The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    John, I gotta check out your second take when I get home as Soundcloud is blocked here...

    Got to listen a bit at lunch today. I'm offering only constructive criticisms today as overall I enjoyed listening to everyone. These are meant to be helpful and in no way at all mean...I just figure we are all here for growth, so why not actually offer something that I think could lead to that. Please note I am not an expert and my opinions are only worth what you paid for them! (zero)

    Peter C... I definitely dug the rockabilly/jump blues thing, great attitude on that. I guess my thing for you would be to make sure you lock those licks in rhythmically, as they're very strong. This is one of those situations of course, where the track isn't really cooperating with you, real musicians would pick up on your ideas...the track just plugs away...

    rp, you went to a chordal thing in the middle that I think should have been the "peak" of your solo. I liked everything you played after it too, but to my ears, it was a big comedown in energy afterwards. But I think I also got the vibe that you were sort of hitting record and seeing what happened, and letting the track play out, so I dig that.

    wzpgsr, not so much a critique as a challenge...I liked your take a lot. I figure one thing you'll be tempted to work on is tempo, which is fine, I get it, the tune does sound good "up" a bit. But you have so many nice lines and your groove is really solid, my challenge to you is to think about the "shape" of your solo as well...and beat up some of those ideas a bit more, develop them over the course of the solo.

    TOMMO loved that you went blues blues, and I guess the only thing I heard in your take was like in some others this week, really locking in to what the (in this case, canned) rhythm section is giving you...and again, probably less of an issue were you playing with actual humans. Tracks are bastards sometimes. They can be hard to hear and lock in with.

    Anyway, hope that's cool with everybody. Just wanted to do a little more than the usual "pats on the back," as I think this is established as a space where we can converse a little deeper on stuff.

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  3. #52

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    I tend not to think of Wes as a fast player -- until I try to play his stuff.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    i tend not to think of wes as a fast player -- until i try to play his stuff.
    truth.

    (That was supposed to be all caps)

    Maybe that's part of Why Wes was so great...never sounded fast for the sake of being fast.

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I tend not to think of Wes as a fast player -- until I try to play his stuff.
    Yup.

    John

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    wzpgsr, not so much a critique as a challenge...I liked your take a lot. I figure one thing you'll be tempted to work on is tempo, which is fine, I get it, the tune does sound good "up" a bit. But you have so many nice lines and your groove is really solid, my challenge to you is to think about the "shape" of your solo as well...and beat up some of those ideas a bit more, develop them over the course of the solo.

    ...

    Anyway, hope that's cool with everybody. Just wanted to do a little more than the usual "pats on the back," as I think this is established as a space where we can converse a little deeper on stuff.
    Thanks, I appreciate the guidance. You've honed in on something I have been thinking a lot about since we've started these online jam sessions: playing with more intentionality, developing small ideas throughout a solo (motivic improv?), "telling a story." A lot of the times, I can hear in my head more than I can actually get out through my fingers, so I end up throwing a lot of, frankly, random melodic stuff at the wall against the rhythms that I am hearing in my head as I play. Would love to be able to do that with a lot more intention behind the actual notes that get played.
    Last edited by wzpgsr; 04-05-2021 at 06:19 PM.

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    rp, you went to a chordal thing in the middle that I think should have been the "peak" of your solo. I liked everything you played after it too, but to my ears, it was a big comedown in energy afterwards. But I think I also got the vibe that you were sort of hitting record and seeing what happened, and letting the track play out, so I dig that.
    .
    Mr. B, I appreciate the feedback.

    I know that Wes never went backwards. Once he started soloing in chords, he never went back to single notes. And, of course, there's nobody who ever did it better, well, IMO.

    With simpler harmony at brisk tempo, I don't have enough vocabulary and I can't translate the fast lines in my head to the guitar without sacrificing the time -- which I did, unfortunately, a couple of times. It's a matter of execution and, as usual, none of the fancy notes you were thinking about will sound good if you don't nail the time.

    So, I get bored with the vocabulary I can play at that speed, and I end up feeling like I need to do something different. I went to chords, in this clip not so much to build energy (although that's the usual function of moving to chords, and I do that too) but, rather, just to change things up. Then, I reach a limit to how high I can build the chord energy and I have to either stop or bring it back down. At 150bpm I have more options than 200bpm, which I think is where I recorded. Listening back, it didn't bother me, although I certainly understand the point.

