The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Posts 1 to 25 of 57
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    Recently, I've been listening to as many young players as possible. Of course, not in the clubs, but on YouTube. And, my impression is that there are hordes of young players who play at a very high level that took 20 plus years for musicians to achieve in my generation(exceptions being savants-Chet, Miles, Corea, etc.). Their technical abilities/skills are phenomenal. However, I rarely hear them playing ballads-- only fast tempo pieces. The litmus test, for me, for a musician is how he/she interprets the music not how fast they can play since we are not music machines, but rather, sensoriums of the human condition as interpreted through our music. And, there is no better test of musicianship than a personal interpretation of a beautiful ballad because you cannot hide behind flurries of notes, mathematical formulations for improvisation, or stolen solos from the "greats." The reason, I believe, is that they are being churned out by Jazz Music programs around the country who approach Music as a Science rather than an Art. And, they are producing phenomenal technicians but are they really generating creative musicians? And, sadly, the old path of earning your chops in the clubs over many years of performing has morphed into intensive training at a university and YT video career. The clubs are disappearing and creative music, as we know it, will be changed forever. So, here's Chad Lefkowitz-Brown playing "Giant Steps" followed by "My One and Only Love." Then, followed by Coltrane with Johnny Hartman. Chad is an outstanding musician, perhaps a savant, but in my opinion, his ballad style has a thin sound and lacks warmth and conviction and quickly after the initial statement, he returns to his comfort zone of sheets of sounds as we hear in his "Giant Steps" which, however, is very impressive. What do you think?
    Play live . . . Marinero






  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    There’s a red bird in the corner and a blackbird at my door
    Last edited by BFrench; 03-22-2021 at 08:22 AM. Reason: zebron

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    yea never heard that before, LOL.

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    Eye of the beholder maybe ?
    ! Warning: sacralidge ahead !
    There are some of the jazz greats that I don't really appreciate, much. That's my taste, not theirs, right ?

    It could be that there's a lot more musicians that come, right to your desktop these days. I just found out that there actually is a School of Rock...I thought that was a movie,...how long has that been around ?
    It reminds me of the Van Halen phenomena. I was never a big fan, but he inspired a bunch of kids to pick up the guitar. Many of them seemed to have missed the boat, to my ears anyway. Eddie was actually playing songs, a lot of these kids just wanted to wail away on a scale ... some of them made it big, people liked that.

    I can't be too critical. "Overly technical", or rather "flail than feel", that's just me rationalizing my taste. For all I know, someone has heard me and thought, "what a putz" -lol

    This stuff can be interesting to talk about though,... especially since we have all this extra time on our hands

    Cheers,
    Mike

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    I agree with your premise and find that I'm way too often guilty of trying to "fill in the holes" with notes. I struggle at times to fit my playing to the emotion I'm trying to convey.

    One of my guitar "heroes" is Robin Trower. No, he's not a jazz guitarist, he's an electric blues guitarist. But I have heard Trower put more emotion into a single, sustained note, than many highly proficient, technical speedsters.

    The word that always baffles and amazes me is, "phrasing." The concept eludes me frequently, but when I'm in the groove, I find the emotive quality of my playing increases exponentially.

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    I found CLB's version of My One and Only Love quite beautiful. I think the way he came in on his solo playing fast/double-time worked really well as a contrast to the bass solo coming right after the head. I like the way he built to a peak and then worked his way down, especially the way he came back to the head in straight time while the band stayed in double time, which gave him another place to go with the coda. Also, check out the interaction with the piano. Very responsive to each other, and I like the way CLB keeps his intensity somewhat low on the head, while the pianist does most of the ornaments and fills. All in all, I think it's a sensitively crafted and interesting performance. In terms of tone and aesthetic, what you call "thin" just strikes me as reference to Micheal Brecker, not as a failure to be Trane. Beyond that, consider that Trane was making a record with a singer and playing something that fit with that. CLB's concept is different on this performance for valid reasons. Evidence that he's a thoughtful and mature musician, not a savant at all.

