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There are so many methods of teaching jazz, a whole lot of different training materials / videos, books / that everyone can choose what suits them best. The most important is passion and motivation.
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02-27-2021 04:37 PM
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I haven't had time to decide whether I even like what I played here. Anyway, I always try to imagine that this is a jam situation and you get called (Nica's what??). Will check out the thread later.
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I read all the theory posts. Although I understood Nettles and Graf, I struggle to understand some of the posts on this forum.
I find myself unable to decide whether I'll really profit by diving into the rabbit hole (assuming I could even figure out how to do that) vs. stay with the much-less-theoretical approach I'm currently trying to pursue.
I remind myself that I can already scat sing better lines than I tend to play if I'm not careful. Seems to me I need to be able to play the lines I can already hear before I need to search for better lines to play.
When I read about what seem like very technical approaches to a tune, I have to remind myself that the posts are really about the practice room -- things to try to find good sounds.
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Good one. The feel/energy is right on, good time, and you're hitting the changes. I think it shades toward "blues/rock guy playing a jazz tune" and that could be something to switch up (or not), but it's definitely music and people listening would dig it.
Originally Posted by Peter C
John
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I'm going to try to translate some of these concepts into something close to Warren Nunes' system. Originally Posted by Reg
Warren said there are two types of chords, Type I and Type II.
Key of C:
Type I Cmaj7 Em7 Gmaj7 Am7
Type II Dm7 Fmaj7 G7 Am7 Bm7b5.
Within each type, the chords are interchangeable. So, Cmaj7=Em7=Gmaj7=Am7 for Type I. Type II works the same way.
So now lets look at Am7 in Recordame.
The Am7 exists, per Warren's system in several major keys. C, G, and F.
It also exists in some minor keys, Am for example, but I don't recall Warren's teaching on that point. He may have made it equal Cmajor.
Anyway, if you think Am7 is the iim in G (in Recordame) then, it's a Type II in G. Am7=Cmaj7=Em7=F#m7b5.
If you think it's a iiim in F you get a different set of relationships -- which may be wrong for the context.
If you think of Am as the tonic (I think) you get Cmaj7=Em7=Gmaj7=Am7.
If I consider Reg's use of fifths, it looks like I end up in the same place in terms of the chord names.
So, to sum up, it's white keys plus an F#.
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Peter C
Please don't take offense, but your post sounds like a mix of Paco De Lucia meets Pat Martino.
Do you listen to a lot of flamenco? Not just saying because it says you are from Spain on your posts.
The way you approach the "latin" grooves doesn't sound like anything else I've heard on this thread. It's like you have some sort of "in" with the rhythm section here that I want BAD. Especially when you do your repeated riffs.
And yet, you dig in like Pat Martino. LOVE IT!
That dance. Notes don't mean Jack Shiest if you don't have that dance. Theory, subs, all that is a mute point if you don't have that groove. I am digging on your groove, Mr. Peter C.
Hopefully my flamenco comment isn't far fetched or offensive. I was listening to a little flamenco in the car and then gave your post a listen--I hear a similarity. Here goes me making a fool of myself in the comparison
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Jeff, I enjoyed watching you draw and your boppy lines in the impro were great. I should go back to flatwounds and use some of that chromatic stuff.
I find Ronstuff's phrasing rhythmically interesting.
John A, well-schooled jazzing in your clip. Yes, I have to know a bit about changes in order to play lines over my own little compositions. They often kick my butt as a soloist, however. LOL. I kind of default to a bluesy feel, so am going to swap back to flatwounds as mentioned
Thanks for your feedback!
PickingMyEars, no offence taken at all. You saw the Martino-style ostinato straight away. I'm a native English speaker (born in London), but Spanish to most other intents and puposes, after so many years. You feel Flamenco here without even hearing it
I haven't read the other stuff discusssed here; way too many words to sift through.
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I still need to learn Spanish.
