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  1. #151

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    OK Wayne might not be everyone's cup of tea even among jazz lovers (I mean to me he's pretty mainstream, but hey), but you know, you might learn something. Some people seem to go out of their way to avoid going out of their comfort zone, and I think Jeff's calls are great for just pushing it enough.

    Avoiding going out of your comfort zone is an absolutely fantastic way to never learn anything, and some of those who are moaning might reflect that they have maybe learned something by trying something they wouldn't normally attempt. I dunno.

    Speaking for myself I would not have spent this week learning this tune and listening to the record if it hadn't come up. I also made quite a few mistakes in my recording which is why I took it down.

    But it was a great learning process to go through, and I'm glad there's an environment like this one where it's OK to post a slightly crappy version of the song.

    Nica's Dream is a probably a good shout. For me, it's a tune I already know to jam session level, but it's actually a much more detailed song than that, harder to learn properly than Night Dreamer. So, I'm not sure if I'll post a recording myself, but it may be a good idea for everyone else.

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  3. #152

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    That sort of makes you a No. 2

  4. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    That sort of makes you a No. 2
    in this instance maybe.

    I’m a member of a few online groups like this and I flit in and out. It’s a priority I’ve set myself to learn lots of new tunes, but if I want to learn the shout chorus, intro some of the solos and do a deep dive into Nica’s dream it might be nice to do so.

  5. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    You left out: or you play it!
    I said play it 2x.

    John

  6. #155

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    Something about this discussion has just crushed my motivation to pursue this project. Not trying to "storm off" I think I need to just back away from this whole thing for a while and figure out what has me finding this suddenly depressing.

    I only play music for fun. I'm not a "pro" and "if it's called at a jam session" and I can't play it, fine. Nothing in my life depends on being the jam session star. But I won't play songs I think are ugly and unsatisfying. There are plenty of things outside my comfort zone that are challenging and yet still beautiful and satisfying to master. But a tune that is the very image of the cartoon of jazz as ugly and confusing, is not a tune I'm going to play.

    Since I don't feel like I fit in here, I'm going to back away and ponder for a while.

  7. #156

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    Lawson-stone,

    But the reality is you DO fit in on this thread.

    Why?

    Because you do what we should all follow...

    You actually PLAY and then you POST your playing. That's guts. Especially to an internet crowd--many of whom never met in person.

    Most of us, myself included, tend to exercise our typing chops more than our jazz guitar chops on the forum.

    So I say, PLEASE STAY. (smile in your solidarity, I am insecure about my playing as well)

  8. #157

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    It'd be a bit of a jagoff tune to call if you didn't know the musicians/whether or not they could play it, really.
    It could be that, but might not be.

    John

  9. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Something about this discussion has just crushed my motivation to pursue this project. Not trying to "storm off" I think I need to just back away from this whole thing for a while and figure out what has me finding this suddenly depressing.

    I only play music for fun. I'm not a "pro" and "if it's called at a jam session" and I can't play it, fine. Nothing in my life depends on being the jam session star. But I won't play songs I think are ugly and unsatisfying. There are plenty of things outside my comfort zone that are challenging and yet still beautiful and satisfying to master. But a tune that is the very image of the cartoon of jazz as ugly and confusing, is not a tune I'm going to play.

    Since I don't feel like I fit in here, I'm going to back away and ponder for a while.
    Lawson, it seems to me you've gotten some value out of most of these "jam" tunes so far. I've certainly noticed some real improvements in how you improvise over a pretty short span of time. That's as clear an indicator of "belonging" as any I can think of. I'm definitely not a pro and I bump against tunes I don't really get all the time. Sometimes I persist, and sometimes I don't. Nothing wrong with picking your spots. But I hesitate to call something "ugly and consfusing" when people who's musicianship and opinions I respect find it the opposite to that.

