The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by freud
    Christian, thanks for adding your video. A very interesting lesson. It shows that basically chord tones (from arpeggios or chord grips or triads) are the most important and the scales are a dead end? As you wrote - are they like a house of cards?

    Skeleton is chord tones on Beat 1 and 3 (and the rest are approach notes?)
    Scales are not a dead end they are another resource, and I use them all the time; but if you want to be able to clearly express harmonies in your playing you need to be able to ... errr.... express harmonies in your playing. And groove. You don’t play over music, you play music.

    That’s one reason why need to wean people off backing tracks; you can always tell when people are used to that crutch.

    Players you play scales without a conception of harmony tend to play a lot of steps and float over the changes. You don’t hear harmonic information clearly. In classical music, Bach say, chord tones are the main thing and scale and chromatic tones add passing dissonance, colour and melody. Same is true of bop lines.

    That’s what the guy isn’t doing in the Pat lesson right? He’s just going up and down and the right scales but it’s got no skeleton. It’s musical jelly. Absolute classic; I hear this a lot in fairly accomplished amateur players. They play pleasing note choices but take away the backing and the chords aren’t really there. Often their time is a bit woolly as well.

    I used to be like that too.

    So do the triad thing BEFORE doing scales. Don’t use a backing track if you can help it.

    It’s good to start simple . Playing chord tones on Beats 1 and 3 is not jazz. It’s not even music really though it can be musically done.

    That starts to give you a roadmap. Better still you can hear these notes clearly.

    But you also need the rhythm thing. Phrases are best learned by ear. The two things are interlinked; chord tones tend to be expressed on rhythmic accents. This is better heard than explained.

    Be able to make interesting and cool rhythmic phrases without pitches. Steal them if you need to.

    Attend to these basics if you don’t want to sound like an amateur. Take them very seriously. I still practice this. I’ve heard Lage Lund practice this.... All the good jazz changes players have done this work or something very similar.

    As Pat says, you don’t necessarily want to always to do this as a jazz player; but it is an essential skill.

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  3. #27

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    I see this very differently from Christian, apparently.

    It seems quite possible that a very different approach to the task has resulted in a different take on the utility of backing tracks.

    I think it's important to hear the harmony when you play. Unless you can hear it so clearly in mind that you don't need anything else, I don't understand how you can fully appreciate the full sound without hearing the harmony. Well, at least, I can't.

    I think that using the backing track can help you focus on the chord tones, arps or licks for every part of the song. And, doing them in 12 keys means you'll never get thrown by a modulation in a different tune. If you don't know the chord tones for a particular chord, you can drill it until you do.

    The mechanical rhythm track isn't great, but it's still possible to swing against it. And, check your time against it.

    It's not a substitute for playing live, but I think it's a great way to practice.

  4. #28
    Gentlemen, thanks a lot for your replies. They really helped me and opened my eyes to many of the doubts I had.


    I also understand your approach. It is really interesting how everyone arranges it differently in order to finally achieve the goal.


    I became interested in traids. First of all, because my scales are so well mastered (fingerings 3 notes per strings) that I play them in various configurations almost mechanically. That's why it's easy for me to see the triads inside the scales now. And move them to better reflect the harmony. I think this is a good path because it combines two important things. I also like to play melodies and motifs based strictly on the sounds of the scale. So if I add a triad to this, the effect can be interesting


    Thanks again for your help! And best regards.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by freud
    Gentlemen, thanks a lot for your replies. They really helped me and opened my eyes to many of the doubts I had.


    I also understand your approach. It is really interesting how everyone arranges it differently in order to finally achieve the goal.


    I became interested in traids. First of all, because my scales are so well mastered (fingerings 3 notes per strings) that I play them in various configurations almost mechanically. That's why it's easy for me to see the triads inside the scales now. And move them to better reflect the harmony. I think this is a good path because it combines two important things. I also like to play melodies and motifs based strictly on the sounds of the scale. So if I add a triad to this, the effect can be interesting


    Thanks again for your help! And best regards.
    No problem hope it’s helpful.

