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I think another issue with a track like this is whether the player can phrase with the implied clave. If you try to play swing style over it, you may conflict with the clave and add to the confusion.
Originally Posted by Alter
All Latin backing tracks tend to get tricky if one can't hear the bass clearly, cause, despite the claves, many times the bass is what's holding the groove together. And bass is often mixed way too low.
And then people will be listening on phones and laptops where it might not even be audible at all..
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03-02-2021 02:26 AM
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Gibson L5 is great instrument.I had the opportunity to play the L5 in a store in New York in the early 90's, I played the old L5 for 30 minutes and I had the feeling that the guitar itself was playing. The seller told me this guitar is for you. He gave the price and I almost didn't I fainted, I don't remember what year this guitar was from - I think the 1960s.
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Try singing a clave while you solo.
should keep you busy for a few months.
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For me, it's much easier to play latin style than swinging style, although I like to play both genres. Originally Posted by christianm77
Perhaps this is because Latin has an even groove. Even eighth notes are very easy to feel and you don't need to practice with the 2 4 metronome.
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Most people have a fairly sketchy idea of how to develop a swing feel. Also swing feels are less familiar from popular culture. Originally Posted by kris
'Grid time' - quantised 16ths is easier to practice. Most practice exercises focus on the development of this, and with good reason; it's the baseline for professional music these days. And you know when its wrong and when it's right - you can see it on a DAW timeline. But rhythm isn't just grid time; and that's just as true for 'Latin' or funk as it is for jazz swing.
But actually the usual problem with those not comfortable with swing is that actually that they try to swing too much. They overdot. If you have this problem, you may be better off playing swing feels as if they were straight 8ths, straighten out and relax.... Swing comes through naturally, you can't force it. It's intuitive.
The placement of upbeats and accents is important in swing, not the ratio of downbeat to upbeat length.
And swing phrases have a clave! Parker does 100%. But then that need not surprise us because jazz came from New Orleans originally, and their music has a clave (just over the sea from Cuba)
So - in a sense, Jazz IS 'latin' (well, afro-carribean) music.
Anyway I have the opposite problem lol. I tend to swing my upbeats habitually, which sounds awful when I do the same in funk or cuban rhumba or something. Just spent a lot of time playing that old-time swing music.
And when it comes to 'Latin' music - well the use of the term 'Latin Jazz' is one excellent way to wind up all the Brazilian musicians I've ever met haha. Brazilian samba for example has its own swing. (Drum genius is great for a dive into 'latin' feels, but there are too many jazz drummers on there playing samba lol.)
If in doubt talk to a good drummer. I could write much more on this; music edu neglects the humanity, physicality and - yes - the politics of rhythm too often.Last edited by christianm77; 03-02-2021 at 07:00 AM.
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I/ve been in Brasil long time ago.I know few musicians from Brasil.They exactly know what is going on.They have rhythm in their blood, but I think that swing / swing jazz / and latin are like different worlds.
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simple...you can play fantastic latin stuff but you can have problems with good swinging jazz stuff.
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and yet you can swing without ever playing any 8ths at all. swing is not an 8th note technicality. it's a "yeah, motherfucker!" atttitude. Originally Posted by christianm77
dig sam jones, dig al harewood's cymbal. quarternotes. "yeah, motherfuckers!!"
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Yeah. Sam Jones doesn't need to go 'bucket of dung' Originally Posted by djg
Not that there's anything wrong with 'bucket of dung' per se; but rather like compulsively playing triplets in one's solo it's a sign of lack of confidence in that basic thing is strong enough.
I didn't actually mention 8th notes directly, but obviously if you play lots of 8th notes instead of trying to play rhythms, this problem is exacerbated. Parker might look like 8th notes written down sometimes, but that's not how he sounds, the accents are important. (Again, repeating phrases vocally and then on your instrument will teach you this...)
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Or vice versa Originally Posted by kris
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Read this during a work break. Just wanted to to say thanks for making me laugh Originally Posted by djg
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Yes...I know jazz musicians that do not like bossa at all. Originally Posted by christianm77
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The L5ces does live up to the hype. I stumbled onto mine here on the forum and jumped at it because of the price. It always inspires me to invest more in my playing. It rewards any effort I put into it with a beautiful tone. In some ways, I don't feel I "deserve" this instrument, but then a master musician can make any instrument sound amazing. We mortals need all the help we can get, and a fine instrument that is easy to play and rewards good technique with great sound is a delight. Originally Posted by kris
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The Gibson L5 has something secret about it. I remember when I played it in a store in New York, I couldn't tear myself away from it. With time I got sick on the L5 but the taste of something noble remained. Congratulations on having such a wonderful instrument. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
Best
kris
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Learning swing is as easy as
1:
2:
3:
Maybe not THAT easy...