    John

  10. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    OK, so you go to a jam session, and somebody calls "Night Dreamer" or some other not-obvious-how-to-play-it and/or outside(ish) tune. First, let's understand that this is a real-world phenomenon that happens. What do you do? Here are some options

    1. Complain about the tune, express disbelief that anyone actually likes it or can play, and try to prevent anyone else from playing it
    2. Say it's not your kind of tune, sit out, and say you'll play the next one
    3. Brazenly claim you know, and then proceed to spew seafood.
    4. Say that you don't know it, and it's unfamiliar ground to you, but will give it a shot
    5. Go to a different jam.

    Let's just say all have their plusses and minuses. I've seen all in action, to varying effects Number 4 is my go-to, but I'll sometimes go with 2. The problem with 2 is you may not get up again and/or people will keep calling tunes you hate.

    John
    The little free time I've had available over the last 15-20 years has been dedicated to working on my own stuff and I wasn't listening to a lot of jazz prior to that time. Consquently, I'm definitely nº 4, always ready to jump in. Reactions over the years have been let's say "diverse" from go home fusion boy to wow I wasn't expecting that; rarely indifferent. Anyway, I never saw the sense in trying to sound like someone else.

  11. #160

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Something about this discussion has just crushed my motivation to pursue this project. Not trying to "storm off" I think I need to just back away from this whole thing for a while and figure out what has me finding this suddenly depressing.

    I only play music for fun. I'm not a "pro" and "if it's called at a jam session" and I can't play it, fine. Nothing in my life depends on being the jam session star. But I won't play songs I think are ugly and unsatisfying. There are plenty of things outside my comfort zone that are challenging and yet still beautiful and satisfying to master. But a tune that is the very image of the cartoon of jazz as ugly and confusing, is not a tune I'm going to play.

    Since I don't feel like I fit in here, I'm going to back away and ponder for a while.
    Nope, you're not allowed to leave. Start shedding Nica

    We all dig different things. This process has been good for me too--im finding out my tastes aren't definitive.

    And yeah, I should have known that already, but hey...

  12. #161

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    And also, its always been my intention to--once we were up and running-- to let other folks call tunes. So maybe its getting close to time for that too.

  13. #162

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    I don’t think there’s any particular compulsion or not to participate.

    I admire Lawson’s participation in pretty much all the playing on the forum. I also think it’s demonstrably done a great deal for your playing, Lawson, and while the value of playing music you don’t like might seem dubious it’s still great that you did it.

    You did in fact go outside of your comfort zone.

    When Jeff calls something I hate now I will be honour bound to play it. I’ll have a think about the songs I don’t like.... Little Sunflower or something. Or Bye Bye Blackbird. Song for my Father (it’s a great record, I cannot play it.)

  14. #163

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    I definitely never thought the same folks needed to participate every week. Come and go as you please.

    I'm playing every week because I started the damn thing, and I haven't played with humans in 13 months, so I better.

  15. #164

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    Perhaps Night Dreamer is a type of tune that hard to dig if you dont have a rock side in you. I mean, to me you have to like rock music to see the textural opportunity it offers. Straight ahead jazz approach does create cognitive dissonance lol. If I had to play it on archtop with clean tone or something I would not enjoy playing it at all. Jazz rock fusion is a thing though, worth look into.

    Textural approach is great btw. I recently was hungry for some Vernon Reid style soloing. Speed can be a texture. Some call it umusical and garbage, but I think I prefer that to virtuoso display in classical tradition. And of course no one cancel the distortion sound yet, or any other guitar effects. It's all fun. Plus I'm stuck with a tele, no archtops around.

  16. #165

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    Okay, Lawson... quit sulking, it's just one tune. Like someone said, you did more than fine on the last one.

    It's a different kind of music is all. It's not like it's

    GM7 Em Am D7

    Or even

    GM7 E7 A7 D7

    Well, actually it is if you tritone it a bit

    GM7 Bb7 Eb7 D7

    Well, okay, change that middle chord there

    GM7 Bb7 EbM7 D7

    Then do the frigging thing in 3/4 waltz time just to mess with people's sanity...

