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Originally Posted by peterk1
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02-26-2010 01:44 PM
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Reg,
I listened to #2, 3 & 7. I really liked. Great playing, and arrangement. Thanks for posting
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Originally Posted by fep
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Originally Posted by Reg
thanks for taking the time to share your work.
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I agree that music matters more than speed but I am surprised---and pleased--- by the number of posts here that focus on *melody,* as that isn't the primary focus of scale / arp-style study and playing. (That's *harmonic* playing, and not necessarily melodic. Coltrane running 1-2-3-5 patterns in "Giant Steps" sounds impressive but it's not much of a melody. Not that I'm complaining about his playing on that track.
I associate *melodic* playing with swing more than bop---Charlie Christian swung like mad and played melodically, though he rarely played arpeggios. I love his playing. Though he knew what to do at fast tempos and that may be the *real* issue here (-for me, anyway), being able to hang at brisk tempos because of lot of things sound good fast. I don't feel I must play 16th notes at 220+. What I really need to get past is the *fear* that siezes me when my turn to solo is coming up and the tempo is furious. "Wtf am I gonna do now????"
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Hey thanks a lot Randall...I don't remember what the Big Band chart was, that wasn't my chart, only saw it when we played the gig. There all just one take things... I'll try and download some hipper jazz tunes, or start recording more at different gigs. I'm in Calif. most of the time. Thanks again Reg
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Originally Posted by markerhodes
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Originally Posted by Reg
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Hey markerhodes...where did that come from...it's cool... Yea, I agree with your points...technique, yea very important. I play gigs all the time, it's always cool when everyone in band can cover... even vocalist gigs. Reg
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16th notes at 200 bpm.
16th note triplets at 140 bpm.
This is 800 notes per minute. That should do it. With dedicated practice everyone with 10 fingers, and normal functions can do it. This requires dedication, and some effort. But speed will never be an issue again. The time can used for music.
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Originally Posted by C.A.JO.
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I have a hard time developing speed. Maybe I'm too old.
Straight scales, I can do 16ths at 120bpm. Big deal, not very fast and who plays straight scales anyways.
But for jazz I think a better measure of speed is at what tempo can you play a Charlie Parker head. That's were the rubber meets the road.
I can play Blues for Alice at 170 bpm, but it's a struggle. At 160 bpm I'm comfortable...
But I think that's just not fast enough. You really do need to be fast for jazz if you want to include bebop in your repetoire.
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Yeah, we know how blazing fast Miles was. And Shorter, and Hall, and Green, and Henderson, and etc. Did you ever notice that people who talk fast and use a lot of words, don't necessarily say more?
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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
For me it's not about slow or fast.
It's about expression.
Why put restraints on your tools of expression? I really don't have any speed issues, because I've developed my technique to that point. I just play. If I want to express intensity, a fast passage can help me to it. Fast sequences can be used in very cool ways, if you know how to phrase well.
People always say that people who can play fast play TOO fast. No one ever accuses slow players to play TOO SLOW. I think you should be able to do what your self-expression requires. If it requires for you to be able to burn, then learn it. Otherwise don't bother.
This topic is about how fast is fast enough. My point: 800 npm, in all rhythms (from 8's to 16th note triplets) and techniques (picking, legato, scalar runs, arpeggios) should do it. The topic was not about how or when, to play fast, or why you have to be able to play fast.
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In Andrew Green's Jazz Technique book the fastest exercises (he mention a speed limit) are:
8th notes at 280 bpm (these are the fastest 8th note exercises in the book).
16th notes at 180 bpm (these are the fastest 16 note exercises in the book).
He mentions that one need to practice all exercises with different rhythms, though.
But this means that Andrew Green implies a general speed of ones technique should be somewhere around 560-720 npm.
650-700 npm would be a decent goal to aim for.
(Npm refers to the total amount of notes per minute. I find this way of describing speed better, because here you take all rhythms into consideration at once. Meaning, that 650-700 npm implies that your 8th note speed is around 325-350 bpm, 16th note speed is around 160-175 bpm, and your 16th note triplet speed should be around 110-120 bpm).Last edited by C.A.JO.; 03-22-2010 at 07:38 AM.
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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
There's no advantage to being *unable* to play fast.
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Originally Posted by markerhodes
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There's no advantage to being unable to pay fast, but there is an opportunity cost of spending hours building up your chops. You could have used that time differently.
Obviously in an ideal world you'd be able to spend huge swathes of time on every facet of your playing, but in reality people have to balance their priorities. It may be that by focusing on speed a player fails to develop the area where his true talent lies.
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The question I have is 'who is your audience if you're playing at 320 bpm?'
Probably adult musicians that only leave their basements because: a) Mom calls them for supper, b) Yngwie, Holdsworth, McLaughlin or Martino are playing in town, or c) a new Star Wars flick is out and they have to camp out at the theater 3 days early.
I'm not saying that McLaughlin, Martino, and company aren't incredibly talented, technical and tasteful. The issue is they seem to be compelled to play at the speed limit of musical comprehension for musicians, and way above it for normal folks who aren't musicians. Much of what they do is relatively inaccessible.
How fast is fast enough? Ultimately, just your audience and you are the ones qualified to answer that question.
Originally Posted by abracadabraLast edited by woyvel; 03-22-2010 at 11:14 PM.
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Just wanted to add that if you're young and unsure and reading this out of curiosity, you are probably wondering how much time to put into practicing speed. But the answer (as always) is in you, if fast is how you feel it, how you hear it in your head, then that's what needs to come out. Mind you, that's a bummer if that's the case, cos it's a lot of hard, repetitive work for an uncertain reward..... good luck!
Last edited by princeplanet; 03-23-2010 at 12:08 AM.
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My personal take on speed is to acquire as much of it as possible in practice and to use it as little as possible in performance. It adds another dimension to the experience as a performer and takes great discipline. And I believe that tension of holding back adds to the music-in a good way (and you just might slip up here and there with something that really surprises the listeners!). Just my opinion though.
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Originally Posted by abracadabra
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Originally Posted by markerhodes
Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 03-23-2010 at 11:04 AM.
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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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Miles has a decent track record of playing songs with fast tempos with the Philly Joe Jones/Paul Chambers band and also with Tony Williams/Ron Carter. He managed to make meaning musical statements in these uptempo environments and play with complete relaxation and confidence. He was not known for playing continuous 16th note lines like Coltrane but that contrast made the band more interesting. He is better known for his human quality of sound and his expressive use of space.
A studio player/freelancer strives to produce every manner of expression on command as needed to suit each situation.
A creative jazz player is more engaged in finding and projecting their individual voice.
Both paths are honorable pursuits.
For the studio player/freelancer it is necessary to be able to play fast because it will come up and failure is a bad option for future work prospects.
For the creative jazz player, how important it is depends on the individual.
Sorry for the oversimplified archetypes, just a tool to make a point.
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