Even if we play in groups without a drummer, jazz is drum music. Listen to the trap and that's that. Internalize the clock, but don't speak in tick tock, a simple triplet it's not, sometimes you gotta... drop it like it's hot. Hotter than that?
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attempt at pithy advice time: FIND THE CLAVE IN EVERYTHING.
It;s the absolute key in being able to feel a rhythm.
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This Nica’s Dream piece
There’s a quite a lot to it isn’t there? I mean to actually play it right?
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I think so. Originally Posted by christianm77
I found it waaaaaaay more difficult than Night Dreamer
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There's a lot to be learned in learning this tune. Originally Posted by christianm77
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Nice laid back take. You can see there's parts where you were comfortable, and parts where you were hesitant...the comfortable parts sound great, so really all you need is time with the tune! Originally Posted by TOMMO
Where's pierrerichard when you need him?
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You can really hear how much more comfortable you are with a swing-- Originally Posted by lawson-stone
But actually, by that last A, you're going for it on that part too...that line that doesn't quite connect...glad you left that in, because that happens to everybody, and that kind of screw up only happens if you're GOING FOR IT....so thats the good kind of slip.
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I thought I'd just report that on this thread, with 3 or so days left on this tune, we have had 13 players posts clips of the tune. Some have posted more than one, but I think 13 people taking the time to bone up on the tune and post a clip is worth celebrating. We've also had a lot of talk about theory and aspects of this tune, but the playing is always, for me, the thing that counts.
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Time feel is something which resists mathematical analysis and verbal instruction.
For those interested in working on it, I'd strongly suggest watching some of Reg's youtube videos. (search for reg523)
His time feel is terrific on every note/chord he plays.
Worth trying to imitate -- and the way he records, you can see and hear exactly what he's doing.
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I don't think you can imitate good timing if you ain't got it! You might start okay but it'll soon disintegrate. And regrettably I don't know the answer to it either.
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Thanks Jeff. You got me hooked on that tune and it is now on my list of tunes that I frequently practice and work on. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Totally agree. I hope we can all keep up the energy with this weeks tune, Seraphic Light by John Coltrane!!! Originally Posted by lawson-stone
(just kidding)
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Do I have to do a gypsy jazz version of it?
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I get the impression that, for some guys, it's their natural state, like a default option. If they play, the time is going to be great from the first note to the last. Originally Posted by ragman1
For others, it's more of a struggle and it's quite possible (likely, even) that you can lose focus and not be fully aware that your time feel just suffered.
Some people talk about the "natural musician".
I can verify that's it's quite possible to love playing music even if you're not a natural in that sense.
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I’m really enjoying this, guys. I’m hoping to join in soon.
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Initially could not find backing track for Seraphic Light.
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So I wanted to try again... I think I have the time feel a little better on the head, and I feel a lot more comfortable with the melody. I've upped the tempo a bit. Tried a few different ideas in the solo.... several times.. never quite got them right but wanted to try.
Observations and advice are always helpful.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
No, you have to stop p***ing about and play something!Do I have to do a gypsy jazz version of it?
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I wish I understood your allusions, professor, for I fear I do not Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
That Seraphic Light from His Holiness St John definitely did my brain in
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Oh, just make a demented racket for a few minutes, that'll do Originally Posted by Peter C
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Good job! Originally Posted by lawson-stone
Since you requested feedback, I'd cautiously (because I'm never that sure of myself in these things) offer the following.
The time on the backing track feels forward-leaning to me, if that makes any sense. They're on the front of the beat. There are other ways to play, but that's the way I hear this backing track.
Your style seems a little bit more of a behind the beat style. Nothing inherently wrong with that either (Paul Desmond often sounds laconic to me and he's my ATF).
But, a laid back style against a forward leaning backing may end up sounding like the improvisation is a little behind.
My recipe for working on this is the kind of advice that nobody actually follows, as follows.
Put a backing track into a DAW. I believe you can go from IRealPro ($10) to a MIDI file which Reaper (free to evaluate and $100 or so for the audio interface) can read. I think you can get separate tracks.
Now, you set the Reaper tempo (before you input the tracks) to the tempo of the IrealPro track. Then, you can add in the metronome click and it will be perfect. Try a chorus with just bass and click by muting piano and percussion.
Now, if your notes are in time, you'll see it in the wave form. Sure, you have to get to the point where it's all ear, but visualizing it with wave forms can help along the way. If you're consistently behind, you can slide the waveform to the left and hear what it would sound like if you were on time. Or you can move individual notes and hear what they sound like ahead, on, and behind the click.
You can add the percussion back in and compare your time to that.
You can put the click on eighth notes to see if that helps. I like quarters and I like them loud.