    It's maybe a bit late now but what you've got here is disparate bits of sound. The G bit... the Ebm7/Ab7 bit... the E7 and F7 bit... and the G bit again. Just play something over them, it doesn't matter.

    Don't try to approach it like a standard tune, beginning, middle and ending. Realise from the start it's not going to be like that. It'll still be bloody irritating but it'll ease the pain

    OR

    you say 'not my kind of music' and forget it. Do something else. Personally I don't let it beat me but I'm tenacious that way.

  17. #166

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Okay, Lawson... quit sulking, it's just one tune. Like someone said, you did more than fine on the last one.

    It's a different kind of music is all. It's not like it's

    GM7 Em Am D7

    Or even

    GM7 E7 A7 D7

    Well, actually it is if you tritone it a bit

    GM7 Bb7 Eb7 D7

    Well, okay, change that middle chord there

    GM7 Bb7 EbM7 D7

    Then do the frigging thing in 3/4 waltz time just to mess with people's sanity...

    It's maybe a bit late now but what you've got here is disparate bits of sound. The G bit... the Ebm7/Ab7 bit... the E7 and F7 bit... and the G bit again. Just play something over them, it doesn't matter.

    Don't try to approach it like a standard tune, beginning, middle and ending. Realise from the start it's not going to be like that. It'll still be bloody irritating but it'll ease the pain

    OR

    you say 'not my kind of music' and forget it. Do something else. Personally I don't let it beat me but I'm tenacious that way.
    I wish I had a canoe oar to stir all that with...

    Not sulking, just reconsidering the nature of my associations.

  18. #167

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    By the way, I haven't changed my mind from what I said before. Wayne is definitely on intravenous magic fairy dust and to the average musical practitioner his stuff is incohesive, frustrating, and all the rest of it.

    But it is what it is and he's got an embarrassing raft of awards to prove it.

    Wayne Shorter - Wikipedia

  19. #168

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    retaining the nature of my associations
    Ah, there you are. Excellent. Good whatever-it-is near you :-)

  20. #169

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I haven't played with humans in 13 months
    I'm not human. Any more.

  21. #170

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    Rag, you act like Wayne is friggin' Peter Brotzman.

    Maybe we'll have to do this one in the future...one of the most beautiful jazz tunes ever.


  22. #171

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    This sort of pretentious, indulgent crap?*



    At least Wayne can write a tune.

    I was listening to Infant Eyes the other day. I got the lead sheet out. Strange thing. I did it too.



    You know, I had an insight into ND before it happened. I not only felt the next tune was going to be a waltz but I was going to write 'a blue waltz' in the post. Strange thing.

    *I'm not allowed to say that.

  23. #172

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    This whole discussion is embarrassing, but it's a shame.
    You sit at home, you can use the Internet. Nobody knows if you have a Real Book or other books in front of you. These are comfortable conditions for a virtual jam. There are no such venues in the real jam.Play next tune!

  24. #173

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Perhaps Night Dreamer is a type of tune that hard to dig if you dont have a rock side in you. I mean, to me you have to like rock music to see the textural opportunity it offers. Straight ahead jazz approach does create cognitive dissonance lol. If I had to play it on archtop with clean tone or something I would not enjoy playing it at all. Jazz rock fusion is a thing though, worth look into.

    Textural approach is great btw. I recently was hungry for some Vernon Reid style soloing. Speed can be a texture. Some call it umusical and garbage, but I think I prefer that to virtuoso display in classical tradition. And of course no one cancel the distortion sound yet, or any other guitar effects. It's all fun. Plus I'm stuck with a tele, no archtops around.
    with the Tenor sax and the big tone you can get with one there are ideas like the ones Wayne is playing that simply don’t work with a clean archtop. Something about the instrument forces you to be more harmonic and changes oriented. And more laid back as well I find. Which is fine for a certain type of gig and band.

    If you need a ‘weight of sound’; distorted electric can give you that. And some ambience on the tone. (Chorus too actually although everyone hates that now haha.)