    The challenge of this tune to me is that Wes set a standard for how hard it should groove, and that standard is high. So you have to find something interesting to play while making every note crackle with energy. And, you have to do it through a bridge that feels like it was grafted from a different tune.

    Well, sorry for the ramble, but I appreciate the discussion and the thread.

  8. #57

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    I agree with your observations regarding my take Jeff, and about the band. I have since fired them.

    Regarding the Cmaj7 back to C7 to thing.....I suppose generally I'm a a fan of non-functional harmony (if that's what it is technically, not that I care) when it's functional harmony in disguise

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    Thanks, I appreciate the guidance. You've honed in on something I have been thinking a lot about since we've started these online jam sessions: playing with more intentionality, developing small ideas throughout a solo (motivic improv?), "telling a story." A lot of the times, I can hear in my head more than I can actually get out through my fingers, so I end up throwing a lot of, frankly, random melodic stuff at the wall against the rhythms that I am hearing in my head as I play. Would love to be able to do that with a lot more intention behind the actual notes that get played.
    I knew that we had more than just a love a literature in common, but it makes sense that us book worms place a premium on story telling.

    Etude writing has really helped me think a little more large scale and thematically. Really stretches the inner ear.

    One think to practice is what my current teacher calls a "minor in the dark."

    A miner's head lamp goes out. He picks up the pick axe in the darkness. Since this is a determined miner, he still wants to get work done. He swings at the cave wall. Puts down the axe. Reaches for a handkerchief to dab off the soot. Now he has to remember, spatially, where he dropped his axe on the floor. He remembers that he placed the axe by his left foot. Success, he was able to locate the axe in the dark.

    My teacher explains this musical metaphor WAY better then I did just there. The idea is you play a note, keep the note in your inner ear while you finish the phrase, and then retrieve that note from your aural memory as you craft your next phrase. You can hold onto the lowest note in a line or the highest note, and come back to it by retaining it in your inner ear.

    Easier to explain in person, but this exercise helped me "zoom" out and play a little more compositionally. Work in progress.

  10. #59

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    Another shot at it. 210bpm


  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    Sounds good, Tommo. I like that tempo, but I think the audio of the backing track sounds weird slowed down (at least it did when I slowed it down in GarageBand).

    John
    Thank you John. I slowed it down in audacity which has a "high quality" slow down function that makes the audio sound less "ragged".


    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    TOMMO loved that you went blues blues, and I guess the only thing I heard in your take was like in some others this week, really locking in to what the (in this case, canned) rhythm section is giving you...and again, probably less of an issue were you playing with actual humans. Tracks are bastards sometimes. They can be hard to hear and lock in with.
    Thanks Jeff. Yes: I'm not exactly comfortable playing at such a high tempo especially when the rhythm section is as frenetic as on this backing track. I'm more comfortable when the bass is supplying a steady pulse.

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Anyway, hope that's cool with everybody. Just wanted to do a little more than the usual "pats on the back," as I think this is established as a space where we can converse a little deeper on stuff.
    Agreed there - I'm not posting to fish for compliments: if you like my contributions then I'm happy to hear but I'd like to hear what's not so good or even sucks as well so I can adress any weakness an work on it.

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    Absolutely agreed - tough to play along with the track when it almost sounds like everybody is taking a solo at the same time.

    I slowed down the Aebersold backing by 20% - still too fast for me but let's see if I can get away with this:






    ETA: I think I haven't mentioned that I enjoyed everybody's contributions very much!

    And: may be heresy but I prefer the versions by Cannonball Adderley as well...
    Bluesy feels sounds great!

  13. #62

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    Sort of post-break latin noodle. It's a great tune for noodling over. I kept wanting to break into Sunshine Superman...



    Has anyone noticed that a lot of backing tracks on You Tube have the AbM7 bar as Ab7/DbM7? Where does that come from?