At some point, you begin to better feel the gap between the click and the note. I say "feel" because you can feel time issues before you can clearly hear them.
The underlying principle here is that the simplest thing can sound good if the time is good. Nothing sounds good without good time. Its never a good idea to make an idea more important than executing all your ideas with good time.
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Yeah man. I spent a couple days getting the head down and a couple more practice sessions trying to feel my way around playing out of time. Put on an Aebersold backing track last night to give it a go at tempo and had my ass handed back to me before bar 6. Originally Posted by christianm77
I plan to stick with this tune for a while and may eventually record something. Or, may record something sooner at a much slower tempo.
Its a challenge to connect the “parallel” Mm7 chords in a melodic way. Sometimes close voice leading sounds cool, other times not so cool. I have very little experience with this chord, let alone a vamp featuring Mm7 in two keys. The extensions can sound more consonant to my ear than the chord tones. One thing I discovered today is that the notes of a pentatonic scale made from a Bbm6 arpeggio with an added 4th belong to both Bb and Ab melodic minor scales. So something else to get lost in, I suppose.
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Lol, yeah "Light" would not be a jam session tune. But I do think I'll listen to that record tonight. Rasheid Ali is fucking killing it. What a great drummer. Originally Posted by ragman1
I wish I understood your allusions, professor, for I fear I do not
That Seraphic Light from His Holiness St John definitely did my brain in
PierreRichard was a long time member whose signature on every post he made was "time on the instrument." Great advice. Maybe "the" great advice.
Oh, and I have picked out this weeks tune, it's a nice easy one, and nobody has ANY reason not to participate.
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Sephardic Light, Mr, B?
I SHOULD be able to play that tune easy...
My mom is Sephardic... from Morocco than Haifa when she was only a few years old. Did a thread on Moroccan drumming--sounded very similar to Art Blakey's approach.
Wish I could play Sephardic Light... love Coltrane. Coltrane. Coltrane. COLTRANE!!!
Cue up to 2:20 on this tune, my favorite moment in jazz history:
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Thank you Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Ha, you wait and see :-)Oh, and I have picked out this weeks tune, it's a nice easy one, and nobody has ANY reason not to participate.
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Is it "on the trail"?
Love that tune:
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Another strategy post.
Bbminmaj7 is associated with Bbmelmin scale. A Bb C Db Eb F G.
Abminmaj7 is associated with Abmelmin scale. Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G.
Note that 6 notes are shared by the two scales. Bb C Db Eb F G.
And, there are two changes. A-->Ab, and C-->Cb.
(I'm confident that someone can contribute alternate ways of finding relationships -- please post them).
Now, the bassist is going to make sure you hear the Ab in bar 3. You could say that the change is heard as Bb-->Ab rather than A -->Ab.
So, to my ear, the key shift is C-->Cb. When I comp, I'm thinking xx7669 to xx6887; you'll need to hear the bass notes for that to sound right.
So, any little melody you can play with the notes of Bbmelmin, you can repeat, except, if you played an A or C, flatten them by a half step.
Then there's a ii V in Db. Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C. You flatten the G to Gb.
When it lands on Gbmaj7, you could stay on the notes of Dbmajor, which is the same as Gblydian.
Then, it's a ii V to Bbminmaj7. I'll leave that one as an exercise for the reader, because it's a little harder.
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From where I sit much more solid. I thought you had some great lines in there with some nice chordal bits thrown in. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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I
If it helps, those two min(maj7) chords can be connected by any passing chord you want - Eb7, A7, Am(maj7), a II V, whatever, in the final bar of the Bbm(maj7.) Just articulate it in your line and connect to the next chord. Originally Posted by wzpgsr
Don’t sleep on the melody as a guide to how to solo on the tune.
This tune is not unlike Chelsea Bridge BTW
Anyway there’s a lot going on with the head arrangement which is intricate and subtle...Last edited by christianm77; 03-03-2021 at 06:49 AM.
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I’d rather post when I have something I feel is an advance on my last version tbh. Originally Posted by ragman1
I’ve done enough jamming with backing tracks to last several lifetimes over the past year lol. So I want to do something that teaches me something. Either learn a new tune or get deeper into one I know.
Not much point otherwise...
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christianm 77 +1
There is no point in recording another version just to appear in the game.
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Here's mine. (Backing track is Aebersold.)
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Well done, Mr. G, tricky little thing, isn't it? Nice lines in there
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Everything is clear - a great sounding guitar and a nice balanced backing. It is a real pleasure for the listener and shows a real sensitivity and attention to detail of the performer. Originally Posted by grahambop
Bravo grahambop!
Great playing!
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Couldn't agree more. I must have been led astray by your quotes. You already did a gypsy version. Originally Posted by christianm77
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