    That’s how I tend to use it in jazz. I tend to avoid bending and vibrato etc though (unless I really am ‘rocking out’ lol). I’m aiming more for a sax like sound.

    Tele can sound a bit thin though. My ES175 sounds immense through a tube screamer

  25. #174

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    By the way, I haven't changed my mind from what I said before. Wayne is definitely on intravenous magic fairy dust and to the average musical practitioner his stuff is incohesive, frustrating, and all the rest of it.

    But it is what it is and he's got an embarrassing raft of awards to prove it.

    Wayne Shorter - Wikipedia
    This stuff is above my paygrade but I've just listened to Herbie Hancock read his autobiography (audible freebie).

    Miles' comment at one session was along the lines of 'mofo - I swear you write this shit just to piss me off'

  26. #175

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Rag, you act like Wayne is friggin' Peter Brotzman.

    Maybe we'll have to do this one in the future...one of the most beautiful jazz tunes ever.

    That's a wonderful tune. Just this morning when I was jogging I heard this played by, I think, Steve Kahn. I'd enjoy learning this one.

  27. #176

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    with the Tenor sax and the big tone you can get with one there are ideas like the ones Wayne is playing that simply don’t work with a clean archtop. Something about the instrument forces you to be more harmonic and changes oriented. And more laid back as well I find. Which is fine for a certain type of gig and band.

    If you need a ‘weight of sound’; distorted electric can give you that. And some ambience on the tone. (Chorus too actually although everyone hates that now haha.)

    That’s how I tend to use it in jazz. I tend to avoid bending and vibrato etc though (unless I really am ‘rocking out’ lol). I’m aiming more for a sax like sound.

    Tele can sound a bit thin though. My ES175 sounds immense through a tube screamer
    Tele can be ok, with the right speaker. I recorded through the laptop speaker, everything would sound thin lol

    I think I already told the story, I heard one of my student practicing in far room with distortion, he didnt master the vibrato yet, and I thought the guitar sounded just like a sax from distance. It was a revelation.

    But I do love vibrato though. Django, Sco, Mike Stern, Bill Frisell all use it, I have no shame either. Besides it's probably the best thing I do on guitar anyway. Can't catch them with my bebop lines yet.

  28. #177

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    with the Tenor sax and the big tone you can get with one there are ideas like the ones Wayne is playing that simply don’t work with a clean archtop. Something about the instrument forces you to be more harmonic and changes oriented. And more laid back as well I find. Which is fine for a certain type of gig and band.

    If you need a ‘weight of sound’; distorted electric can give you that. And some ambience on the tone. (Chorus too actually although everyone hates that now haha.)

    That’s how I tend to use it in jazz. I tend to avoid bending and vibrato etc though (unless I really am ‘rocking out’ lol). I’m aiming more for a sax like sound.

    Tele can sound a bit thin though. My ES175 sounds immense through a tube screamer
    grant green had it all figured out 60 years ago. he would have had no problem fitting in and more than holding his own on night dreamer. same with sonny greenwich.

  29. #178

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    grant green had it all figured out 60 years ago. he would have had no problem fitting in and more than holding his own on night dreamer. same with sonny greenwich.
    Actually when you said that, I could hear him playing it right away. Cranked tweed amp or whatever it was he was using back then.

  30. #179

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    Grant was without a doubt one of the first guitar players to fare well in "modal" and "modern" situations.

    Wish there were more dates like Morgan's "Search for the New Land."

  31. #180

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    Quote Originally Posted by dot75
    This stuff is above my paygrade but I've just listened to Herbie Hancock read his autobiography (audible freebie).

    Miles' comment at one session was along the lines of 'mofo - I swear you write this shit just to piss me off'
    In fact, that's not a bad test... if you're not p--- off trying to do it you're probably... (you fill it in :-))

  32. #181

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Actually when you said that, I could hear him playing it right away. Cranked tweed amp or whatever it was he was using back then.
    Ampeg combo is what I have read (Rocket or similar model)...



