JGBE Virtual Jam (Round 3) - So What/Impressions

[ragman1]

Two chorus with the Ebm a bit busier. It all seems much easier now we've dug into it!

[mr. beaumont]

Again, listen to the original! Cobb is signaling the changes.

Drummers who know form= priceless.

[ragman1]

I was doing that just before you posted. I think he gave a little roll at one point just before the Ebm once. The rest of the time he was banging on the actual change itself... but I better check it.

Tomorrow's Friday... :-)

[ragman1]

I'm not sure. He did do rolls before the change but he was also doing them when it wasn't the change too, within the sections. So I'm not sure. The question is: was he signalling or just being an interesting drummer?

[mr. beaumont]

Sure he does fills in other spots, but almost always at the changes.

[kris]

" So What" it is not an easy tune.
Most difficult is improvisation over one chord .

[wzpgsr]

" So What" it is not an easy tune.
Most difficult is improvisation over one chord .

Really demonstrated for me how little “language” I have assimilated.

[ragman1]

Really demonstrated for me how little “language” I have assimilated.

It's not as bad as you think. The weak points are when you're playing slow using pentatonic shapes because of the gaps between the notes. The good bits are when you start using lines. For example, go to 0.34 when you hit the Ebm. Suddenly there's a line and some fluidity. That sounds like jazz, right?

[kris]

Really demonstrated for me how little “language” I have assimilated.

You have to learn jazz all your life.

[kris]

easy...how many 25 licks you can play over dm7...?

[wzpgsr]

easy...how many 25 licks you can play over dm7...?

I’ve been training my brain to invent “language” on the spot through playing changes slowly and repeatedly a la Howard Roberts Superchops approach. Learning to hear where the harmony is moving and how to connect that to what I am actually able to grab with my hands in the moment. Superchops is Superuseful. Aside from, I’ve definitely absorbed some bebop cliches—triplets, descending lines with lots of chromatic, etc.—and I can hear ahead what I want to play a lot of time, at least rhythmically and in terms of line shape, if not always the exact notes. I recognize that this is a lifetime of constant learning and hopefully improving a bit here and there.

[kris]

I’ve been training my brain to invent “language” on the spot through playing changes slowly and repeatedly a la Howard Roberts Superchops approach. Learning to hear where the harmony is moving and how to connect that to what I am actually able to grab with my hands in the moment. Superchops is Superuseful. Aside from, I’ve definitely absorbed some bebop cliches—triplets, descending lines with lots of chromatic, etc.—and I can hear ahead what I want to play a lot of time, at least rhythmically and in terms of line shape, if not always the exact notes. I recognize that this is a lifetime of constant learning and hopefully improving a bit here and there.

Great! Howard Roberts was exelent player and teacher.I have few his books.
Superchops-there are a lot of exelent 251 licks.As I remember nice fourths and fifths examples.
I/ve worked on some of them long time ago.
I have tons of jazz guitar books but you do not have to learn all of them to be a good player.
It is a proces and do not forget to play live jams or gigs.
Best
Kris

[PickingMyEars]

Here's an epiphany I've had these past 3 years...

Jazz licks help you build a jazz vocabulary, but an extensive "lick-tionary" will not a great solo make.

Had a great lesson the other day about getting more mileage with the licks and vocabulary I already know.

How to add and subtract notes one at a time to create 8 lines out of one lick.

If you listen to Miles play, he's not playing a bunch of licks to get to the center of the modal tootsie pop. One...two... three... CRUNCH!

He is taking a few ideas and crafting lines and developing themes with them.

Same thing with Grant Green. I love his solos, but he uses pet "licks" to create engagingly musical statements that make you dance. Not a lick-tionary.

Sad news, my external hard drive pooped its pants. I thought WD was trust worthy . And that screwed up the memory card in my H4nPro Recorder (got to replace the card)

Good news, my other external still works. And... I tossed out that POS latest version of iTunes... using a version from 8 years ago (when Apple actually put effort into iTunes). Been fun reuploading my music...