    John

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    " In terms of tone and aesthetic, what you call "thin" just strikes me as reference to Micheal Brecker, not as a failure to be Trane."
    John A


    Hi, J,
    As a former saxer, "cooking" (playing up-tempo) cannot reveal a musicians complete sound so it's very difficult to judge a player unless you hear the total package--ballads. Coltrane, IMO, would not be an example of a player with a big lush sound a la Gene Ammons, Dexter, Coleman Hawkins, Ben Webster, Illinois Jacquet, Zoot Sims, etc but he didn't have a "thin" sound nor did Michael Brecker. I agree with much of what you've described about Chad's playing but a musician should be a total package--sound and technique. Ever since Coltrane twisted the musical heads of generations of saxers with his sheets of sound the concept of playing, for most, has changed. But, we cannot ignore the total package. A car needs a good engine, transmission, etc., but it also needs tires. And, this is my point. Chad is a great young player but he doesn't, yet, have the complete package and, there's no guarantee that he'll ever get it. It's something you must develop. This is why I have never been a big fan of Joe Pass or Pat Martino. They're real burners/outstanding players but lack, for me, a complete musical package. And, even in their ballads, as a generalization, they invariably feel the need to show their incredible technique. Sometimes simplicity is the most musical rendition of a tune. Here's Kenny Burrell with a fat, lush sound in "My One and Only Love" who has ,with a few exceptions, a minimalist interpretation of this classic. What do you think? Thanks for your honest reply, J.
    Play live . . . Marinero

    https://youtu.be/Uonk83xh47E


  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    " In terms of tone and aesthetic, what you call "thin" just strikes me as reference to Micheal Brecker, not as a failure to be Trane."
    John A


    Hi, J,
    As a former saxer, "cooking" (playing up-tempo) cannot reveal a musicians complete sound so it's very difficult to judge a player unless you hear the total package--ballads. Coltrane, IMO, would not be an example of a player with a big lush sound a la Gene Ammons, Dexter, Coleman Hawkins, Ben Webster, Illinois Jacquet, Zoot Sims, etc but he didn't have a "thin" sound nor did Michael Brecker. I agree with much of what you've described about Chad's playing but a musician should be a total package--sound and technique. Ever since Coltrane twisted the musical heads of generations of saxers with his sheets of sound the concept of playing, for most, has changed. But, we cannot ignore the total package. A car needs a good engine, transmission, etc., but it also needs tires. And, this is my point. Chad is a great young player but he doesn't, yet, have the complete package and, there's no guarantee that he'll ever get it. It's something you must develop. This is why I have never been a big fan of Joe Pass or Pat Martino. They're real burners/outstanding players but lack, for me, a complete musical package. And, even in their ballads, as a generalization, they invariably feel the need to show their incredible technique. Sometimes simplicity is the most musical rendition of a tune. Here's Kenny Burrell with a fat, lush sound in "My One and Only Love" who has ,with a few exceptions, a minimalist interpretation of this classic. What do you think? Thanks for your honest reply, J.
    Play live . . . Marinero

    https://youtu.be/Uonk83xh47E

    I could not disagree more regarding both Joe Pass and Pat Martino and cannot conceive of how one could listen to either of them and conclude that they "lack a complete musical package". I get the same thing out of both of them that I get out of Kenny Burrell -- all are unique musical styles and personality who deliver interpretations that speak to their individual understandings about and feelings of the music they're playing. In terms of tone, both have had issues with being very poorly recorded. Pass also used that weird sounding Ibanez signature model while they were paying him to. Martino's idea of tone has gotten kind of eccentric since his brain injury. But at their best, both made recordings that are benchmarks for beautiful guitar sound. Anytime I find myself judging a musician whose abilities greatly exceed my own harshly, I look inwards.

    John

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    I greatly enjoyed Chad’s rendition of the ballad. So sue me.