  33. #182

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    I don't know if anyone's interested in this any more, but...

    Here's a short thing. After the (rather badly played) tune there are two entirely diatonic solos that just outline the chords as read:

    G maj/EbM7 (Eb maj) x3
    Ebm7/Ab7
    E7 - F7
    G maj/Eb maj x2

    But the 3rd solo uses the subs we've so far worked out:

    G/Gm (Bb maj lydian) x3
    Bbm
    F#m/Gm
    G/Gm x2

    The question is how much difference does it really make to the ear? And I'd say not a lot, although the subs do make it a little more tuneful perhaps.

    Of course, if we hadn't struggled with it we wouldn't have known. But that's the downside and the benefit of the 'creative process'... painful but worth it.


  34. #183

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    Ampeg combo is what I have read (Rocket or similar model)...



    Wow, I have that amp! A 1960 Ampeg Mercury. Although it could also be a Rocket as noted. But I believe the Rockets came later and this is the 1961 sessions. I've been listening to alot of Grant Green lately. "Solid" and Larry Young's "Into Something" and "Talking about JC".

  35. #184

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    As I said before, I love Grant Green's playing.

    And Search for New Land is one of my favorite Lee Morgan albums.

    Grant Green was on everything! I LOVE his stuff with organ. From Baby Face Willette to Larry Young. His stuff with Big John Patton is EXTRA funky. And live at the Lighthouse, that's fonky (apparently that's when the funk goes into overdrive and you board a UFO with Bootsy and crew...)

    Grant Green gets it. Feel. Pocket. Like a horn without trying to play a million notes a minute. The art of the phrase. The art of musical punctuation. The art of letting the space speak as much as the notes you pluck outta yer guitar. That said, Grant Green had chops for days. A DEEP mudda if I ever did... shut your mouth. Hey, I was only talking 'bout Grant Green






  36. #185

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Grant was without a doubt one of the first guitar players to fare well in "modal" and "modern" situations.

    Wish there were more dates like Morgan's "Search for the New Land."


  37. #186

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    I don't think anybody got closer to Tranes concept on guitar than Sonny.

    Maybe Tisziji Munoz...but its close.

  38. #187

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    Jeff, I agree with Sonny Greenwich and Tisziji Munoz and the Coltrane link. There was some mention of archtop and overdrive earlier. I read this new book last summer: Of Stars and Strings: A Biography of Sonny Greenwich by Mark Miller - Jazz da Gama There's a link between both players that I was not aware of...

    Ron
    Last edited by Ronstuff; 02-24-2021 at 09:09 PM.

  39. #188

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I don't think anybody got closer to Tranes concept on guitar than Sonny.
    sonny sharrock that is!



    cheers

  40. #189

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    I really can't shake the idea that if I'm in this group I need to do the tune. But as you know, I'm not totally comfortable, to say the least, with this. So here are two choruses but I really don't get this tune.

    Maybe what I need to get REALLY angry at the tune, then play it as a kind of assault on it. Anger and hard-bop seem somehow to fit together.


  41. #190

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    I dunno, but for someone who thought they didn't "fit it" to this thread...

    That was a pretty tasty solo. NICE feel. Some phrases sat in the back of the pocket, and some were more forward. Sounded organic.

    And you made your short notes short and long notes long. Sounds corny, but just paying attention to note length can do wonders for your playing. Helped me sound better and more intentional than in years past

    Great stuff, Lawson-stone. Stay around a little longer. We just lit the camp fire and the marshmallows are out:

    (no, that's not my photo... but I wish it was )


  42. #191

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    I really can't shake the idea that if I'm in this group I need to do the tune. But as you know, I'm not totally comfortable, to say the least, with this. So here are two choruses but I really don't get this tune.

    Maybe what I need to get REALLY angry at the tune, then play it as a kind of assault on it. Anger and hard-bop seem somehow to fit together.

    I don't feel like I get the harmony of this tune either.

