The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Ok I started getting lessons from Jimmy Bruno's workshop 4 years ago (I did it for around a year and some) Since then I have been working on my jazz playing using Jimmy's key center approach to improvisation mostly centered on creating melodies using your ear. I have progressed after his lessons using arpeggios, targeting notes and using modal interchange for sub dominants. I feel like i want to get lessons again to help me and I'm wondering if there is another teacher who you think would match this method of improvising. Any suggestions would be great.

    Quick note: I recently took a lesson from a "internet influencer" guitarist. Great guitarist but we spent a lot of time talking about the differences on how we hear / think of scale degrees as we improvise. He thinks chord by chord and I think with functional harmony and key centers. So if we are in the key of C and G7 goes by he would think of G B D F as 1 3 5 b7 and I would think of it as 5 7 2 4.

    Quick note 2: You may wonder why I do it this way. It matches how I hear music... meaning when I hear the 5 chord go by I hear its arpeggio as 5 7 2 4 within the key because I hear with solfege so I hear So Ti Re Fa. Hope that makes sense... so the reason is to match what I hear with how I'm thinking. It makes transferring melodies much easier for me.

    Here are a couple of cuts of me playing...
    Autumn Leaves

    Summertime (Solo at 55 seconds)

    Here is the kind of music I do in my band...
    Last edited by tonejunkie; 12-18-2020 at 10:15 PM.

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  3. #2

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    Not sure what you're asking, but, to me it sounds like you're making the changes as opposed to skating over them (most of the time anyway). Also, I don't know how advanced key centre approaches can get given that it is seen as way of simplifying things. Many players delineate V vs I as opposed to just thinking I over everything, and although this too is a form of simplification, it can get advanced with a high number of possible substitutions. Check out the George Benson Method thread that features Peter Farrell who might be a teacher who gets into advanced subbing for the Tonic / Dominant thing (especially Dominant - for obvious reasons...)

  4. #3

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    If you want a substitute Jimmy Bruno teacher then, to be honest, I don't know. However, most teachers will teach tonal centres because it's one way of approaching a chord progression. Therefore you may find yourself covering the same ground, stuff you already know.

    But tonal centres aren't the only way to solo, they're just one way. They're a tool amongst other tools. My thinking would be not to go backwards, as it were, but expand on what you've got already. I'd research different teachers and see what they have to offer. Bernstein, for example.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Check out the George Benson Method thread that features Peter Farrell
    Thanks! Yeah I will check him out :-)

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    If you want a substitute Jimmy Bruno teacher then, to be honest, I don't know. However, most teachers will teach tonal centres because it's one way of approaching a chord progression. Therefore you may find yourself covering the same ground, stuff you already know.

    But tonal centres aren't the only way to solo, they're just one way. They're a tool amongst other tools. My thinking would be not to go backwards, as it were, but expand on what you've got already. I'd research different teachers and see what they have to offer. Bernstein, for example.
    Makes sense... yeah that is what I was thinking is a substitute for Jimmy (I've tried to email several times but no response). And your suggestion to get a new perspective is a good suggestion :-) Using Jimmy's method helped me grow so much and I'm wondering if I reached its conclusion. I will check out Peter's stuff :-)

  7. #6

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    Maybe I'm missing something but it seems this method only goes so far. Songs with more complex chord progressions have a need for analyzing each chord for what scales work best for each. The trick is knowing when key centers work and when more analysis is needed - and connecting those changes so it doesn't sound like you're just switching scales.

    This may not apply to those that have developed amazing ears!

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by bobby d
    Maybe I'm missing something but it seems this method only goes so far. Songs with more complex chord progressions have a need for analyzing each chord for what scales work best for each. The trick is knowing when key centers work and when more analysis is needed - and connecting those changes so it doesn't sound like you're just switching scales.

    This may not apply to those that have developed amazing ears!
    I hear ya. I do work on my ear about half my practice time and the reason for me doing it this way is to match how I'm hearing music. I do use quite a bit of a modal interchange to "change scales" as I play over a tune but I am very arpeggio focused. Meaning for example when I play over a blues I am going form I7 with Mixolydian and then switching to Dorian when I'm on the IV7 chord but I'm hearing melodies in my mind that focus on the scale degrees 4 6 1 b3 the chord tones of the 4 chord if your thinking in the home key. I'm sure there will be some tunes that I try in the future that will throw me for a loop but I'm still a novice at this point.

    Really what this hole thread is about is my trying to find anyone else who teaches and thinks of playing changes like this.

  9. #8

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    If you think of the V chord as starting on the fifth degree, so G7 isn't 1 3 5 b7 but rather 5 7 2 4, then what happens when a song changes key or gets ambigous as to key?

