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  1. #51

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    Now it's spot your quote time...

    Implied by the melody?
    Possibly, although we don't really know how it was composed. I do think that sound is redolent of the period, though. Tunes like Caravan, night club music echoing desert themes or belly dancers and all that. Exotic rather than sad, I think.

    I'm guessing (based on the title) it was meant to evoke a dream Nica described. So dreamlike, if not [insert pair of synonyms for puzzling here]. I actually don't perceive the song as "sad" or any other clichéd link between tonality and mood. It seems almost narrative to me.
    I certainly didn't feel 'sad' when playing it, I just enjoyed the dream-like quality of it and I suspect that was actually the point. So I'd go with John on that.

    Most colorful step of the classic minor Montuno pattern?
    I thought that was Christian doing his thing when I saw that but it wasn't :-) And I had to look it up. Definitely the right Latin rhythm they use. I just played the boring old Samba thing...

    What I was going to say was that I couldn't see much point in having two m/maj7 chords like that and not using that (mel m) sound. I think that's what I enjoyed most about it.

    Tell you one thing. You know that repeated pattern I used in the middle somewhere, then moved down, almost like rock guitar or something? Gosh, I haven't played one of those for years and years. But I could feel it needed it at that point so I just did it. Came quite naturally. Bit of a surprise :-)

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    A great discussion as if Nica's Dream were at least a symphony. In the case of jazz music, the name of the song is often quite accidental. This song could also be called Nica in Blue or simply Nica. The interpretation of the jazz musician is his subjective vision.
    It is similar with poetry - people interpret and understand it differently ...

  4. #53

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    The whole tone scale on m(maj7) seems an apt choice as well

    A WT on both minor maj7 chords

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    The whole tone scale on m(maj7) seems an apt choice as well

    A WT on both minor maj7 chords
    Great ideas from Andreas Oberg from about 10 years ago:

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    Great ideas from Andreas Oberg from about 10 years ago:
    it’s the same relationship; though I learned it listening to Wes

    I briefly use it on my recording. It’s fun!

  7. #56

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    WT ideas from Django over 251:

  8. #57

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    voxss: liked that a lot!

    I don't perceive the tune as sounding sad either - the melody is quite uplifting to my ears.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    WT ideas from Django over 251:
    If you watched the vid does he reference the original recordings were Django uses these sounds?

    There’s a LOT of Django.

    I know that lick though haha. Didn’t get it form Django, just seemed like an obvious thing to do with the diminished lick sweeping thing that everyone does.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    I know that lick though haha
    I picked up a similar lick from T.Bone Walker's playing where he shifts an augmented chord in full tone steps.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    voxss: liked that a lot!

    I don't perceive the tune as sounding sad either - the melody is quite uplifting to my ears.
    The minor key suggests some kind of sadness but the whole piece is not sad, maybe it's a kind of melancholy ...

  12. #61

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  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Most colorful step of the classic minor Montuno pattern?
    check out wes' comping


  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by voxsss
    Great solo of Louis Stewart on guitar.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    check out wes' comping

    Popular play with chromatically falling bass - often used in Latin music over minor chords.

  16. #65

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    Another great version by Louis Stewart (I saw him in London with this band once):


  17. #66

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    Great player LS-Louis Stewart

  18. #67

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    Nice version...great rhythm section.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    Great player LS-Louis Stewart
    Yes he is one of my favourites, I’ve managed to collect quite a few of his albums over the years (mostly unavailable now sadly), and taped some radio broadcasts (including the London gig from which Nica’s Dream was taken).

    At one gig I saw him at, he plonked his guitar down on my table after the first set and said ‘Would yer mind lookin’ after this while I heads off to the bar?’ (in a strong Irish accent). He must have thought I looked trustworthy I guess!

  20. #69

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    Oh, he did my lick at about 4.00 :-)

    I can safely say I didn't do any of his...

  21. #70

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    Every lick is good.

  22. #71

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  23. #72

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    LOUIS STEWART TRANSCRIPTIONS......https://louisstewart.wordpress.com/

  24. #73

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    Yeah so the thing is I think melodic minor harmony was mostly popularised as a concept to distinguish m(maj)7 sounds from m7 sounds (well technically Tristano was teaching it in the late 40s but bear with me.)

    Before then that’s just the general minor sound everyone used and the minor sound had influences from other scales too.

