The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
  1. #1

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    My understanding of modal playing is that the underlying harmony dictates whether one is actually able to play modally. For example, we could play in D Dorian over 8 measures of Dm7. This would be modal playing because the chord lasts a long time, there is no functioning dominant, and if the next chord either modulates or is 'lateral' i.e. CMaj7 or Em7, this further reinforces "modal."

    However, I see guitarists all the time saying "D Dorian" when the Dm7 chord is short (e.g. half a bar) or there is a functioning dominant chord. For example, if we have a ii V I in C Major, the player says they are playing D Dorian over the ii (Dm7). But aren't they just playing C Major? There's not even enough time to establish a modal sound and more importantly, the V chord resolves to the I. Aren't they really just playing the major scale?
    I understand the notes are the same. But modes have a sound and for that sound to come out requires a) enough time and b) harmony that establishes the modes tonic, not a parent key.

    Are these assumptions correct? Anything to add? I feel like I'm missing something or confused by the sheer amount of online content about modes that seems like it's applied to functional harmony. Sooooo much conflicting or ambiguous info! Somebody posted on Reddit with a similar post a while back.

    And how about these backing tracks for playing in the Dorian mode... isn't a ii V a less than ideal choice because the I is implied? Or is this OK because the dominant isn't actually functional?
    youtube.com/watch?v=rQdEfvenheQ - Am D7
    youtube.com/watch?v=OfvCw3IcbSs - Dm G7
    youtube.com/watch?v=tYUi9AMaFUo - Gm7 C7

    Thank you in advance! Long-time lurker and I appreciate all of the insight everyone contributes to this forum.

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  3. #2

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    There are modes and there are chord-scales. Dorian is both a mode and a chord-scale. They are very different things.

    Playing Dorian over a ii-V or over the tonic chord of say minor blues is a chord-scale application.

    So What is a tune in Dorian. Here the modality is Dorian. This doesn't even necessitate using the Dorian chord-scale. You can use Dorian or pentatonic or whatever. It's talking about the tonal quality (or modal quality) of the tune.

    The first case is implying a tonality/modality, the second case it's implying a chord centric view of a collection of notes. In other words a linear view of the primary chord tones and available tensions of a minor chord.

  4. #3

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    I see that your post has a second part.

    Suppose you got 4 bars to play over, ii V I I. In the key of C that is, Dmin7 G7 CMaj7 CMaj7. So you may see people suggest playing D Dorian, G Mixolydian and C Ionian over these changes. But aren't all these just the same as the C major scale?

    You can play C major scale over these 4 bars. That is you can create a 4 bar melody/phrase thinking the 7 notes of the C Major scale and know that your line is gonna sound good over these changes. You can create great lines this way. This is called key center playing.

    An alternative is playing the changes, ie chord centric playing. Now even though you're still using the same 7 notes, when you are over Dmin7, 4 of these 7 notes acquire a special status. They are the chord tones, D, F, A, C. The other three notes become color notes. This is how we hear the notes against any chord. When you get to the next chord, different notes of the same scale light up as the chord tones. So playing phrases that result from tuning into this ever changing function of the notes over different chords is called playing the changes.

    In key center playing, you're bringing out a melodic idea over a group of generally consonant chords, when playing the changes, you're bringing out the underlying harmony in your lines.

    It's really hard to just think 7 notes of the major scale over a whole bunch of chords and bring out how the harmony changes. That's where Dorian, Mixolydian etc come from. It just means you are shifting the meaning of the notes bar after bar so you're aligning them with the chords.

    PS. Now the next question usually is, but how do you "think" like that when you're performing. You "think" like that when you're learning to play the changes during the countless practice hours. When performing, they are either already second nature and not present.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 02-05-2021 at 07:06 AM.

  5. #4

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    In So What, the Dm (played as Dm7 or Dm13 or maybe Dm11) feels like it's a resolution. It's not leading you somewhere else -- it's the "somewhere else" other chords lead you to.

    In Dm7 G7 Cmaj7, the resolution is Cmaj7. The G7 leads to the Cmaj7. The Dm7 leads nice to the G7.

    In each case, there's a Dm7 with exactly the same notes. But, the context is different. In the first case it's the target and in the second case it's the arrow.

    When you construct lines in the practice room, you may find it works well to consider which notes you're placing on the strong beats of the measure. At first, the student may work on placing the chord tones on the strong beats. So, in the ii V I you can consider that the whole thing is in Cmajor (all white keys), but emphasize the chord tones of each of the three chords on the strong beats. But, you'll get past that device pretty quickly. You'll find that in the modal case, your lines are heading towards the target of D, whereas in the ii V I case you're heading towards C.

    You have to be able to hear that. Practicing playing against a modal D minor by using a backing track of a droning D note can help hear it.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzgtr
    My understanding of modal playing is that the underlying harmony dictates whether one is actually able to play modally. For example, we could play in D Dorian over 8 measures of Dm7. This would be modal playing because the chord lasts a long time, there is no functioning dominant, and if the next chord either modulates or is 'lateral' i.e. CMaj7 or Em7, this further reinforces "modal."
    What about a blues that starts on the one and goes eight bars before changing to the four or five (or flat six) etc.? Will you think it's modal until the first change?
    Maybe just because a chord harmony goes for a bit is not sufficient to think it is modal.