Maybe I should just use records... But I have so many CDs and Mp3s...

[ragman1]

Jazz licks help you build a jazz vocabulary, but an extensive "lick-tionary" will not a great solo make.

Absolutely right. Repeating licks is imitative, not creative. A person depending on licks is a prisoner to them. The structure of licks may demonstrate the language but depending on licks is a fool's game. It's like someone speaking a language using a phrasebook, all they can do is repeat phrases.

I know all the arguments about starting with licks and eventually making your own lines, etc, but why start by doing the wrong thing? I know players who do licks. They think they're wonderful but they sound like machines.

Best to absorb the feel of the language and the phrasing by listening to the music a lot. I think, after years of playing, that I can remember about one lick out of a book because I knew that licks weren't really going to make me a fluid player. I looked at them, certainly, but wasn't going to program myself with them. I may not make brilliant music but at least it's mine!

If you listen to Miles play, he's not playing a bunch of licks to get to the centre of the modal tootsie pop... He is taking a few ideas and crafting lines and developing themes with them.

Exactly.

[kris]

Absolutely right. Repeating licks is imitative, not creative. A person depending on licks is a prisoner to them. The structure of licks may demonstrate the language but depending on licks is a fool's game. It's like someone speaking a language using a phrasebook, all they can do is repeat phrases.

I know all the arguments about starting with licks and eventually making your own lines, etc, but why start by doing the wrong thing? I know players who do licks. They think they're wonderful but they sound like machines.

Best to absorb the feel of the language and the phrasing by listening to the music a lot. I think, after years of playing, that I can remember about one lick out of a book because I knew that licks weren't really going to make me a fluid player. I looked at them, certainly, but wasn't going to program myself with them. I may not make brilliant music but at least it's mine!



Exactly.

Sorry to write this but you don't understand what I wrote before. Are you ignorant of jazz and jazz schools teaching and teaching methods?
There are hundreds of books on the market written by geniuses of guitar / Pat Martino, Joe Pass, B.Galbraith ... etc /. Many of them contain examples of the so-called Licks. By practicing such material you get to know the instrument and practice the so-called inner hearing. Feel the instrument like a jazz musician. I'm writing about guitar here, but there are also other instruments / books /. How can you understand jazz music and play when you don't know what's inside?
Besides, Licks are a great material for improving the technique ... some jazz giants still copy the licks of their colleagues.
Licks are just one of the elements of the jazz language.
Man what are you training?
May be this help...
Kris

[grahambop]

I know all the arguments about starting with licks and eventually making your own lines, etc, but why start by doing the wrong thing?

This is precisely how I learned. I believe it is how most jazz musicians learned too.

It’s a shame I have just found out I have been doing it wrong all these years.

[grahambop]

Incidentally I never really learned phrases from books. I did buy one of those ‘100 jazz guitar licks’ books but in the end I didn’t use it.

I copied everything by ear from records, I think that is much more beneficial because you learn a lot more than just the notes, you hear the context and you also learn the dynamics and rhythmic accents being used, in some ways these are more important than the notes themselves.

I also transcribed about a dozen solos, I didn’t really play them all that much afterwards, the main benefit here was the ear-training involved, and the amount of repeated concentrated listening to each phrase in order to write it down. It meant that a lot of the stuff just got absorbed subliminally I think.

[kris]

Incidentally I never really learned phrases from books. I did buy one of those ‘100 jazz guitar licks’ books but in the end I didn’t use it.

I copied everything by ear from records, I think that is much more beneficial because you learn a lot more than just the notes, you hear the context and you also learn the dynamics and rhythmic accents being used, in some ways these are more important than the notes themselves.

I also transcribed about a dozen solos, I didn’t really play them all that much afterwards, the main benefit here was the ear-training involved, and the amount of repeated concentrated listening to each phrase in order to write it down. It meant that a lot of the stuff just got absorbed subliminally I think.