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Bluesy feels sounds great!
    Thanks rp! Enjoyed your "second shot" - very relaxed playing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1

    Has anyone noticed that a lot of backing tracks on You Tube have the AbM7 bar as Ab7/DbM7? Where does that come from?
    Are you talking about Unit 7 backing tracks? I have only found one or two so far...

    After hours bossa there - nice!

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    Are you talking about Unit 7 backing tracks? I have only found one or two so far...
    Yes, Unit 7, but I'm exaggerating the number, I thought there were more. Look at bar 9 here. The other two repetitions just have AbM7.

    But it doesn't matter, I'm probably making too much of it.


  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Yes, Unit 7, but I'm exaggerating the number, I thought there were more. Look at bar 9 here. The other two repetitions just have AbM7.

    But it doesn't matter, I'm probably making too much of it.

    Real Book changes and we all know that they aren't overly correct at times. Plus: may have been transcribed from a certain recording that uses these changes.
    There's a blog entry here by Dirk where the changes are slightly different, too - especially for the solo sections:

    Unit 7 (Wes Montgomery) - Melody, Chords & Improvisation

  17. #66

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    Those are the ones I was using because I couldn't find a RB version. But the point about the backing track was that it was only the first section that was Ab7/DM7. It doesn't even work that well with the melody - at least the melody on Dirk's page.

    Anyway, I know I've brought it up but I'm really not going to lose sleep over it. I'd never use that awful track anyway! AbM7 will be fine :-)

    (edit)

    Just listened to the Wes/Kelly version and I think they do hit a DbM7... okay!
    Last edited by ragman1; 04-06-2021 at 09:44 AM.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Sort of post-break latin noodle. It's a great tune for noodling over. I kept wanting to break into Sunshine Superman...



    Has anyone noticed that a lot of backing tracks on You Tube have the AbM7 bar as Ab7/DbM7? Where does that come from?
    A little known fact about this tune: the solo changes are not the same as the head changes. The "New Real Book" has a second page for the solo changes.

    There's actually a nice tutorial on this tune on this site.

    EDIT: OOPS I see someone else beat me to the draw!

  19. #68

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    Ah, okay... but how complicated.

  20. #69

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    It's not that different really...

    The keys are Abmaj7 sound in bar 9 and a dominant sound in bar 10 that pulls you back to C.

    Can be a G7#5, but the tritone sub of a Db chord in there is great...extra hip to make it a maj7...

  21. #70

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    Here’s my submission. I’m running behind from the holiday. This was one I never played on guitar before, I played it on double bass with a jazz trio about eight years ago so I knew the form. It’s a tough one to stay up tempo in the pocket and create meaningful lines. I think wzpgsr said it best, “throwing a lot of random melodic stuff at the wall”.

    BTW
    Great submissions and conversation so far on this thread!


  22. #71

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    I found that playing the C against Dbmaj7 didn't sound good to me.

    Maybe because the ear wants to hear a G dominant sound?

    Maybe it's a situation where the soloist can sound good playing as if the chord is G7b13 while the comping instruments create bitonality by playing Dbmaj7.

  23. #72

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    Playing G7 or variant works fine over the AbM7 (strangely).

  24. #73

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    Here's mine. I got fed up trying to play with that Aebersold track (as others have said, it's too noisy and gets too fast). So I did something with BIAB instead (tempo = 210).


  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Playing G7 or variant works fine over the AbM7 (strangely).
    I don't know how valuable these post hoc explanations are. Nonetheless:

    This is a turnaround. If you're thinking G7b13 (or, better yet, G7b9b13), then the subdominant leading to it might be Dm7b5. D F Ab C.

    That's that three notes associated with G7b9b13. And, it has a C, which is the note I didn't think works.

    If you just think about Abmaj7, Ab C Eb G. Same thing, three notes from G7b9b13 and that C again.

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop;[URL="tel:1112266"
    1112266[/URL]]Here's mine. I got fed up trying to play with that Aebersold track (as others have said, it's too noisy and gets too fast). So I did something with BIAB instead (tempo = 210).

    Absolutely wonderful! Fantastic touch and feel. How much of your ideas come from transcribed language as opposed to derived language? Meaning, to get to this stage of jazz vocabulary was it necessary to transcribe solo after solo and make your own phrases from those ideas or did you derive your lines from what you hear in your head?