Some people love the sound of French... I think Spanish sounds more musical. Sounds like bebop with all those triplet dactylic words in the Spanish language.
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Rp,I liked that a lot, and bonus points for going solo. Remarkable how changing the style and tempo changes the tune completely...guys were saying "its dreamlike, its wistful" and I was like "sure buddy." Then I heard your take.
Peter, almost wouldn't have been out of place on a certain Night in San Francisco. I enjoyed.
Re: theory...hopefully, if folks get anything out of those posts, its that theory explains...not prescribes. I didn't need 4 paragraphs to tell me an Em7 sounds great on a Cmaj chord, but I'm also terrible at explaining stuff, so its always fun to read posts by people who do.
It (theory) is also important for cataloging sounds...I can know I like a sound, but knowing there's a concrete connection to something can help me access it in the future too.
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The first one was rubato, but this one is with a backing track at 175bpm. Same guitar, but this time through a Korg PX5D on a Tweed setting. Same Crate GFX15.
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I have a sure fire 2-step plan for success on that one: Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Step 1: Hire a saxophone player.
Step 2: Stroll
John
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About practical theory.The best for me is "On improvisation"by John Scofield.
In a one-hour video, you have practically everything...Among others f.ex.modes of jazz melodic minor scale-very intersting.
Best
Kris
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Peter C,
You use lick of the week/F Gb F Eb,E Gb F Eb/.
Nice take.I can hear a little Paco-energy.
Kris
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@Jeff I think simple rules of thumb are underappreciated.
If you learn you can put, for example F triad on that Bbm chord, you can spend time exploring and internalising that sound (and listening out for it) you don’t actually need to know that it comes from this or that chord scale.
Musicians don’t have to explain. There’s other people whose job it is to do that.
When you try to boil down music to a system, the options can be overwhelming and the system itself can take up too much attention, distracting away from what’s important; the music.
Scofield puts it well of course
John Scofield on Charlie Parker | DO THE M@THLast edited by christianm77; 02-28-2021 at 04:47 AM.
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@PeterC and rp: excellent takes by the both of you!
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Scof is the best for me.Thanks for the link. Originally Posted by christianm77
Kris
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"Jazz is perfect for recording. When they learned how to record, there was jazz. You didn’t have to write it all out.
Now that we’re in Covid-19, people are saying to me, “Well, now you can just, you know, sit back and relax and record a whole lot, and really get it right.”
But the whole thing is for us to get it right just on the spur of the moment. Laboring over jazz in the studio makes it worse!
After talking to the Old Masters — Miles included — that’s the message. Just do it right now. Study forever, but: Let it come through you, right now. For this kind of music to be really good, it has to just be coming through you.
It can be that lick that you know how to play, but that lick has to come through you. You can’t have thought about a half a second before. It has to be now.
That kind of inspiration is underrated in our society, even though everybody intuitively knows that what happens in a flash is what makes for good art."
John Scofield
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It’s such a great interview, so full of wisdom and practical advice
I’ve gained a tremendous amount from JS’s thoughts in particular over the years...
Which is funny because while I always enjoy his playing, he’s never been a player I sat down and studied in any depth. I always feel his touch, time and tone is so individual... defies analysis...
like all the great 50s horn players he sounds utterly individual and original even when he chooses to play ‘boilerplate’ bebop language.
Which only goes to show, of course...
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But I have been interested in Scof since the early 1980s. I have most of his CDs. I have transposed over a dozen of his solos. I have always been fascinated by what's inside. Originally Posted by christianm77
A unique guitarist - he plays differently at every concert. A real improviser and a great composer..
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John Scofield's solo on "wee" is the one of the most exciting and horn like guitar solos on rhythm changes that I've heard so far... and I've been collecting A LOT of rhythm changes:
DO THE M@TH is quickly becoming my favorite website for essays on jazz and such. The essay on Bud Powell is quite illuminating as well. All about that rhythm.