    The main thing to change was the use of the seventh chords as basic units of jazz harmony which means you have to call it - minor or Major seventh?

    m7 sounds as a base minor sound really came in with modal jazz. Before then it was just minor and everything seems to get mashed in together more or less.

    in bop, swing and as has been mentioned cuban music, the 7th is ‘mobile’ - it can be major or minor, but the main resting note is the 6th.

    you can hear Django and Charlie Christian shifting between melodic minor and dorian type sounds because their harmonic emphasis is on the m6 chord. You have classic bop lines like Bebop or Groovin High running 1-7-b7-6 which of course you also hear in standards like Blue Skies/In Walked Bud (not to mention baroque bass lines.)

    But even in the modal era there was still a lot of chopping and changing. You hear players like Wes, Herbie and Miles interchanging melodic minor and dorian quite freely. So that mobile 7th remains a resource and an important sound in the music.

    That’s why I don’t really like melodic minor as a concept as it’s really more complex. It’s more like ‘minor.’ I call it True Minor to separate it from Modal Minor (m7 etc.)

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Yeah so the thing is I think melodic minor harmony was mostly popularised as a concept to distinguish m(maj)7 sounds from m7 sounds (well technically Tristano was teaching it in the late 40s but bear with me.)

    Before then that’s just the general minor sound everyone used and the minor sound had influences from other scales too.

    The main thing to change was the use of the seventh chords as basic units of jazz harmony which means you have to call it - minor or Major seventh?

    m7 sounds as a base minor sound really came in with modal jazz. Before then it was just minor and everything seems to get mashed in together more or less.

    in bop, swing and as has been mentioned cuban music, the 7th is ‘mobile’ - it can be major or minor, but the main resting note is the 6th.

    you can hear Django and Charlie Christian shifting between melodic minor and dorian type sounds because their harmonic emphasis is on the m6 chord. You have classic bop lines like Bebop or Groovin High running 1-7-b7-6 which of course you also hear in standards like Blue Skies/In Walked Bud (not to mention baroque bass lines.)

    But even in the modal era there was still a lot of chopping and changing. You hear players like Wes, Herbie and Miles interchanging melodic minor and dorian quite freely. So that mobile 7th remains a resource and an important sound in the music.

    That’s why I don’t really like melodic minor as a concept as it’s really more complex. It’s more like ‘minor.’ I call it True Minor to separate it from Modal Minor (m7 etc.)
    Agree. "Minor" is an entity in this kind of jazz. Its not really melodic minor harmony (that does happen of course later on)

    To me this tune is just a good example of the 1950's fascination with "latin" culture. Lucy and Ricky and all that.

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Agree. "Minor" is an entity in this kind of jazz. Its not really melodic minor harmony (that does happen of course later on)

    To me this tune is just a good example of the 1950's fascination with "latin" culture. Lucy and Ricky and all that.
    It seems to me that melodic minor was used before. It fits perfectly with the altered dominants - it was played and played to this day / a half tone higher than the base of the dominant /.

  27. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    It seems to me that melodic minor was used before. It fits perfectly with the altered dominants - it was played and played to this day / a half tone higher than the base of the dominant /.
    The melodic minor has been used for hundreds of years. However, the idea of melodic minor harmony separate to simply minor harmony is pretty recent and certainly post dates modal jazz.

    what I am trying to say is if you look at a typical minor on dominant line like for example the melody on Night in Tunisia, you’ll see something that mixes the dorian and melodic minor very often.

    just go and have a careful look at the transcriptions of bop era solos you’ve made you’ll see what I mean.

    So older teachers and musos will teach this not as ‘such and such mode’ but actually as a sub formula - ii V relationship or what Barry Harris calls important minor. This offers more flexibility, as you can use all the minors as you wish.

    There’s absolutely nothing to stop you using the melodic minor sound; in fact it’s often used as you say; but it’s freely mixed with other minor sounds.

    and any major 7th sounds you might express on minor are not necessarily an obligatory part of the song.

    The reason why the melodic minor has to be defined as a separate thing to the dorian is down to that seventh being considered a part of the basic chord in modern pedagogy; you have to call it. Hence the confusion about this tune.

    But it’s not how those players composed and improvised their lines.
    Last edited by christianm77; 02-27-2021 at 11:35 AM.

  28. #77

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    Yeah, I didn't mean people didn't play MM....I meant they weren't basing whole tunes on it, or modes or scales at all-- yet.