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    Thanks, John and Graham for your honest feedback. Do you mean we ALL don't like Beluga caviar on garlic toast with ample doses of Beluga Gold vodka? What's the world coming to?????
    Play live . . . Marinero

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    I think Marinero's OP made some good points and things that I have thought about for a good while. I listen mostly to instrumental jazz with sax as the lead. As a sax guy, I agree with the OP that there seems to have been for quite a while a tendency for uni-educated players to want to show their chops and that means by playing fast. A lot of that pales in very short order for me. Playing vertically rather than linearly, ie lyrically, seems to be the thing to do and I get really bored with that.

    There is no doubt that they are excellent technically but I agree with Marinero that the playing lack interest, soul. I don't want to stop progress but if this is what I have to put up with I'll be very selective about who I listen to and probably remain 'stuck' with some of the old guys. Lyrical players like Gerry Mulligan and Stan Getz will always be enjoyable. Yes they could burn when the tune called for it but it was the style of Bird that turned me off what he was doing back in the day.

    I wonder sometimes if today's audiences really understand what contemporary players are doing when they rip of super fast arpeggios over the changes or if they just like the 'wall of sound'. I guess my age is showing.

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Thanks, John and Graham for your honest feedback. Do you mean we ALL don't like Beluga caviar on garlic toast with ample doses of Beluga Gold vodka? What's the world coming to?????
    Play live . . . Marinero
    Taste is taste, and there's no arguing about it. But when you express your taste in words of objective description rather than subjective perception, then you get pushback. You're perfectly entitled to prefer someone else to CLB, or Joe Pass, or Pat Martino, or whomever. You're perfectly entitled to say "Pass's ballad playing doesn't move me the way Burrell's does." That's fine. There are people I don't much enjoy, too. But when you say "Pass/CLB/Baker can't really play ballads", that's another story. Saying it that way reflects, if not a defect in your hearing and understanding, at least a defect in the way you express an opinion, not their defects as players.

    Comrades, come the revolution we shall all eat strawberries and cream
    But comrade, I don't like strawberries and cream
    Come the revolution, we shall all eat strawberries and cream, and like them.

    John

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    " But when you express your taste in words of objective description rather than subjective perception, then you get pushback. "
    John A


    Hi, J,
    That's your subjective opinion as were my original remarks. I thought that was clear since I signed my name to the post.
    Play live . . . Marinero

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    Chad Lefkowitz-Brown is a brilliant musician.
    He's also a great educator, he just plays beautifully.
    Why confront him with the Coltrane genius?
    Best
    Kris

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    Yay ... Marinero shits on young people for being technical, but unmusical .. Haven't we been here before?

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    " But when you express your taste in words of objective description rather than subjective perception, then you get pushback. "
    John A


    Hi, J,
    That's your subjective opinion as were my original remarks. I thought that was clear since I signed my name to the post.
    Play live . . . Marinero
    No, it isn't my subjective opinion. It's the direct meaning of the words you used. Read your words again. No point in going tit for tat over this. If in your own mind you think you're expressing a matter of taste clearly with no intent to demean the object of the remark, take it from a careful reader who rarely chimes in on stuff like this (or not, your call): You're not.

    John

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    No, it isn't my subjective opinion. It's the direct meaning of the words you used. Read your words again. No point in going tit for tat over this. If in your own mind you think you're expressing a matter of taste clearly with no intent to demean the object of the remark, take it from a careful reader who rarely chimes in on stuff like this (or not, your call): You're not.

    John
    Hi, J,
    How could I demean Chad when I said " Chad is an outstanding musician, perhaps a savant,"--post #1. Did you fail to read or forget what I clearly said? I wish these discussions didn't have to descend to personal attacks devoid of logic, reason, and imbued with personal animus. Not everyone thinks the same. This is why these Forums can be a learning tool. . . to listen to people who have differing concepts of music than yours. A great musician is not one-sided. He should be multi-faceted for greatness. All the greats have it: Miles, Coltrane, Chet, Wes, Dexter, Kenny Baron, Mingus, Tyner, Billie Holiday, Sarah Vaughan, Johnny Hartmann, Art Blake, Zoot. If you think this is not true . . . then it's your opinion which may or may not have a foothold in reality.
    Play live . . . Marinero

    "COUNTABLE NOUNA savant is a person of great learning or natural ability. Collins dictionary

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Yay ... Marinero shits on young people for being technical, but unmusical .. Haven't we been here before?
    It is an ancient Marinero,
    And he stoppeth one of three.
    ”Know’st not thou that Everything
    Is Worse than it used to Be?”