    None of the work is wasted. When you’ve worked on chord tones the scale stuff will have a new context as you say .

    I’d also say bust out of fingerings. Practice playing chord tones fretting with your index finger only and along one string etc .

  6. #30
    Thanks Christian.


    You know ... 2 years ago, for a few months I was learning Garrison Fewell's triad pairs. I even played them pretty well but then I realized that I was starting to sound like Wes ... Especially when I added the triplet feel - the one you write about - resulting from the fretting fingers technique. I achieved a very classic old school sound, and I was looking for a more modern one. That's why then I went to chord - scales approach.


    But, if You recomend triads, to clarify, you mean to approach each chord separately. Eg. Dm7, G7, Cmaj7 - and now for Dm7 we play triads from this chord etc?
    Can we 251 play with 1-2 scales and play triads that are inside that scale?
    Are the triads for you a way of playing scale (mobility)?

    Should I approach triads from the point of view of chords or scale?

  7. #31

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    Tim Lerch just made a video you might find helpful.



    Use your scales and arps as tools to make music, that‘s probably the gist of it.


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  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by freud
    Thanks Christian.


    You know ... 2 years ago, for a few months I was learning Garrison Fewell's triad pairs. I even played them pretty well but then I realized that I was starting to sound like Wes ... Especially when I added the triplet feel - the one you write about - resulting from the fretting fingers technique. I achieved a very classic old school sound, and I was looking for a more modern one. That's why then I went to chord - scales approach.
    That makes sense, most modern players have studied CST. But there's a lot of ways to use it. Many modern players seem to favour triads and pentatonics for example, to get upper structure sounds on chords.

    Triads are just basic building blocks of (western) music. They don't really have a stylistic association. Outlining a harmonic progression clearly in a line is a basic skill. That might mean outlining triads in a 12 bar, or superimposing a Giant Steps cycle in triads or whatever on a vamp.

    I just seeing it as learning your instrument.

    But, if You recomend triads, to clarify, you mean to approach each chord separately. Eg. Dm7, G7, Cmaj7 - and now for Dm7 we play triads from this chord etc?
    Can we 251 play with 1-2 scales and play triads that are inside that scale?
    The triads are a way of outlining harmony. (Chord) scales themselves don't do this awfully well if you don't learn to use them as harmonic and intervallic combinations. If you can't do this with triads, I don't know why you would try and do it with larger pitch sets. Also you can go a long way with triads, just go listen to some modern players.

    Are the triads for you a way of playing scale (mobility)?
    I think I tend to see scales and chords as a two way relationship? Generally I practice not playing in position. Positions is what you do when you are learning the guitar, you need the muscle memory... later on it becomes more important to be flexible. I do like the way I end up moving around the neck with triads. I do get a bit stuck sometimes with positions.

    You can add scale tones in as you see fit.

    Should I approach triads from the point of view of chords or scale?
    Every (7 note) scale has 7 triads in it, of course. 7 four note seventh chords and so on. So yeah? Most players spend time practicing those, because it's a good way of making scales sound like something.

    It's all resources. There's not one method by which you an improvise. CST is useful for generating options on static chords and creating colours. It is not a panacea for improvising even in a modern style

    The thing is in changes based music you rarely have time to exhaust all the options. That's why I think I've found the triads thing so helpful; it helps me strip things back and focus on the sounds.

    You may get more mileage subbing one progression for another, and outlining that simply. So once you get good at
    Dm G C

    You can play around with things like
    F E Em
    F Eb Em

    Over the progression (the first example has a G half-whole sensibility and the second more of an altered scale sensibility) - is that a bit 'triad pair'-sy? I haven't looked at the Garrison Fewell stuff.

    Then, adding notes to triads is fun, so

    Fadd2 Eaddb2 Emadd4
    Fadd2 Ebaddb6 Emadd4

    You can even run one arp into the other
    Dm/F G/E C/Em
    etc

    And so on. There's also pentatonics.

    And then full 7 note scale patterns etc. Of course when you get into running patterns and so on at high speed, you are back in muscle memory territory. You can't improvise fast playing; the best you can do is combine pre-practiced chunks.