Grahambop,
It doesn't matter if the lick is from a book or an album,cd or recording - it is a lick-element of jazz language.
When I got Pat Martino book with 251 licks I started transcribe his solos...all of that is jazz education!
Do you think Ragman transcribe solos?

[Dutchbopper]

Absolutely right. Repeating licks is imitative, not creative. A person depending on licks is a prisoner to them. The structure of licks may demonstrate the language but depending on licks is a fool's game. It's like someone speaking a language using a phrasebook, all they can do is repeat phrases.

I know all the arguments about starting with licks and eventually making your own lines, etc, but why start by doing the wrong thing? I know players who do licks. They think they're wonderful but they sound like machines.

Best to absorb the feel of the language and the phrasing by listening to the music a lot. I think, after years of playing, that I can remember about one lick out of a book because I knew that licks weren't really going to make me a fluid player. I looked at them, certainly, but wasn't going to program myself with them. I may not make brilliant music but at least it's mine!

Exactly.

You are so wrong here that I have to answer. Licks are simply parts of language that should be imitated, assimilated and then innovated and integrated into your own speech. No one says you should reproduce them mindlessly or identically. It's like a child learning to speak its mother language by imitating fragments of it. Licks are way better than scales because they ARE the language. Scales are not that. They are artificial constructs that nobody really plays.

DB

[kris]

DB
Big +1

[ragman1]

You are so wrong here that I have to answer. Licks are simply parts of language that should be imitated, assimilated and then innovated and integrated into your own speech. No one says you should reproduce them mindlessly or identically. It's like a child learning to speak its mother language by imitating fragments of it. Licks are way better than scales because they ARE the language. Scales are not that. They are artificial constructs that nobody really plays.

DB

You haven't really got what I said. I'm not against licks. What I was talking about was the dependency on licks. And I never mentioned scales.

[Dutchbopper]

You haven't really got what I said. I'm not against licks. What I was talking about was the dependency on licks. And I never mentioned scales.

That is not what I read.

Being dependent on licks? Whatever that is, it is not something that goes together with accomplished playing. It's for beginners. So pretty much an open door.

DB

[grahambop]

You haven't really got what I said. I'm not against licks. What I was talking about was the dependency on licks. And I never mentioned scales.

You did say that starting with licks is the wrong thing to do. I disagree with that.

But the whole aim is to learn and develop beyond the point of just churning them out. Anyone who doesn’t try to do that is missing the point.

[Dutchbopper]

You did say that starting with licks is the wrong thing to do. I disagree with that.

But the whole aim is to learn and develop beyond the point of just churning them out. Anyone who doesn’t try to do that is missing the point.

I have said this a million times here. This is the way all the old masters learned the language before that whole academic chord scale thing emerged in the 70s in music schools. The older guys imitated first, then assimilated and moved on and developed their own voice.

DB

[ragman1]

That is not what I read.

I said it:

'Repeating licks is imitative, not creative. A person depending on licks is a prisoner to them. The structure of licks may demonstrate the language but depending on licks is a fool's game.'

Being dependent on licks? Whatever that is, it is not something that goes together with accomplished playing. It's for beginners. So pretty much an open door.

Exactly, not accomplished playing.

I've looked at a thousand licks, I've got books on them, lots. I've played most of them. But it's a strange thing that they never stuck. At best, after all that, I can probably remember only one or two. And I think I use only one of them!

I got the feel for this by listening a lot and by playing tunes. You hear that a lot here: play tunes. You have to work out what to do with the chords, in context. As Graham was saying. But sitting going through set licks? It's imitative, not creative.

The best thing, maybe the only thing, is an all-round understanding of the music. That includes everything, scales, modes, theory, subs, reharming, phrasing, all the rest of it, even licks. And not theoretically either, by doing.

But, as I said, I'm not against licks. If people want to play licks, that's fine. But you get stuck in them, that's the point. One has to get beyond them.