    But, that didn't stop you from playing some nice ideas over it.

  43. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    I really can't shake the idea that if I'm in this group I need to do the tune. But as you know, I'm not totally comfortable, to say the least, with this. So here are two choruses but I really don't get this tune.

    Maybe what I need to get REALLY angry at the tune, then play it as a kind of assault on it. Anger and hard-bop seem somehow to fit together.

    Lawson, I wish I was on your level. I'm at the stage where just playing the head to these times is a struggle.

  44. #193

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    I really can't shake the idea that if I'm in this group I need to do the tune. But as you know, I'm not totally comfortable, to say the least, with this. So here are two choruses but I really don't get this tune.

    Maybe what I need to get REALLY angry at the tune, then play it as a kind of assault on it. Anger and hard-bop seem somehow to fit together.

    Well you sure don't sound angry, just laid back and in pocket. I guarantee you this is even better than you think it sounds.

    Great capper to Night Dreamer week.

    Hope everyone is ready for this functional tune y'all think is easier

  45. #194

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    Quote Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
    I dunno, but for someone who thought they didn't "fit it" to this thread...

    That was a pretty tasty solo. NICE feel. Some phrases sat in the back of the pocket, and some were more forward. Sounded organic.

    And you made your short notes short and long notes long. Sounds corny, but just paying attention to note length can do wonders for your playing. Helped me sound better and more intentional than in years past

    Great stuff, Lawson-stone. Stay around a little longer. We just lit the camp fire and the marshmallows are out:

    (no, that's not my photo... but I wish it was )

    Thank you for the kind words. Sometimes efforts we think are "throw-away" are actually not as bad as we feared... not as good as we'd hope either...

  46. #195

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I don't feel like I get the harmony of this tune either.

    But, that didn't stop you from playing some nice ideas over it.
    Well I did cheat a little... left out the dominants in the A section, just played over GM7 and EbM7. Tried to shoe-horn some bop licks in there, but I think some of the interesting stuff in the bass notes in the next section I just missed.

  47. #196

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieparker
    Lawson, I wish I was on your level. I'm at the stage where just playing the head to these times is a struggle.
    HA! I never learned the head to ND. I tried it, and tried it, and just didn't hear a melody there. Listened to the recordings, and just didn't enjoy the melody. Most tunes when I learn them I think "Yeah I"m glad I learned how to play that." But I'm at least glad I didn't give up.

  48. #197

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Well you sure don't sound angry, just laid back and in pocket. I guarantee you this is even better than you think it sounds.

    Great capper to Night Dreamer week.

    Hope everyone is ready for this functional tune y'all think is easier
    Thanks for that reassurance. I think I"m so enamored with the great ones, I am more aware of how far short of them I come rather than just listening to what I"m playing.

    Time to start whining about Nica's Dream now. I'm seeing the overall form of that one is really... involved?

  49. #198

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    I don't feel like I get the harmony of this tune either
    It hasn't really got a harmony, that's the point, it's just one sound block after the other. We're so used to looking for tonal centres and cohesion that this throws us. Just divide the bars up, play something over them, and away you go.

    G - Gm - G - Gm
    G - Gm - Bbm - %
    F#m - % - Gm - %
    G - Gm - G - Gm

    Or if you like -

    G - Gm x3
    Bbm x2
    F#m x2
    Gm x2
    G - Gm x2



    See, easy. After that, shift positions, do some hip phrasing, you'll be unstoppable.

    You'll never be thrown by a modal tune again :-)

    Do it quick, it's Thursday!

  50. #199

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    Lawson -

    involved?
    I've had a quick look at Nica's Dream. There's an intro, probably optional. Then the head, two sections. Then there's a little extra section before it all starts again. But nothing that complex.

    It might get tricky if one wants to change from Latin to swing in the B section. But a lot of versions don't so that's probably optional too.

    Standards PDF Viewer - Learn Jazz Standards - The Ultimate Jazz Resource

    Slowly does it, probably.

  51. #200

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