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Well thats exactly what I'm saying. I'll take the rules of thumb my ears tell me are cool, and let other folks do the stuff that feels like math. Originally Posted by christianm77
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wow I like the music on this this thread, good takes! Had a busy week, and just today I tried to play it, and damn, it's harder than I remember! I played it many times before but never recorded, and now I realized I didnt played it all that good. Not theory wise, but groove wise especially uptempo it's challenging.
I tried to add vibrato and bluesy stuff- didnt work. But I like how Peter C did it and it worked- dig it. I ended playing acoustic because the tele didnt sound natural with the track. I dont know why.
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Sounds great on acoustic, HTTJ!
(backing track could have been a bit louder...)
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With the careless whisper quote even! Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
Sounded great. Acoustic jazz can be tempting just to play a ton of notes the whole time, but you left good space too.
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Good playing but I can not hear any bass from background. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
Guitar sound exelent.
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Very clear and full sound on that dreadnaught
And we will never let that Careless Whisper down:
Honestly, Hep--seems like something you'd do when we were back in the ol' cottage cheeze of CCNY.
What happened to your Guild?
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43 million views wow Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
...where is Jazz?
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Good Jam...:-)Last edited by kris; 03-01-2021 at 06:13 AM.
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Kris and Tommo, I'm glad you enjoyed that.
However, I just honestly reflect what I would maybe do in a jam on a tune that I'd never played before, so I'm pulling it into to familiar territory as far as possible (flamenco tinged blues, if you like). On relistening, I only hear the bad notes, of which there is a plethora... but you gotta post something.
I have checked out the "tutorial" YT clip for this tune by Reg who sometimes posts here and, given time, would certainly try to cop some of that feel. I'd perhaps leave some of his knuckle-busting runs for some other time
Hep, that's a great feel! Dug it. Turn the backing up - tell the neighbours we can't hear it!
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Here's a take with my Elferink! Haven't played that tune in ages, so it's a bit of automated pilot mode (hehe, think i forgot about the E-7 A7 bars on the B section)..
.. Huge Horace Silver fan, have a gazillion cds!
Last edited by Alter; 02-28-2021 at 06:19 PM.
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Smooth Alter! Like you're having a conversation with an old friend
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Outstanding take. Originally Posted by Alter
Here's a take with my Elferink! Haven't played that tune in ages, so it's a bit of automated pilot mode (hehe, think i forgot about the E-7 A7 bars on the B section).. .. Huge Horace Silver fan, have a gazillion cds!
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Groove is great. Note choices are melodic and harmonically interesting. Puts me in mind of Wes. Great job! Originally Posted by Alter
Here's a take with my Elferink! Haven't played that tune in ages, so it's a bit of automated pilot mode (hehe, think i forgot about the E-7 A7 bars on the B section).. .. Huge Horace Silver fan, have a gazillion cds!
Edit: I just stole one of your licks. Thanks.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 03-01-2021 at 04:06 PM.
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Thanks, yea, I didnt think the setup very well, put the laptop too far from the phone, next time maybe put the backing track into PA. Originally Posted by kris
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Alter: Bossa in the monastery never sounded so good - top!
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He is not above the law! Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
He IS above the the law.
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Yes, but what a beautiful melody ... Originally Posted by christianm77
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Long take but really nice. Originally Posted by Alter
Here's a take with my Elferink! Haven't played that tune in ages, so it's a bit of automated pilot mode (hehe, think i forgot about the E-7 A7 bars on the B section).. .. Huge Horace Silver fan, have a gazillion cds!
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Here's my contribution:
Any comments welcome.
