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  1. #201

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    I really can't shake the idea that if I'm in this group I need to do the tune. But as you know, I'm not totally comfortable, to say the least, with this. So here are two choruses but I really don't get this tune.

    Maybe what I need to get REALLY angry at the tune, then play it as a kind of assault on it. Anger and hard-bop seem somehow to fit together.

    Sounds good!

    Hard bop needs a bit of vibe, a bit of grit.

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  3. #202

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    Another way of looking at that A section is that it’s half (well two thirds) of a Giant Steps

    GS (in the same key)

    G Bb7 Eb F#7 B D7

    Night Dreamer
    G Bb7 Eb D7

    i don’t know if that makes it easier, but it means the tune is at least easier than Giant Steps haha

    It also means that this tune might be a good halfway house to aim for before approaching Gs changes.

    The difference is you can always play the blues scale on it... can’t do that on Coltrane changes!

  4. #203

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Another way of looking at that A section is that it’s half (well two thirds) of a Giant Steps
    it's also the first half of "here's that rainy day" which shows you how far out those wayne shorter changes are...

  5. #204

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Another way of looking at that A section is that it’s half (well two thirds) of a Giant Steps

    GS (in the same key)

    G Bb7 Eb F#7 B D7

    Night Dreamer
    G Bb7 Eb D7

    i don’t know if that makes it easier, but it means the tune is at least easier than Giant Steps haha

    It also means that this tune might be a good halfway house to aim for before approaching Gs changes.

    The difference is you can always play the blues scale on it... can’t do that on Coltrane changes!
    You need to learn about the Giant Steps first to apply this idea, for non-advanced players this is hardly possible.
    I avoid blues scale - it is too easy for me, although the effect can be impressive at times if you use the blues scale in a balanced way.

  6. #205

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    There is another intersting idea taken from well known spanish progresion:
    gm F/ Eb D.... can be Gmaj7 Fm/Ebmaj7D7
    Very creative thinking...

  7. #206

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    I'm glad that you changed your mind, Lawson and gave that tune a try. Turned out to be a fine one to boot!

  8. #207

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    Seeing all this controversy, I thought I'd better have a go! I just simplify this tune to 4 chords: G(m), Ab7, Bm, Cm. Actually the hardest bit was playing the melody, trying to get the rhythms correct on that middle bit.


  9. #208

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Seeing all this controversy, I thought I'd better have a go! I just simplify this tune to 4 chords: G(m), Ab7, Bm, Cm. Actually the hardest bit was playing the melody, trying to get the rhythms correct on that middle bit.

    Sounds great! And proof you can make this work with a "traditional" jazz tone-- as long as your feel is right (and yours definitely is)

  10. #209

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris View Post
    You need to learn about the Giant Steps first to apply this idea, for non-advanced players this is hardly possible.
    I avoid blues scale - it is too easy for me, although the effect can be impressive at times if you use the blues scale in a balanced way.
    Wayne uses the pentatonic, so *shrug*

    I don’t see why you have to learn Giant Steps first. Learn ND first, and then complete the giant steps cycle later.

    put a modified version of the ND progression in G/Eb and Eb/B and you’ve broken the back of Giant Steps.

    D7 G Bb7 Eb
    Bb7 Eb F#7 B

    everything else is easy (2 5 1s) after that

  11. #210

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Seeing all this controversy, I thought I'd better have a go! I just simplify this tune to 4 chords: G(m), Ab7, Bm, Cm. Actually the hardest bit was playing the melody, trying to get the rhythms correct on that middle bit.

    Well there you go

    Note that Wayne has Bb on the G chord in the melody as well. So that’s how he heard it. And then there’s the solo.

    but I’m sure theorists know how to play his music better than he does. The chord scale police would have arrested Wayne long ago.

    BTW that backing track is a bit much. Is it an Aebersold?

  12. #211

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris View Post
    There is another intersting idea taken from well known spanish progresion:
    gm F/ Eb D.... can be Gmaj7 Fm/Ebmaj7D7
    Very creative thinking...
    Yeah that’s what I mean by Chaconne. But it’s the same thing as the Andalusian cadence to use a fancy name. Or the descending tetrachord often seen in Baroque music.

    Also ‘Hit the Road Jack’

    Its very cool

    Giant steps/26-2 etc extends the bassline into a full whole tone scale

  13. #212

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post

    BTW that backing track is a bit much. Is it an Aebersold?
    I don't know who made it, but it's one of the only ones that sounds ok on YouTube.

    I took my solo over what would be the melody, because yeah, once you get to the solo section on this track, Mr. piano player is getting LOUD. But i dunno, i kinda like that.

  14. #213

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    it's also the first half of "here's that rainy day" which shows you how far out those wayne shorter changes are...
    True! I knew I’d missed something obvious.

    It’s also a common turnaround. Gershwin uses it in Bess You are my Woman Now IIRC

  15. #214

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    I don't know who made it, but it's one of the only ones that sounds ok on YouTube.

    I took my solo over what would be the melody, because yeah, once you get to the solo section on this track, Mr. piano player is getting LOUD. But i dunno, i kinda like that.
    Its good practice to play with a piano player who feels compelled to play ALL THE NOTES. Plenty of those at jams.