    Hey, lets do Inner Urge next week!

    (Just kidding. Maybe)

  29. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.beaumont
    Agree. "Minor" is an entity in this kind of jazz. Its not really melodic minor harmony (that does happen of course later on)

    To me this tune is just a good example of the 1950's fascination with "latin" culture. Lucy and Ricky and all that.
    Yeah it’s quite a subtle thing. People who categorise things from a neat modern theory perspective will just look at these things and go ‘melodic minor’ especially as all those sounds are played to some extent at least.

    Basically in terms of making convincing jazz language it sounds good to mix it up. But if you are checking out the music carefully, you will already know that of course, whether you use the term Melodic Minor or not.

    I just think people get a bit shy about going outside the melodic minor scale when you talk about it being Melodic Minor, so want to steer away from that when teaching unless I really do mean it.
    Last edited by christianm77; 02-27-2021 at 11:38 AM.

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Yeah, I didn't mean people didn't play MM....I meant they weren't basing whole tunes on it, or modes or scales at all-- yet.

    Hey, lets do Inner Urge next week!

    (Just kidding. Maybe)
    Inner Urge as a gypsy swinger

  31. #80

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    OK... so I'm old and have been performing for over 50 years. I not calling anything wrong... but I am saying there are also different understanding of what, why and how different jazz harmony and melodic concepts can work.

    For me the embellishment approach just misses way to much. Like I've probable said before....modal jazz is not middle age melodic melody types, and embellishments etc...

    Modal concepts expanded to also include Harmonic influence and behavior. If you understand the concept of Function in music, the tonic, subdominant and dominant concepts... basic Maj/Min functional harmony... Which generally becomes... V I etc... Modal concepts expanded the Subdominant harmonic doors in Jazz.

    Modal jazz expands Subdominant relationships. OK simple example, Recorda Me or Remember me Was virtual tune, a few weeks back. (can also work on Nica's)

    Take the 1st 8 bars, A-7 to C-7
    If you add modal concepts to A-7, you can create harmonic or melodic movement.

    A-7 Dorian, If you use Modal Functional relationship, ( which have harmonic and melodic organization) which help keep the bigger picture together while one gets lost in the details, the tree and the forest etc... sorry

    1) A-7.... the relative Major would be Cma7, Lydian. Now if you expand that relative relationship, modally you also
    get E-7, (Aeolian) and it's relative may Gma7, (Ionian).
    ... A-7...Cma7...E-7...Gmaj7

    2) Now expand even further, use intervals of 5ths... (bass players will relate)

    A-7 becomes...A E B or A-9
    Cma7 ..............C G D or Cma9
    E-7...................E B F# or E-9
    Gma7...............G D A or Gmaj9

    You end up with Chord tones of A-7 becoming chords with modal relationships using relative and intervals of 5th.

    You can keep expanding.... add a modal melodic relationship A- pentatonic A C D E G , which can become chords constructed on A- pentatonic scale, just add the D chord, and instead of D7 or D9 and make sus chords. generally with modal concepts your careful with use of tritones and Dominant functional implications.

    Generally you just use Chord patterns approach. Which can make the D7 the implied V7 chord of A-7, which creates different functional use of Dominant chords.

    If you just expand this approach to Melodic Minor... A-7 to A-ma7.... you can end up with a different pentatonic melodic pattern... A C D E F#, which most think of as D dominant pent. or D9.

    Now you've almost opened the Blue Note Door.....

    Again sorry to BS, I'm lazy.... easier than getting out guitar and recording.

  32. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    The melodic minor has been used for hundreds of years. However, the idea of melodic minor harmony separate to simply minor harmony is pretty recent and certainly post dates modal jazz.

    what I am trying to say is if you look at a typical minor on dominant line like for example the melody on Night in Tunisia, you’ll see something that mixes the dorian and melodic minor very often.

    just go and have a careful look at the transcriptions of bop era solos you’ve made you’ll see what I mean.

    So older teachers and musos will teach this not as ‘such and such mode’ but actually as a sub formula - ii V relationship or what Barry Harris calls important minor. This offers more flexibility, as you can use all the minors as you wish.

    There’s absolutely nothing to stop you using the melodic minor sound; in fact it’s often used as you say; but it’s freely mixed with other minor sounds.

    and any major 7th sounds you might express on minor are not necessarily an obligatory part of the song.