    (from ‘The Rime of the Ancient Marinero’.)

  20. #19

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    It is an ancient Marinero,
    And he stoppeth one of three.
    ”Know’st not thou that Everything
    Is Worse than it used to Be?”


    (from ‘The Rime of the Ancient Marinero’.)
    Hi, G,
    What a pleasure to find a literate man! And, I can tell you . . . sometimes I feel like the Old Mariner(STC?). Very clever, G. I can always count on you for some quality humor . . . however, I confess to the crime. The albatross is dead.
    Play live . . . . The Ancient Marinero

  21. #20

    User Info Menu

    I always knew my A-level in English Literature would come in handy one day.

  22. #21

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I always knew my A-level in English Literature would come in handy one day.

    We must protect the albatross, G or we'll descend into the bowels of the irretractable, workingman's Jonathon Livingston Seagull.
    El Antiguo Marinero

  23. #22

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, J,
    How could I demean Chad when I said " Chad is an outstanding musician, perhaps a savant,"--post #1. Did you fail to read or forget what I clearly said? I wish these discussions didn't have to descend to personal attacks devoid of logic, reason, and imbued with personal animus. Not everyone thinks the same. This is why these Forums can be a learning tool. . . to listen to people who have differing concepts of music than yours. A great musician is not one-sided. He should be multi-faceted for greatness. All the greats have it: Miles, Coltrane, Chet, Wes, Dexter, Kenny Baron, Mingus, Tyner, Billie Holiday, Sarah Vaughan, Johnny Hartmann, Art Blake, Zoot. If you think this is not true . . . then it's your opinion which may or may not have a foothold in reality.
    Play live . . . Marinero

    "COUNTABLE NOUNA savant is a person of great learning or natural ability. Collins dictionary
    I read what you wrote quite carefully and it came off as damning Lefkowitz with faint praise (impressive on Giant Steps but can't play ballads). "Savant" in common contemporary usage most often means a person with significant mental or developmental impairments with above average skills in a highly specialized activity (such as an autistic or idiot savant). You also said Martino and Pass are all flash and no substance, That may not have been your intent, but it's what your words actually mean. That is is not an attack devoid of logic and reason. It's a factual observation (i.e., your words have perjorative meanings in common English usage), and a logical conclusion (you mean what you write). If you did not intend any of those meanings, I simultaneously apologize and suggest that you consider the possibility of your words having unintended connotations.

    I have no quarrel with the idea that "greatness" in a musician entails multi-facetedness. I do have a quarrel with your imputation that Lefkowitz-Brown, Pass and Martino lack that multi-facetedness, which I supported with examples and explanation of how I observe that multi-facetedness. I am not suggesting that you should share my tastes, only that i find your explanation of your tastes inconsistent with what strikes me as objective reality (that these three players have great command of ballad-playing, even if some people don't like how they play ballads). I bear no animus. If I did, I wouldn't be having the conversation in the first place. But this is all pointless and I feel silly for bothering.

    John
    Last edited by John A.; 03-23-2021 at 11:53 PM.

  24. #23

    User Info Menu

    For Martino and ballads, check out We’ll Be Together Again. A duet album with a pianist.

    Sublime ballad playing.

  25. #24

    User Info Menu

    One thing I like about Chad LB is how much old school influence there is in his playing. It’s not just the usual Tranebop thing

  26. #25

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    We must protect the albatross, G or we'll descend into the bowels of the irretractable, workingman's Jonathon Livingston Seagull.
    El Antiguo Marinero
    Well I would personally feel happy conversing in Chaucerian English, but you have to make yourself understood by the plebs don’t you?