    TBF it’s hard to accompany a solo that isn’t there, even the for best in the business. If I was cutting a backing track record I’d get them to accompany a pre recorded solo on cans and cut it out

  16. #215

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    The other thing that perhaps changes things is how low in the ‘mix’ the piano is compared to the horns on those Blue Note albums*, so the pianists can really crash around and it sounds great. In fact they kind of need to... I find it tough with this backing track though.

    *yes I’m aware it was basically one mic, live in the room, but you know what I mean, acoustic piano some way from the mic.

  17. #216

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    grahambop: excellent!

  18. #217

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Wayne uses the pentatonic, so *shrug*

    I don’t see why you have to learn Giant Steps first. Learn ND first, and then complete the giant steps cycle later.

    put a modified version of the ND progression in G/Eb and Eb/B and you’ve broken the back of Giant Steps.

    D7 G Bb7 Eb
    Bb7 Eb F#7 B

    everything else is easy (2 5 1s) after that
    most important GS in 4/4 and ND is in 3/4.

  19. #218

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Sounds great! And proof you can make this work with a "traditional" jazz tone-- as long as your feel is right (and yours definitely is)
    Thanks Jeff. I kept thinking about how Wayne plays those wailing notes, plus the backing track is quite forceful (I do not mind that, it’s like playing with McCoy Tyner bashing away next to you!), all that just made me feel like digging in harder. I also added a touch of overdrive with a plugin, but it’s probably too subtle to notice.

  20. #219

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    The first 4 chords is a kind of turnaround.
    Gmaj7 Bb7/Ebmaj7 D7

    turnaround Gmaj7 Bb7/Ebmaj7 Abmaj or Gmaj7 Bb7/Ebmaj7 Ab7

    Blues scale/pentatonicks works nice over turnaronds .Look a 2 last bars of every blues tune.

  21. #220

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Seeing all this controversy, I thought I'd better have a go! I just simplify this tune to 4 chords: G(m), Ab7, Bm, Cm. Actually the hardest bit was playing the melody, trying to get the rhythms correct on that middle bit.

    Okay so now you have me wanting to learn the melody. It makes sense and sounds great the way you play it! That was a really helpful solo in focusing on the 4 chord centers you noted.

    So... I'm really glad I worked on this tune after all. Vindicating the principle of trusting the judgement of my musical peers and tackling something I'm not initially attracted to.

    Your clip here cements that!

  22. #221

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Well there you go

    Note that Wayne has Bb on the G chord in the melody as well. So that’s how he heard it. And then there’s the solo.

    but I’m sure theorists know how to play his music better than he does. The chord scale police would have arrested Wayne long ago.

    BTW that backing track is a bit much. Is it an Aebersold?
    It's the backing track that Hal Leonard did to go with their updated Real Book series. Usually their tracks are based, sometimes loosely, on real performances. So "All of Me" is a direct clone of the Count Basie track on the Sinatra album.

  23. #222

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Well there you go

    Note that Wayne has Bb on the G chord in the melody as well. So that’s how he heard it. And then there’s the solo.

    but I’m sure theorists know how to play his music better than he does. The chord scale police would have arrested Wayne long ago.

    BTW that backing track is a bit much. Is it an Aebersold?
    The backing is about the only decent one on youtube, it’s from a channel called ‘M2’, I think someone said they make the Hal Crook tracks too. I don’t mind the loud piano, probably made me play with more oomph!

    All this made me go and listen to more Wayne stuff and I noticed how much he returns to pieces of the melody in a lot of his solos, a good approach to take.

    (edit: I see Lawson said it was a Hal Leonard track.)

  24. #223

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    Very intersting version of Bobby Watson ...29th Street Saxophone Quartet:

  25. #224

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    Okay so now you have me wanting to learn the melody. It makes sense and sounds great the way you play it! That was a really helpful solo in focusing on the 4 chord centers you noted.

    So... I'm really glad I worked on this tune after all. Vindicating the principle of trusting the judgement of my musical peers and tackling something I'm not initially attracted to.

    Your clip here cements that!
    Thanks Lawson. Actually I didn’t really like this tune much at first, I wasn’t going to play it, but all the discussion made me tackle the challenge, and I grew to like it more. But I did feel I had to play the melody because it creates a mood and helped me get into the solo.

    By the way I thought your solo was very good, nothing wrong with it at all!

  26. #225

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO View Post
    grahambop: excellent!
    Thankyou!

  27. #226

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    TBF it’s hard to accompany a solo that isn’t there, even the for best in the business. If I was cutting a backing track record I’d get them to accompany a pre recorded solo on cans and cut it out
    I think I read somewhere that this is how they made at least some of the Aebersold tracks, i.e. Jamie A. played the melody and a solo, which was then taken out. In fact I think I heard one once where you could hear a bit of his sax bleeding through.

  28. #227

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    Okay so now you have me wanting to learn the melody.
    I think if you do learn it, you'll like the tune even more. I think its very memorable.

    And as Graham pointed out, melody is absolutely key in improvising on Shorter tunes.