    The reason why the melodic minor has to be defined as a separate thing to the dorian is down to that seventh being considered a part of the basic chord in modern pedagogy; you have to call it. Hence the confusion about this tune.

    But it’s not how those players composed and improvised their lines.
    I am not sure what melodic minor you are talking?
    -jazz melodic minor is different than melodic minor.
    -jazz melodic minor sometimes called jazz scale.
    I know melodic minor from the school-I learned classical guitar and doublebass.It has been used for hundreds of years.

  33. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    OK... so I'm old and have been performing for over 50 years. I not calling anything wrong... but I am saying there are also different understanding of what, why and how different jazz harmony and melodic concepts can work.

    For me the embellishment approach just misses way to much. Like I've probable said before....modal jazz is not middle age melodic melody types, and embellishments etc...

    Modal concepts expanded to also include Harmonic influence and behavior. If you understand the concept of Function in music, the tonic, subdominant and dominant concepts... basic Maj/Min functional harmony... Which generally becomes... V I etc... Modal concepts expanded the Subdominant harmonic doors in Jazz.

    Modal jazz expands Subdominant relationships. OK simple example, Recorda Me or Remember me Was virtual tune, a few weeks back. (can also work on Nica's)

    Take the 1st 8 bars, A-7 to C-7
    If you add modal concepts to A-7, you can create harmonic or melodic movement.

    A-7 Dorian, If you use Modal Functional relationship, ( which have harmonic and melodic organization) which help keep the bigger picture together while one gets lost in the details, the tree and the forest etc... sorry

    1) A-7.... the relative Major would be Cma7, Lydian. Now if you expand that relative relationship, modally you also
    get E-7, (Aeolian) and it's relative may Gma7, (Ionian).
    ... A-7...Cma7...E-7...Gmaj7

    2) Now expand even further, use intervals of 5ths... (bass players will relate)

    A-7 becomes...A E B or A-9
    Cma7 ..............C G D or Cma9
    E-7...................E B F# or E-9
    Gma7...............G D A or Gmaj9

    You end up with Chord tones of A-7 becoming chords with modal relationships using relative and intervals of 5th.

    You can keep expanding.... add a modal melodic relationship A- pentatonic A C D E G , which can become chords constructed on A- pentatonic scale, just add the D chord, and instead of D7 or D9 and make sus chords. generally with modal concepts your careful with use of tritones and Dominant functional implications.

    Generally you just use Chord patterns approach. Which can make the D7 the implied V7 chord of A-7, which creates different functional use of Dominant chords.

    If you just expand this approach to Melodic Minor... A-7 to A-ma7.... you can end up with a different pentatonic melodic pattern... A C D E F#, which most think of as D dominant pent. or D9.

    Now you've almost opened the Blue Note Door.....

    Again sorry to BS, I'm lazy.... easier than getting out guitar and recording.
    Yeah it’s the same stuff, differently expressed (at least I think it is)?
    Last edited by christianm77; 02-27-2021 at 01:14 PM.

  34. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    I am not sure what melodic minor you are talking?
    -jazz melodic minor is different than melodic minor.
    -jazz melodic minor sometimes called jazz scale.
    I know melodic minor from the school-I learned classical guitar and doublebass.It has been used for hundreds of years.
    Any one you like!

    in jazz melodic minor generally means that the ascending form only.

    But it turns out the classical ascending/descending thing is... not true. I’m looking at a piece of baroque lute music atm and there’s a fairly typical example of the ascending A melodic minor form used in descent over an E pedal. You might know it; Kellner’s Phantasia in Am?

    It needs to be that because of the G# in the E chord. That’s the whole point of it. The F#’s just there to even out the steps.

    So anyway, in jazz they didn’t seem to care so much; we look at jazz charts and see things like the the descending melodic minor form/natural minor/ aeolian used in the same situation.

    Example

    Blue Bossa descending C natural minor over a G7 chord. Honking Bb in the melody, G7 in the harmony. So we could say that’s an altered dominant sure, but it’s also a case of what happens when you play a minor 2 5 1 under a descending minor melody. You see an awful lot of this in jazz. And that’s probably where the 7#9 chord comes from.

    A blues note, in fact.

    (TBH many soloists simply express 7#9 chords as minor chords but that’s another thread.)

    So anyway.... a little beside the point, as that’s more about the scale form a key rather than chord perspective but jazz musicians were I think a lot more melodic in their use of minor so to speak.

