The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    Had to take another pass at it...

    I'm liking both F#m/Gm pent over the sus chords AND C#m/Dm.
    Oh the places you'll go.


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  3. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Had to take another pass at it...

    I'm liking both F#m/Gm pent over the sus chords AND C#m/Dm.
    Oh the places you'll go.
    I like the way you're building that up, nice feel, gaining intensity. At around 0:18 you're hitting an E (G dorian) which I don't hear over F7. C dorian would have the Eb...

  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter C
    I like the way you're building that up, nice feel, gaining intensity. At around 0:18 you're hitting an E (G dorian) which I don't hear over F7. C dorian would have the Eb...
    All reflexes there. I've never thought about a mode in my life...and probably never played a minor pentatonic where I didn't add a 6th and a 9th. Old blues habits die hard

  5. #79

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    Don't think the E7sus/F7sus is the only obstacle. There's also the Ebm/Ab7 which may look straightforward but isn't.

    In Shorter's original, the Ebm/Ab7 is actually Bbm. Try it and see.

    The two sus chords are A/F#m and Bb/Gm in the melody and D/Bm and Bb/Gm in the solo.

    (The melody over the E7sus looks like E/C#m but it's not).

  6. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
    TOMMO, I am totally envious of your living room space. Does that Robert Johnson poster intimidate you or inspire you? In my office, I have a huge B&W poster of Wes Montgomery posing with his guitar. He's smiling, but that stare ain't always so friendly. It's as if he is telling me "you gotta make it groove and pop, or you ain't gonna be playing anything at all!"
    It's more inspriring than intimidating. R.J.'s music keeps inspiring me after all the years I've been listening to it and try to play it. And so should W.M.'s poster in your office.

  7. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Had to take another pass at it...

    I'm liking both F#m/Gm pent over the sus chords AND C#m/Dm.
    Oh the places you'll go.

    Superb, Jeff!

    As for the sus chords: I may have been misled in a good way because I've been working from a chord sheet that specifies Bm and Cm harmony and I went from there.

  8. #82

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    My practice room has only heard jazz played, but the posters are Tom Waits, Toots and the Maytals and (prior to an incident) Elvis Costello. Got them from record stores throwing away the window displays many years ago.

    I've really appreciated the discussion about how people approach this tune. Thanks to all.

  9. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    As for the sus chords: I may have been misled in a good way because I've been working from a chord sheet that specifies Bm and Cm harmony and I went from there.

    NB: This isn't 'theory', this is just communication!


    If it was an E7 you'd still play Bm because it's the ii. The Bm pent has the A in it which is the sus note of E7sus. If you treat the E7sus as a Bm11 chord, you can sub F#m pent.

    You just liked my post above (#81). Shorter does different things in the solo than the head.

    To get a sus sound with pentatonics:

    Over a minor chord, play from the 5th - i.e. A minor pent over Dm. (Wes used that a lot).

    Over a dom7, play from a tone above - i.e. A minor pent over G7.

    The best way to get this is to play it because it's the sound that matters, not all the boring explanations.



    That's why they do Bbm over the Ebm-Ab7 in Night Dreamer, because it gives the sus sound. And then F#m (5th of Bm) and Gm for the two sus chords.

    I'm not laying down the law. There are always other ways of doing things.

  10. #84

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    Good info. I wasn't aware of the rule, but my ears sure agree.

    Re: practice rooms....ah yes...I had one once. Pre children. Now it's just the kitchen table with my kids' e-learning stuff stacked in a corner behind me, in front of my little cabiet shutters that I measured the spaces for about 50 times before I cut them, and they still don't close properly. Cabinet maker, I'm not.

  11. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Don't think the E7sus/F7sus is the only obstacle. There's also the Ebm/Ab7 which may look straightforward but isn't.

    In Shorter's original, the Ebm/Ab7 is actually Bbm. Try it and see.

    The two sus chords are A/F#m and Bb/Gm in the melody and D/Bm and Bb/Gm in the solo.

    (The melody over the E7sus looks like E/C#m but it's not).
    I'm hearing Ebm9 Ab13b9 in the piano

  12. #86

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    Ragman: I'm aware of what you said in your post re: sus4 chords/sounds - I think I just meant to say that I didn't have to suss out* what to play there because I was just playing over Bm and Cm.



    * pun intended....




    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Over a dom7, play from a tone above - i.e. A minor pent over G7.
    ...or play a major triad from a tone below?

  13. #87

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    Wayne and Lee Morgan seem to favour an Ebm pent/dorian sound on the Ebm7 Ab7. Not sure what ragman is referring to...
    Last edited by christianm77; 02-22-2021 at 11:35 AM.