  29. #228

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    I think I read somewhere that this is how they made at least some of the Aebersold tracks, i.e. Jamie A. played the melody and a solo, which was then taken out. In fact I think I heard one once where you could hear a bit of his sax bleeding through.
    that makes sense, some Aebersolds are definitely better than others. I’d still take them over robo-jazz backing any day

  30. #229

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    The backing is about the only decent one on youtube, it’s from a channel called ‘M2’, I think someone said they make the Hal Crook tracks too. I don’t mind the loud piano, probably made me play with more oomph!

    All this made me go and listen to more Wayne stuff and I noticed how much he returns to pieces of the melody in a lot of his solos, a good approach to take.

    (edit: I see Lawson said it was a Hal Leonard track.)
    Right, thanks! Wayne chord progressions are like cryptic puzzles with the clues given by the melody.

    But Wayne so frequently paraphrases the melody in his solo it’s an object lesson... guitarists tend to go from the chords of course because that’s what we learn first!

  31. #230

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    that makes sense, some Aebersolds are definitely better than others. I’d still take them over robo-jazz backing any day
    haha
    I love robo-jazz backing from BB/real tracks/ though I have almost all Aebersolds playalongs.
    BB is a fantastic tool-you can organize jazz backgrounds in a very creative way.

  32. #231

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Thanks Lawson. Actually I didn’t really like this tune much at first, I wasn’t going to play it, but all the discussion made me tackle the challenge, and I grew to like it more. But I did feel I had to play the melody because it creates a mood and helped me get into the solo.

    By the way I thought your solo was very good, nothing wrong with it at all!
    You just made my day! Thank you. And you have given me the melody, which I want to learn now.

  33. #232

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    I think I read somewhere that this is how they made at least some of the Aebersold tracks, i.e. Jamie A. played the melody and a solo, which was then taken out. In fact I think I heard one once where you could hear a bit of his sax bleeding through.
    That's true. I have met him, since he lives just 60 miles from my home. He performed once here in Lexington, Ky. and I went to hear him and spoke to him a bit about the backing tracks, which at that time were a life-saver (pre-Band-in-a-box!) and my only recourse for realistic practice. He told me that the key is to have a soloist playing the tune and improvising, and that typically he did that for the recordings, though sometimes they might have someone else do it.

    My only complaint with the Aebersold tracks is that sometimes the piano really plays very close to the melody, and if you are trying to play the tune, you bump in the piano a lot... which maybe is realistic after all...

  34. #233

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    I am happy that LS start to love music of W.Shorter.
    Best
    Kris

  35. #234

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    About Aebersolds playalongs-sometimes I cut piano and play with bass and drums.
    It is very easy because of stereo separation.
    why?
    If you practise chord melody style the piano clashes with the guitar chords.

  36. #235

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    Some of the Aebersolds speed up quite a bit as they go, but maybe that’s good practice for real-world situations!

  37. #236

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Some of the Aebersolds speed up quite a bit as they go, but maybe that’s good practice for real-world situations!
    It's true, but maybe it's some kind of motivation to work on yourself.
    Nice take over ND.
    Best
    kris

  38. #237

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Some of the Aebersolds speed up quite a bit as they go, but maybe that’s good practice for real-world situations!
    ROFL

    yes they do. You know what they say though; better to speed up than slow down.

  39. #238

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris View Post
    most important GS in 4/4 and ND is in 3/4.
    Except when they are both in 5 of course #jazznerdsinternational

  40. #239

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Some of the Aebersolds speed up quite a bit as they go, but maybe that’s good practice for real-world situations!
    wayne's night dreamer speeds up considerably.

  41. #240

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    wayne's night dreamer speeds up considerably.
    Can’t play the right chord scales and the rhythm section speeds up? Bloody rubbish! Who are these amateurs?
    Last edited by christianm77; 02-25-2021 at 05:52 PM.

  42. #241

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    ROFL

    yes they do. You know what they say though; better to speed up than slow down.
    Check out Milestones, the tempo is noticeably slower by the end.

  43. #242

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Check out Milestones, the tempo is noticeably slower by the end.
    It’s almost like people aren’t machines or something

  44. #243

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    It’s almost like people aren’t machines or something
    It's true, humans are not machines, but humans operate machines, and they're slowly becoming robots. Look at computers.

  45. #244

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Check out Milestones, the tempo is noticeably slower by the end.
    erroll garner build a whole career slowing down.

  46. #245

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    erroll garner build a whole career slowing down.
    Are you talking about tempo or feel?

  47. #246

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    Are you talking about tempo or feel?
    tempo.

  48. #247

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris View Post
    It's true, humans are not machines, but humans operate machines, and they're slowly becoming robots. Look at computers.
    yes. But I actually think the DAW generation is slowly waking up to the fact that human time is a valuable thing of itself, so these things go in cycles.

  49. #248

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    As we're waiting for other tunes, I thought, now the pressure's off, I'd revisit this one. Not hard this time. In fact, quite nice :-)


  50. #249

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    Very nice, ragman!

  51. #250

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    Blues sounds. Bound to be popular :-)