    Quote Originally Posted by jzgtr
    However, I see guitarists all the time saying "D Dorian" when the Dm7 chord is short (e.g. half a bar) or there is a functioning dominant chord. For example, if we have a ii V I in C Major, the player says they are playing D Dorian over the ii (Dm7). But aren't they just playing C Major? There's not even enough time to establish a modal sound and more importantly, the V chord resolves to the I. Aren't they really just playing the major scale?
    I understand the notes are the same. But modes have a sound and for that sound to come out requires a) enough time and b) harmony that establishes the modes tonic, not a parent key.
    Just playing in C major? No, if they call it D Dorian they are playing it with respect to D being the tonic of the sound. If they start, stop, or hang on C they are playing that C as the flat seven sound of D Dorian. The time to establish a modal sound (if you mean the sound of D Dorian) can be as short as one note if that note distinguishes that sound in that context.

    Quote Originally Posted by jzgtr
    Are these assumptions correct? Anything to add? I feel like I'm missing something or confused by the sheer amount of online content about modes that seems like it's applied to functional harmony. Sooooo much conflicting or ambiguous info! Somebody posted on Reddit with a similar post a while back.

    And how about these backing tracks for playing in the Dorian mode... isn't a ii V a less than ideal choice because the I is implied? Or is this OK because the dominant isn't actually functional?
    You will see lots of it is conflicting and ambiguous because some people are trying to hold things apart with definitions and others don't see much difference in performance. Take the tune "So What?" Tal 175 mentioned. When I play it, I use things from Dm pent, D Dorian, Eb and G Lydian Dominant, D, F and Ab Diminished, the seven quartal chords of D, and made up things I know not their names... all this during just the "D part". However, with another tune this kind of harmonic expression can't be explored like that; the other tune will have chord change harmonies that need to be expressed more directly and I go a more functional path. I may still use some of those things when passing through a Dm7 chord or related chords, I'll use them differently but won't really think of them so differently.

    I kind of fall on the side of not thinking there is much of a difference, just use my musical judgement to feel my way though what I think is appropriate and authentic to the tune.

  7. #6

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    'Ordinary' tunes, like most standards, are written around one or more tonal centres. Modal tunes aren't.

    Which doesn't mean you never use modes in ordinary tunes, like adding in an altered scale, or never use classical harmony in modal tunes. Miles uses D melodic minor (with the C#) in 'So What'. He also uses the blues scale (with the Ab).

    Use your ears. If it sounds all right, it is all right. If everybody stuck rigidly to the 'rules' we'd never make anything new, would we?

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzgtr
    My understanding of modal playing is that the underlying harmony dictates whether one is actually able to play modally. For example, we could play in D Dorian over 8 measures of Dm7. This would be modal playing because the chord lasts a long time, there is no functioning dominant, and if the next chord either modulates or is 'lateral' i.e. CMaj7 or Em7, this further reinforces "modal."

    However, I see guitarists all the time saying "D Dorian" when the Dm7 chord is short (e.g. half a bar) or there is a functioning dominant chord. For example, if we have a ii V I in C Major, the player says they are playing D Dorian over the ii (Dm7). But aren't they just playing C Major? There's not even enough time to establish a modal sound and more importantly, the V chord resolves to the I. Aren't they really just playing the major scale?
    I understand the notes are the same. But modes have a sound and for that sound to come out requires a) enough time and b) harmony that establishes the modes tonic, not a parent key.

    Are these assumptions correct? Anything to add? I feel like I'm missing something or confused by the sheer amount of online content about modes that seems like it's applied to functional harmony. Sooooo much conflicting or ambiguous info! Somebody posted on Reddit with a similar post a while back.

    And how about these backing tracks for playing in the Dorian mode... isn't a ii V a less than ideal choice because the I is implied? Or is this OK because the dominant isn't actually functional?
    youtube.com/watch?v=rQdEfvenheQ - Am D7
    youtube.com/watch?v=OfvCw3IcbSs - Dm G7
    youtube.com/watch?v=tYUi9AMaFUo - Gm7 C7

    Thank you in advance! Long-time lurker and I appreciate all of the insight everyone contributes to this forum.
    D dorian is the second degree of the C Major scale. You could think CMaj for your example but the reason to think Dmi is to make sure you're playing the chord tones of Dmi to establish that chord change. If the time is very short, you can still play chord tones and maybe something more.

    Those youtube examples are in the keys of G, C, and F. Whether the tune ever goes to the chord the key in (or not) doesn't matter. Some Santana songs are great examples of those two chords. So jam away in Dorian mode.

    Frank Gambale had a video called "Modes: no more mystery" that explains the 7 modes within the Major scale and when to use them. Too bad it was taken done from youtube.

  9. #8

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    ok so I think there’s value in lumping the ii V into one thing and treating it as separate to a I chord.

    So you see Dm7 G7 and you think either Dm7 or G7. Most experienced players I know amalgamate the two in some way. The important thing is that you are thinking of the two as being joined at the hip. This relationship should be internalised to the point of unconsciousness

    The notes to watch here is the B/C; which one are you going to use?

    So if you play D dorian over both Dm and G7 (big and clever solution for fast moving changes), you think about whether you want 13 (pushy dominant) or a b7 (suspended, static sound.)

    Of course you could play 7... but that’s another story.

  10. #9

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    II V relationship: the doorway into jazz harmony