  35. #84

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    Another massive difference with say, Bach and Kellner, is in the fact that jazz musicians regard the major sixth as a consonant colour sound on the minor chord. This I think in the 30s? (Might be earlier)

    m6 is also very common sub in dominant chords, up a 5th. (Half diminished chords were thought of as m6 in this era anyway.)

    Later on, Billy Strayhorn popularised the major seventh as a colour tone on the minor chord... (1940s)

    In the 40s it becomes common to hear the tritone’s minor ‘altered scale’ used

    minor seventh became popular after Kind of Blue (1959)

    So it’s easy to see how melodic ‘jazz’ minor became a thing. (It was already a thing in Tristano’s circle by late 1940s according to Peter Ind)

    jazz musicians were always likely to play the Jazz Minor and Dorian scales on Im chords long before Miles or Herbie.

  36. #85

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    Mommy, I'm scared. The Theory Monsters are back. Please Mommy, don't let the Theory Monsters get me.

    Don't worry boychik, all you need to do is side slip a little this way, then that way, and you'll be safe.

    Thanks Mommy, I feel so much better now.

    That's good dear, and when you're done with that you can try some modal interchange, and treat all your major tonal centers as Lydian modes and all your dominants as subdominants and ...

    Oh no Mommy, the Theory Monsters have got you too! Help! Somebody please help me! The Theory Monsters got my Mommy!

    John

  37. #86

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    hey kris... I was trying to imply jazz usage. Traditional classical musical practice and typical concepts like ascending and descending control applications etc... are cool, but not what most think of as jazz application.

    Maybe... when I say Diatonic and functional chords, arpeggios, scales, embellishments ... any label you want, of Cmaj. or A-7
    What do yo hear, think etc...

    As a jazz player, performer, I don't just think, or hear, (which is the same thing, scales, arps, chord, extensions etc... are all the same thing , just different label, classification or organization of.)

    Ok... all the scales, arps and chords with embellishments constructed from Cmaj scale.

    I always also always think and hear all the different "Modal" diatonic functional scales, chords, chord patterns etc...

    The use of modal implies other functional organization, other possible relationships. You need to get past the misconceptions of CST.... it's not about what scale, it's about the organizations implied.

    Of course, understanding Basic Maj./ min functional organization is one and all of the organizational concepts. And also no one just used only one concept at a time. Relative and parallel functional relationships, expanding borrowing through Modal interchange.

    And MM has many common practice usages and can also use Modal Functional organization... then personally, and many other performers also include Blue Notes and blue note concepts. Which when used with modal concepts helps create different jazz results, different sound.


    Christian... becoming a thing isn't the point I was trying to establish. I was trying to open some improv doors to help
    non jazz players and beginners and on up the ladders of performance... to start understanding modal jazz concepts and applications with performance and composition.

    I understand you tend to think of many of my concepts as embellishments, and try and fit them into your personal box of understandings. And it's cool, I don't care. But please try and not white wash everything, it's not "the same stuff".

    Sorry about being a theory monster... I'll stop.

  38. #87

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    John A, I sympathise with you, I don’t give a f**k about any of this theory verbal diarrhoea either.

  39. #88

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    I think there's a place for it. It's okay where it's relevant. Personally, I just play what suits, not because it's expected. And I like the mel m sound generally speaking, it's interesting in the right places. And I thought it was in this tune.

  40. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    modal jazz is not middle age melodic melody types
    that's easy for you to say

  41. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    hey kris... I was trying to imply jazz usage. Traditional classical musical practice and typical concepts like ascending and descending control applications etc... are cool, but not what most think of as jazz application.

    Maybe... when I say Diatonic and functional chords, arpeggios, scales, embellishments ... any label you want, of Cmaj. or A-7
    What do yo hear, think etc...

    As a jazz player, performer, I don't just think, or hear, (which is the same thing, scales, arps, chord, extensions etc... are all the same thing , just different label, classification or organization of.)

    Ok... all the scales, arps and chords with embellishments constructed from Cmaj scale.

    I always also always think and hear all the different "Modal" diatonic functional scales, chords, chord patterns etc...

    The use of modal implies other functional organization, other possible relationships. You need to get past the misconceptions of CST.... it's not about what scale, it's about the organizations implied.

    Of course, understanding Basic Maj./ min functional organization is one and all of the organizational concepts. And also no one just used only one concept at a time. Relative and parallel functional relationships, expanding borrowing through Modal interchange.