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    If you think of the V chord as starting on the fifth degree, so G7 isn't 1 3 5 b7 but rather 5 7 2 4, then what happens when a song changes key or gets ambigous as to key?
    Yep thats right.... Like in Autumn leaves I think of it as two keys. If we are playing it in G minor. The two keys I hear it in is G minor and Bb Major. If we are in a blues I hear it all in one key including the subdominant VI7 leading to the ii7... So he 3rd of the VI7 chord so if we were in C the 3rd of the A7 chord is a C# and it sounds like a #1 or b2 to me when it goes by. I'm actually starting to understand the way I do it must be really weird...

    As far as the Ambiguous key thing I have not really had any experiences like that yet. I've made most of my money playing funk music, reggae, and soul jazz. I'm not really a side man any more I just play my instrumental music in my own band so I don't really encounter anything ambiguous that I bet a bunch of you get. The standard jazz tunes I've really worked on are several Jazz Blues tunes, Autumn Leaves, Blue Bossa, Solar, and Satin Doll.

  11. #10

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    tonejunkie -

    I'd like to know what you mean by 'advanced' key centre playing. I mean, a key centre is a key centre. However, it can be very ambiguous to know exactly when they start and finish. Is that what you mean?

  12. #11

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    Disclaimer, I am not a great player, but I think your approach is perfectly natural. As long as you can still manage things like secondary dominants, alterations, and substitutions with such an approach it sounds fine.

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    tonejunkie -

    I'd like to know what you mean by 'advanced' key centre playing. I mean, a key centre is a key centre although it can be ambiguous as to exactly when they start and finish. Is that what you mean?
    What I mean is that when I hear most teachers talk about the key center approach what I hear is just play this scale and use your ears and that is great. But... what I'm trying to do at this point is learn jazz vocabulary using this key center approach due to how I hear lines on recordings and how I hear them in my mind. So if we are playing C Blues and a teacher tells me to play F Mixolydian over F7 its confusing... meaning that when I'm playing a F it sounds like a 4 to me not the 1. Or on a recording I heard a B on the G7 chord I would hear it as 7th of the key not the 3rd of G7. So I'm searching for another teacher like Jimmy Bruno to keep going down this road... Maybe its not a thing. I'm trying to explain the best I can.

    Here is another example I have struggled with... I wanted to try some altered scale sounds over the V7 chord. I would see that the altered scale is spelled 1 b2 b3 3 b5 #5 b7 but when I hear it in real music as well as to make it useful to me I have to re-spell the scale 5 b6 b7 7 b2 b3 4. With this thread I was trying to see if there is anyone who does this. I will be learning all the lines that others play but just with those sounds in mind. I have been working on this in isolation for a fair bit...

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by charlieparker
    Disclaimer, I am not a great player, but I think your approach is perfectly natural. As long as you can still manage things like secondary dominants, alterations, and substitutions with such an approach it sounds fine.
    Thanks for the encouraging words... yeah I'm working on all those. In particular a secondary dominant VI7 Chord and alterations on the V7 chord right now with the jazz blues.

  15. #14
    I think what I'm going to do is just find someone to give me lessons on how they go about creating lines using the chord by chord method and just translate it so my ears will be happy. I just am working on this stuff so much I really want to talk to someone else doing it this way.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonejunkie
    I think what I'm going to do is just find someone to give me lessons on how they go about creating lines using the chord by chord method and just translate it so my ears will be happy. I just am working on this stuff so much I really want to talk to someone else doing it this way.
    Check out Jordan Klemons who sometimes posts here. His stuff will do exactly that

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonejunkie
    What I mean is that when I hear most teachers talk about the key center approach what I hear is just play this scale and use your ears and that is great.
    Well, they shouldn't be saying 'just play this scale and use your ears and that is great'! There's a bit more to it than that, key centred approach or not.

    learn jazz vocabulary using this key center approach due to how I hear lines on recordings
    You realise they may not be using a strictly key centred approach? Especially with bebop.

    if we are playing C Blues and a teacher tells me to play F Mixolydian over F7 its confusing
    I'm sure it is confusing. Again, it's not as simple as 'play F mixolydian'. It's more a question of playing something that sounds right over that chord for that tune. Analytically, it probably would mean using notes from F mixo but not necessarily only them. And not necessarily using F mixo at all. Have a look at some You Tube transcriptions over a blues and see what they do for that IV7 chord.

    I wanted to try some altered scale sounds over the V7 chord. I would see that the altered scale is spelled 1 b2 b3 3 b5 #5 b7 but when I hear it in real music as well as to make it useful to me I have to re-spell the scale 5 b6 b7 7 b2 b3 4. With this thread I was trying to see if there is anyone who does this. I will be learning all the lines that others play but just with those sounds in mind. I have been working on this in isolation for a fair bit...
    Again, the same applies. Don't screw your head up with these numbers and all that. You know what notes you've got. Try them out. Apart from the G7 chord tones within the C scale you also have the altered sounds - Db, Eb, Ab and Bb. So you know if you want to make it sound altered you include them in your line, right? That's all. Use them any way you like.

    You see, we've already got away from the strict key centre idea because those altered sounds aren't in C. So you've broken it already.