    And I find it limited the way you usually build up from the root; it's better to thing for instance, E Aeolian on C major, or Eb mixolydian b6 on G7 if you are into that type of thing building from our triad examples, because it gets you into a more interesting emphasis. This is the way Adam Rogers does it. Because of this I find it useful to build scale options out from triads be they root position or subs.

    But that's ONE way of doing it, and you can't do this unless you have mastered the basics. People also make the mistake of thinking harmonic options will make them sound as hip as their idols. In fact, unless you have the intuitive understanding - rhythmic and melodic - to use these ideas musically, they will tend to fall flat. That's why most players start with straightahead/bop because it gives you the language (and when does bop not sound GREAT in a fusion context?)

    But not all. You could learn plenty of bop language listening to Mike Brecker on old fusion records.

    And that's just if you want to create lines that agree with/extend the vanilla harmony all the time. That's not necessarily what goes on; there's outside playing obviously, but also much functional playing. And then you have players like Holdsworth who I don't think did the triads thing like ever, but had a scale oriented approach. But in his case, it still came from a place of having listened to a lot of music.)

    All of this stuff is hard to talk about because I wouldn't actually talk about all this stuff if I was teaching a student. I would focus only on what they needed to work on. Beyond that, I suggest developing a solid grasp on the basics if you haven't, and listening closely to your favourite players. That's it really.
    It's tough to advise without knowing about how you play. I'm really just saying the stuff that helps me, and helps my students.

    Unpacking just one lick from a favourite player by ear and working out what's going on can do more to teach you about how to apply resources than a million screeds like this one. That's often what's missing on discussions of improv/theory on this forum.
    Last edited by christianm77; 01-29-2021 at 07:01 AM.

  9. #33
    Christian! Thanks for your mini lecture ... It's very nice that you are sharing your knowledge.
    Now I can see and understand that so far I have used "shortcuts" without going into the true nature of music. From what I can see, without knowing the essence itself, it will be difficult to go further in consciously playing. That's why you motivated me to learn about the triads.


    I promise, one last question
    So how do you approach playing triads from the practical side?
    Do you consider each chord separately - play different triads starting with 1,3,5,7 of each separate chord? Plus upper extension triadas?
    Or maybe you look at the broader context - and play each key with different triads (as if the tonal center approach but with triads?). I am not talking about the static chord situation but about changes.

    I am asking because I think improvising in real time is very demanding for our processor
    Analyzing all possible triads in real time plus adding upper structures triadas for each chord separately in different inversions is quite breakneck ... So I am asking not about the theoretical side, but the practical one.

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by freud
    Christian! Thanks for your mini lecture ... It's very nice that you are sharing your knowledge.
    Now I can see and understand that so far I have used "shortcuts" without going into the true nature of music. From what I can see, without knowing the essence itself, it will be difficult to go further in consciously playing. That's why you motivated me to learn about the triads.


    I promise, one last question
    So how do you approach playing triads from the practical side?
    Do you consider each chord separately - play different triads starting with 1,3,5,7 of each separate chord? Plus upper extension triadas?
    Or maybe you look at the broader context - and play each key with different triads (as if the tonal center approach but with triads?). I am not talking about the static chord situation but about changes.

    I am asking because I think improvising in real time is very demanding for our processor
    Analyzing all possible triads in real time plus adding upper structures triadas for each chord separately in different inversions is quite breakneck ... So I am asking not about the theoretical side, but the practical one.
    You can't.

    If you have to think about any of this stuff, it doesn't work. It has be intuitive. That means hearing it and having it in your muscle memory.

    People don't realise how much ingraining things take. It takes months just to get one thing. It's taken years to get some concepts into my playing.

    Quantitive knowledge is cheap; embodied knowledge is hard won. That's the painful lesson of music. Just because you can do something in the practice room doesn't mean you have it.

    People often move through stuff too quickly. Try recording yourself though; when your playing falls apart, you know there's more work to be done lol.

    Don't worry about improvisation too much. Writing things can be a good way to develop your improvisation vocabulary.