    And MM has many common practice usages and can also use Modal Functional organization... then personally, and many other performers also include Blue Notes and blue note concepts. Which when used with modal concepts helps create different jazz results, different sound.


    Christian... becoming a thing isn't the point I was trying to establish. I was trying to open some improv doors to help
    non jazz players and beginners and on up the ladders of performance... to start understanding modal jazz concepts and applications with performance and composition.

    I understand you tend to think of many of my concepts as embellishments, and try and fit them into your personal box of understandings. And it's cool, I don't care. But please try and not white wash everything, it's not "the same stuff".

    Sorry about being a theory monster... I'll stop.
    Reg, so this is how I interpret what you're saying (at least the big picture of it, if not all the details): 1. Analyzing and understanding harmony and melody in terms of functional harmony and embellishment leads to playing lines that don't stray far from chord tones of what's written in a chart. If you want want your playing to incorporate sounds that are farther away from those vanilla sounds, you have to (intellectually) build a framework that allows you to talk about how collections of non-vanilla notes connect to a composition, and then practice patterns spawned by that framework. CST (as you learned it and use the term) is such a framework (and not just a list of which scales go with which chords). You (i.e.. C77) can reduce anything to functional harmony, but doing that stands in the way of playing more outside and adventurous material. Is that it? If so, it makes sense to me. I mean that's what the people who expanded the sound of jazz beyond swing and bebop in the 50s-70s did, though not all did so in a formal academic sense.

    John

  42. #91

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    I already made bad on my promise to keep a lid on scale/ harmony theory talk...

    I blame myself for this

    Wnat aboots rhythm? Phrasing? Feel?

    In the past couple of months I've been focusing on how and when I release a note. I mentioned that to Lawson-stone because I heard him doing the same. Hard to remember to release/ lift off a note on a guitar. Much easier to keep it ringing.

    Bebop, Hardbop, and Latin--all of it, really, important to know how to control each note you play. Punctuation if you will.

    I'm still a 1 and 3 guy in terms of tapping me footsie. There's still a huge divide on where ya put ya metronome click or where ya tap ya foots. 1 and 3 still gives me more control of my feel than 2 and 4.

    For when the tempo gets 200bpm and above I try to puts my metronomy click on the downbeat of each 2 measures. Mark the small phrase--4 measures is da big phrase. 8 measures is the extra large with a Coke and fries phrase. I dunno if Coltrane liked McDonalds, but he sure did like those extra large phrases.

    Where does the phrase start and where does it clock out? What notes/ themes (not scale) are carried through the solo.

    What would Wes Do?

    That's my effort to talk about something else than scales that relates to the music. I dunno if I succeeded. Reg, help me out here

  43. #92

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    U
    Quote Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
    I already made bad on my promise to keep a lid on scale/ harmony theory talk...

    I blame myself for this

    Wnat aboots rhythm? Phrasing? Feel?

    In the past couple of months I've been focusing on how and when I release a note. I mentioned that to Lawson-stone because I heard him doing the same. Hard to remember to release/ lift off a note on a guitar. Much easier to keep it ringing.

    Bebop, Hardbop, and Latin--all of it, really, important to know how to control each note you play. Punctuation if you will.

    I'm still a 1 and 3 guy in terms of tapping me footsie. There's still a huge divide on where ya put ya metronome click or where ya tap ya foots. 1 and 3 still gives me more control of my feel than 2 and 4.

    For when the tempo gets 200bpm and above I try to puts my metronomy click on the downbeat of each 2 measures. Mark the small phrase--4 measures is da big phrase. 8 measures i the extra large with a Coke and fries phrase. I dunno if Coltrane liked McDonalds, but he sure did like those extra large phrases.

    That's my effort to talk about something else than scales that relates to the music. I dunno if I succeeded. Reg, help me out here
    Try this. Say the beat (in 2 or 4) and play the upbeats.

    I find this a bit of a roast lol, but getting better.

    As one of my teachers (a drummer) puts it, rhythmic independence is always a good way to work on rhythm...