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Cool mood.The quote from Solar Miles Davis at the beginning draws attention and encourages listening. Originally Posted by TOMMO
Best
Kris
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Thank you kris! Originally Posted by kris
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Nice Solar quote. Overall, good feel, good tone, good ideas. Originally Posted by TOMMO
John
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Really nice one. I was afraid I might not be able to listen to that long a take, but it held my attention. That guitar sounds great, too. Originally Posted by Alter
Here's a take with my Elferink! Haven't played that tune in ages, so it's a bit of automated pilot mode (hehe, think i forgot about the E-7 A7 bars on the B section).. .. Huge Horace Silver fan, have a gazillion cds!
John
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Your solo really sings. Like kris, I loved the quote at the beginning though I couldn't remember where it came from (Thanks Kris for the ID!). Your tone and the quality of the sound on the clip is also really good. Originally Posted by TOMMO
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Thank you John! Originally Posted by John A.
Thanks lawson! Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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So this is my first take on this tune. I had never even looked at the lead sheet until it came up in this group, so on Friday I decided I'd work on this for a couple days then do a clip of whatever progress I'd made, the tune and the improvisation. From starting at zero, I think I've done pretty well. But clearly I have a long way to go!
I made the decision also not to slow it down too much. I've done this at about 75% of the default tempo of the backing track. I didn't want to drop into mystical floating sort of playing but to keep it crisp, the way the recordings I've heard do it.
I also find the backing track here, the Hal Leonard/Real Book track, to be really hard to play with. It has all that rhythmic shifting and slipping that makes this tune wonderful, but it's hard on me trying to figure out where the beat is!
Despite the many mistakes and clams, I'm happy to have this tune now in my head and more or less under my fingers. I've a long way to go, but I'm not intimidated but it anymore.
Any helpful observations or advice is welcome!
Last edited by lawson-stone; 03-02-2021 at 12:54 PM.
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Some nice ideas! Originally Posted by lawson-stone
I'm going to comment more on the backing/time issue.
A few years back I found myself in a small jam session with world class players (at least one name you all know) on bass and guitar. I was second guitar (I was a student). I can't recall who was playing drums. The tune was Samba Novo, which is a simple tune all except for the usual tempo which is breakneck. I've played the tune many times. We played it from a chart which I've had in my band book for years.
In other words, I should have been able to participate in this jam for this tune.
What then happened was that these great players took the tune into rhythmic outer space, playing beyond brilliantly. Whereupon, with my own chart in front of me of a tune I had memorized anyway, I got lost. I couldn't tell where the beat was. I think that they could hear it in their heads and that nobody was actually playing it for stretches. I don't have that kind of metronomic pounding in my head and I couldn't do it. I had to stop playing.
I'm fairly certain that this was driven by the bassist, because I've heard him do it in other contexts. The great players love it. I'm not certain about us mere mortals. In another session with the same bassist and a high level pro drummer, the drummer got excited, saying, "this time we weren't trying to play the music, we were playing it!"
So, now finally coming to my point, this whole thing about the rhythmic content of the backing track is yet another thing for the developing musician to get his/her mind around. If the track is known to be good, then I'd suggest listening to it over and over until you can feel it.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 03-02-2021 at 01:49 AM.
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I like the tone a lot! Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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You're almost there. I agree that this backing track is challenging. The ride cymbal is playing a tricky pattern that's hard to extract quarter notes from. On the original Art Blakey version, he's playing that pattern on the (closed) hi-hat and it's crisper and easier to follow Maybe try playing along with that rather than the backing track to see if that feels better? Originally Posted by lawson-stone
Also, I find it a lot easier to hear both time and form in the bass than in either the drums or piano on this tune (in both recordings and backing tracks). On the latin part, the bass figure lands on 1 and 4 right on the beat, so it gives a clear indication of the beginning and end of the measure. On the swing part the bass is right on 2 and 4.
John
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All Latin backing tracks tend to get tricky if one can't hear the bass clearly, cause, despite the claves, many times the bass is what's holding the groove together. And bass is often mixed way too low.
And then people will be listening on phones and laptops where it might not even be audible at all..
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Ralph Towner
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