    Have a look at this. Slow it down using the Settings thing if necessary. Forget the piano, look at the lines he's using. It's far from 'key centred'. Well, it is and it isn't, if you see what I mean. It goes outside that. You don't have to play anything as fast as this, of course.


  18. #17

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    Look, I've just done this. It's not C Jam Blues but it's the same idea using the usual jazz progression:

    C7 - F7 - C7 - %
    F7 - F#o - C7 - A7
    Dm7 - G7 - C7 - G7

    It's all take one. I'm not thinking 'key centre', I'm just putting in notes that go with the chords, knowing it's got to be bluesy. I've put in altered notes over the G7. I don't know what I did, I just used them because I know they're there.

    If I did it again it wouldn't be the same. Same idea, not the same thing. In fact, if I did it again, having done that one, I'd probably get more extreme and use altered notes over the A7 too.


  19. #18

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    Sorry, couldn't resist, it must be Christmas. This one's more intricate but sounds simpler. There's a lot more C pentatonic blues in it but more subs (like A7 alt). And there's a very straight F mixo run near the end.

    Again, I wasn't thinking key centres, I was just running notes against the chords. I really couldn't tell you how it came out except obviously I knew what was happening chord-wise. But it's always different each time and I think that's the main point. If you're stuck in one formula then it'll sound quite samey and the ideas run out pretty quickly.


  20. #19

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    In listening to the Autumn Leaves solo (good playing BTW) is there is nothing there resembling AL. It’s a Solo that could go over any similar set of chord changes. So a couple of thoughts on correcting that.
    Jimmys point above re working with a vocalist is spot on, as they have to breath to sing. Us guitar players exist in an oxygen depleted universe where playing can and does go on and on and on. With nary a breath. Like Miles said: ‘play the rests’. Phrasing is created by silence.
    I believe (and it’s how I was taught) paying attention to the standard underneath your improvisation is important: using the intervals and melodic direction of the standard reinforce in the listener a connection with something they know. This is not trivial, it requires study of the standard. It’s not comfortable like running up and down theoretically correct combinations of arps, modes, scales and such can be. There’s a lot of thinking, trying and planning involved.
    Playing with a vocalist I think forces you to not just be wandering around behind them, that would sound pretty awful. It should come across as a question/answer sort of thing, complementing and supporting the vocalist. Check out Ella Fitzgerald and Joe Pass, Tuck and Patty.
    and... have fun)
    d

  21. #20

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    I think one thing you might want to do is just learn some lines you like that are less diatonic with some alterations or notes out of the associated major scale. Then if you can internalize them and think about them with your approach which would probably get you more comfortable using those alterations.

    I'm sure you can already do this with things like a b3 or a b5. It's more about getting comfortable with more sounds. YMMV

  22. #21

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    Write out the chords in the key and note the accidentals. The feature those notes heavily in your playing.

  23. #22

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    But, of course, the blues isn't really key centred anyway. Maybe it's in 'C Blues', whatever that is!

    Key centres really apply to tunes that literally drift in and out of various keys, like All The Things You Are, or any other tune that uses different keys. That's a different ball game.

    And modal tunes like Blue In Green, are something else again. That's why I'm saying beware of formulas. Formulas seem nice and safe - just play x - but then you're stuck in it and where's the feeling gone?

    This is honestly a very serious point.

  24. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    You see, we've already got away from the strict key centre idea because those altered sounds aren't in C. So you've broken it already.
    OK so now I think we are onto the issue!!! YAY :-) I've got it in my head that due to me hearing "the blues for example" in one key that I'm using the "key center approach" is that not the case?

    So basically through this thread what I'm understanding is I am already using the arp method or chord by chord method but I just think of it a little differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
    Find people now who are on your level or better and be a supportive and attentive skype partner.
    Yes I have been reaching out lately to my friends... Mostly guitarists although the ones that are better than me with this stuff I'm going to have to pay :-) I know some horn player who would love to hang who are better than me for sure... I'll have to hit them up :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by jazzkritter
    In listening to the Autumn Leaves solo (good playing BTW) is there is nothing there resembling AL. It’s a Solo that could go over any similar set of chord changes. So a couple of thoughts on correcting that.
    d
    Yeah I'm going to explore your suggestions... I am still in the throws of playing the "right notes" and don't feel very free yet. I will work on making it sound more like the tune.

    Quote Originally Posted by charlieparker
    I think one thing you might want to do is just learn some lines you like that are less diatonic with some alterations or notes out of the associated major scale. Then if you can internalize them and think about them with your approach which would probably get you more comfortable using those alterations.
    For sure... great suggestion. I have been transcribing Grant Green lately... Here is a transcription I just did. There is definitely some short spots where is altering the harmony. The Imgur link is the chart I wrote.
    Imgur: The magic of the Internet

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    But, of course, the blues isn't really key centred anyway. Maybe it's in 'C Blues', whatever that is!
    Blues is like a colour and feeling. You can put it on any tune.

    OTOH you can choose to play a blues super functionally.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    And modal tunes like Blue In Green, are something else again.
    Blue and Green isn't modal.