  44. #93

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    I like 1 and 3 cause it helps frame everything when I try to make an arse of me-self and double time

  45. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    Reg, so this is how I interpret what you're saying (at least the big picture of it, if not all the details): 1. Analyzing and understanding harmony and melody in terms of functional harmony and embellishment leads to playing lines that don't stray far from chord tones of what's written in a chart. If you want want your playing to incorporate sounds that are farther away from those vanilla sounds, you have to (intellectually) build a framework that allows you to talk about how collections of non-vanilla notes connect to a composition, and then practice patterns spawned by that framework. CST (as you learned it and use the term) is such a framework (and not just a list of which scales go with which chords). You (i.e.. C77) can reduce anything to functional harmony, but doing that stands in the way of playing more outside and adventurous material. Is that it? If so, it makes sense to me. I mean that's what the people who expanded the sound of jazz beyond swing and bebop in the 50s-70s did, though not all did so in a formal academic sense.

    John
    Bloody hell everyone thinks I’m a pure functional harmony guy.

    oh well can only blame myself lol. But no. Not for a while.

    personally I decided on listening carefully to the music of that generation and seeing what I find. It’s not CST exactly, because; well CST hadn’t really been formulated. CST itself had a different function at the outset than later on.

    I actually think what Reg is saying is closer to the way it was originally used, which as ideas and resources as opposed to now where it’s meant to teach how to play jazz. Which it doesn’t very well.

  46. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
    I like 1 and 3 cause it helps frame everything when I try to make an arse of me-self and double time
    Not sure what that means, but my main reason for practicing that type of thing was to get better at playing fast tempos (220+) without playing a zillion notes on one hand or sounding like I was playing at half speed on the other... needs well placed upbeats!

    i think I’m getting better as I cringe more at recordings of myself. always a sign of growth.

  47. #96

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    This is home style. The couch where I practice and the cheapo gear I usually use there. That's the cheapest Yamaha Pacifica Strat copy (012) with a Lil 59. Also a Crate amp (GFX15) that sold new for under $100. Also, this is what I'd be likely to do if I was noodling a tune on the couch.

    Theory? Well, I know the chord tones and the sound of the minmaj chords and I've played the tune many times so I didn't think about much of anything. Just focused on the mood.

    I did use some chord voicings I figured out myself some time back. x x 8 10 10 9 and x x 11 14 13 13. Having these handy allows for creating a little melody in the soprano voice (high E string, mostly) while maintaining the Bbmelmin sound. I learned from Mark Levine's Jazz Theory that melodic minor voicings are interchangeable -- which was a rare Aha moment. I actually don't hear the Ebm7 Ab7 change. I hear the first ii V as Abm7 Db7. But, I had just poisoned my mind by looking at the chart and I threw it in. Worst notes in the clip.



    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 02-27-2021 at 10:21 PM.

  48. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
    There's still a huge divide on where ya put ya metronome click or where ya tap ya foots. 1 and 3 still gives me more control of my feel than 2 and 4.
    dont loose any sleep over it. it did not matter 90 years ago and it does not matter now.


  49. #98

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    Try these three note voicings for Bbm(maj7)

    X X X 6 6 8
    X X X 5 2 5
    x x 7 6 6 x
    x 8 7 6 x x
    x 4 3 5 x x

    Some familiar, some less so....

  50. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    This is home style. The couch where I practice and the cheapo gear I usually use there. That's the cheapest Yamaha Pacifica Strat copy (012) with a Lil 59. Also a Crate amp that sold new for under $100. Also, this is what I'd be likely to do if I was noodling a tune on the couch.

    Theory? Well, I know the chord tones and the sound of the minmaj chords and I've played the tune many times so I didn't think about much of anything. Just focused on the mood.

    I did use some chord voicings I figured out myself some time back. x x 8 10 10 9 and x x 11 14 13 13. Having these handy allows for creating a little melody in the soprano voice (high E string, mostly) while maintaining the Bbmelmin sound. I learned from Mark Levine's Jazz Theory that melodic minor voicings are interchangeable -- which was a rare Aha moment. I actually don't hear the Ebm7 Ab7 change. I the first ii V as Abm7 Db7. But, I had just poisoned my mind by looking at the chart and I threw it in. Worst notes in the clip.



    Wait... this is a PLAYING thread??? Gosh, I'd almost forgotten!

  51. #100

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    I hope you all don't shoot your total wad of enthusiasm for this tune too soon. Some of us who haven't been playing this tune for decades on end are having to learn it, learn the structure, practice the improvisational ideas, etc. I'm worried that by the time I post my clip you'll already be jumping onto the Next Big Tune.

    But then going unnoticed might not be all bad...