos, all the voicings, all the keys all the tunes and as many concepts as I could. I never had access to all that knowledge before and I wanted to learn it all. We only saw other guitarists play when there ensemble was up to perform once a month. for this they prepared two tunes and played them in front of all us students.
Now if you have had a month to prepare two tunes and you decide on the key and stick to the same tempo you can pull off a very convincing solo using transcribed licks, some rhythms and phrases that you know will work.
Its getting to the stage where you are comfortable at all tempos, all keys, all chord progressions, knowing lots of voicings and voice leading techniques, knowing tons of heads, having enough material to keep your solos interesting for a few choruses, doing it all in public regularly so that setting up your gear and sound becomes very easy. Playing in duo, trio or quartet, knowing Latin, 3/4, swing at all tempos plus odd metres and odd note groupings
To do that its taken me 4 years of Uni and 15 years practicing, but thats me. Its always taken me longer to do stuff and it amazes me the standard of American guitarists who seem to have all this down at 26, but there it is. Im glad I finally feel happy with my playing and sound and I need to work on fast tempos and tunes with non functional harmony but when im gigging, im thinking of space and im improvising. I never know what's going to come next apart from the melody. If I hear the bass player go to the bridge early, I can go with him, im happy with any of my tunes list being played at any tempo or feel and thats made me more confident and makes everything much more enjoyable and unpredictable.
I think its natural to try and find shortcuts and ways to achieve the goals sooner. Ive seen other Jazz musicians in my area be more successful but it doesn't last unless they know at least 80 tunes, that can keep them going for a couple of years if they make sure to add to that list.. Otherwise people get bored very quickly of hearing the same 15 or 20 standards. As for money, in my experience forget it
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Oh something else - ABLM
Always be learning music
It's not a very good acronym, but I think it can be very easy to spend one's time on exercises.
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You should have done all that work while you were gigging. You don’t need to be proficient in everything to start, just be kind, humble and willing to improve.Its getting to the stage where you are comfortable at all tempos, all keys, all chord progressions, knowing lots of voicings and voice leading techniques, knowing tons of heads, having enough material to keep your solos interesting for a few choruses, doing it all in public regularly so that setting up your gear and sound becomes very easy. Playing in duo, trio or quartet, knowing Latin, 3/4, swing at all tempos plus odd metres and odd note groupings
To do that its taken me 4 years of Uni and 15 years practicing, but thats me.
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You no want Open Studio.
Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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This. Originally Posted by John A.
As a former actor, I (along with my fellow professionals) always described a professional actor as someone who earned a living primarily as an actor. Someone who primarily earns a living teaching acting is a professional teacher. But a musician doesn't have to actively play music to be a musician – a professional musician is someone for whom music is a livelihood.
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There's an anti-anxiety medication named Propranolol that many have found helpful for overcoming stage fright. Users have said they only had to use it a few times to retrain their habitual physical response to stressful situations. When one no longer feels overly anxious in such situations, the fear of them tends to subside. A little stage fright is normal, a lot is not. Originally Posted by Ukena
There's a chapter on it in Smart Drugs & Nutrients by Ward Dean, M.D., which you can read here, starting on page 135:
Smart Drugs & Nutrients PDF - Dean, Ward & Morgenthaler, John | PDF
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Again, I’ll go back to Wes Montgomery and Tal Farlow. Welder and sign painter, semi-pro hobbyists by your definition. Originally Posted by Ukena
This discussion and moving goalpost gatekeeping is silly.
The people worrying about what makes you a professional are missing the point. There is no gateway, no finish line, no membership card.
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Imo, the main definition of pro is it's the person's profession. As that is the definition in the dictionary. Although realistically, it can also be defined as a level of play.
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Quite a lot of the classical music world is on the beta blockers Originally Posted by Mick-7
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What’s that? Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
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Maybe it’s like an open house, but just one room. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Not to be too pedantic but Tal retired at 27 to become a sign painter and I believe Wes stopped working his factory job once music sustained him and his family. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
I think we all know the difference btw semi pro and wes/tal. I think the discourse may be bc the limitations of communication on the fourm. I'm usually pretty lazy myself with my writing.
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Ahh got it. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
well I don’t know much about real estate.
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You guys both ain't want Open Studio.
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Years from now, when have the next Wes Montgomery they'll ask him in an interview how he got so good at jazz guitar. He'll say "I was struggling for years, but one day I discovered open studio (thanks Bobby) then everything clicked, I became the player I am today.". Not.
Last edited by Tal_175; 12-14-2024 at 11:43 PM.
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Ur mad
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For the record, open studio seems great and those dudes are awesome
I just think it would be more efficient if you put the pricing structure etc in your signature or something
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Aha! Always suspected you
as a time traveling guitarist.
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I use propranonol and find it helps. It just slows the heartbeat but I still get mild anxiety. I dont consider myself a professional just someone who spends a lot of time working at it and trying to get an audience to enjoy it
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I think it’s great that someone is getting a ton of mileage from a jazz teaching platform, but I agree that they can probably afford their own advertising. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
It’s $97 a month, unless you want to pay $600 in advanced for the year. That puts it on the high end of several online teaching portals from TrueFire to Elite Guitarist to Artistworks, but not ridiculous. From my limited exposure, the two main teachers (owners?) are great fun and good educators, but they’re pianists. Although Echols seems to be giving live courses, he is not listed as an instructor. On the other hand Peter Sprague is, but doesn’t seem to ever have live classes. Alas, $97/month for weekly live classes with Peter would be a real bargain.
Echols has developed a system to apply Barry Harris to guitar that is truly unique and useful. However, I find him to be a terrible educator. He knows what he is doing, but struggles to understand that it isn’t self-evident to the students. Lots of, “so I this…, then I… that, and… there. Tada!” YMMV.
Is it worth $100 a month? Sure, for some. I was willing to pay $100 per session with Peter Sprague or Chris Parks. Thomas Echols, no; but because of his skills as a teacher, not because of any lack of skill or knowledge on the guitar.
Hopefully that was helpful and can put an end to the side discussion about OSP. We can get back to what it means to be a pro player in the jazz guitar world.
My own opinion is that we focus too much on the “pro” distinction. I am amazed at young (20 to 30yo) musicians playing at crazy high levels, putting their heart and soul into music, who do it knowing they will never make a living at it. Are they “pro”? To me they are.
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Much appreciated. Originally Posted by rlrhett
Mostly I was just making fun of Bobby because he spams every thread by telling everyone to sign up for Open Studio Pro.
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