  14. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    ...or play a major triad from a tone below?
    Yes, more or less the same thing but more limited. An F triad wouldn't have the E or G in it.

  15. #89

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    if you think about II V progession -the V is not altered...play notes without alteration.
    Ebm7----Bbm penta
    Ab7---- Ebm penta,Bbm penta


    ps.
    on a static V - I usualy play melodic min scale 5 up....if you do not like minor penta.

  16. #90

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    Christian -

    I'm hearing Ebm9 Ab13b9 in the piano
    So the piano man embellished it. It's called jazz. It's what they do, you know :-)

    Sax solo transcription in A -

    Shorter - Night Dreamer sheet music for tenor saxophone solo (transcription)

    Notes played over Fm/Bb7:

    Head: Bb C Ab C

    Solo: Eb C Ab G F Bb

    That's from Cm (not an Fm. Same scale, different usage):

    C D Eb F G Ab Bb

    So Bbm in G.

    Anyway, I don't actually care what they played, I'm only concerned with what works. An outlined Ebm sounds tame, Bbm sounds right in context.

  17. #91

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    But the real point is what we do with it, not what Shorter did. If it sounds nice, it is.

  18. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    This is what I hear first chorus solo

    Eb Bb Gb F F Eb Bb

    EDIT: the transcription has it the same.

    Nice diatonic Eb Dorian phrase ending up on the Bb7 root. Couldn't be more obvious or songlike really. Easy one to hear.

    Second time
    Ab Bb Eb Gb Eb F
    Again, Eb Dorian with a strong pentatonic influence.

    I also love the way he starts his solo on the 4th 'Avoid' note on G major lol, and then resolutely ignores the G major chord for most of his solo, playing G minor pentatonic.

    Wayne tells you how to play these tunes. It's not the only solution, but it's usually best in my experience to listen to him first.

  19. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    But the real point is what we do with it, not what Shorter did. If it sounds nice, it is.
    Bb minor pentatonic is quite a Wes choice on Eb minor

  20. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    if you think about II V progession -the V is not altered...play notes without alteration.
    Ebm7----Bbm penta
    Ab7---- Ebm penta,Bbm penta


    ps.
    on a static V - I usualy play melodic min scale 5 up....if you do not like minor penta.
    As a sidebar, I might live to regret making this big of a statement, but, I have no compelling evidence from my listening yet to suggest that Wayne in this era was using melodic minor mode harmony. I hear, modes, pentatonic (A LOT), half-whole and whole tone, but not melodic minor.

    As for his writing, there's a bit of a difference as to how his charts get interpreted by different pianists.

    Dim scale seems like a big thing at this point actually.

    He often writes 7 chords we would expect as 7#11 as 7b5 in his own charts. Which suggests he was thinking of these chords as pretty much the same thing, something that would come from more diminished scale thinking. A good example is Deluge where McCoy plays a diminished scale thing in thirds on the IV7#11 chord.

    On this song, McCoy often plays Ab13b9. The soloists seem mostly to use diatonic choices.

  21. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Bb minor pentatonic is quite a Wes choice on Eb minor
    I know, I said that in #85.

    ' i.e. A minor pent over Dm. (Wes used that a lot)'

  22. #96

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    People can play whatever they like!

    I'm quite interested to know what my favourite musicians played though. Maybe it's just me. *shrugs*

  23. #97

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    And it's only Monday

    It might be time to start messing up knicker's dream...


  24. #98

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    My thought to post these jams before the weekend is working out I wanted to give people a reason to participate early--and keep it fresh.

    I'm ready for Nica, but I'll hold off til Thursday. I can tell you that in my opinion, Nica is TOUGH. Gonna be a while before I feel like hitting that red button and capturing my playing

  25. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    My thought to post these jams before the weekend is working out I wanted to give people a reason to participate early--and keep it fresh.

    I'm ready for Nica, but I'll hold off til Thursday. I can tell you that in my opinion, Nica is TOUGH. Gonna be a while before I feel like hitting that red button and capturing my playing
    It's also a tune that is surprising in the acoustic format. Joe Pass did it with the "For Django" crew on this album Appassionato, which is one of may favorites of his. Loaded with wonderful tunes, performed with a lot of energy, and all acoustic. I think Joe plays an Epiphone that belonged to John Pisano's dad on that album.

  26. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    My thought to post these jams before the weekend is working out I wanted to give people a reason to participate early--and keep it fresh.

    I'm ready for Nica, but I'll hold off til Thursday. I can tell you that in my opinion, Nica is TOUGH. Gonna be a while before I feel like hitting that red button and capturing my playing
    'Xactly :-)