The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    My experience is that odd meters get much easier after enough repetition. The definition of "enough" varies from one player to the next, but, typically, it's a lot of time playing those grooves.

    Now and then, I've found analysis to be helpful. I can think of one Hermeto Pascoal tune where the "clave" of the melody is turned backwards in part of tune -- and it may be a little easier to play when you realize it.

    But, for the most part, it's a question of getting a feel for it via repetition.

    Some patterns are easier to feel than others. 7/4 tends to be easier than 5/4 for most players, although that can be flipped if the 5/4 is the Take Five rhythm or the Mission Impossible rhythm.

    You know it's working when you can get off the clave, omit the one, cross the bar lines and so forth - without getting lost.

    How do you tap your foot? In 7, you can tap 1 3 5 7 1 3 5 7. But, remember, the 7-1 interval is twice as fast as the others because there's no quarter note in between.

    Or you can tap seven half notes ... with the first bar having the strong beats on the downtap and the second bar having the strong beats on the uptap.

    Or don't tap at all.

    Whichever way you do it, it needs to be as automatic as tapping (however you prefer to tap) in 4/4.

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  3. #52

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    In Konnakol the Tala (analogous to meter) is given by the hands. You kind of count with the hands while you sing the rhythms. You don’t tap the foot.

    This is how you would do 7, for example


    There are some advantages to this... one is that it’s a bit easier to spot when you’ve messed up the timing. (At least that’s what I find.)

    Obviously not so easy to do this when playing guitar though lol. It’s a bit more like singing while you play the guitar?

    Any rhythmic independence stuff strengthens it. Konnakol is simply a well worked out system for dealing with these mathematical possibilities.

    I hear you about hearing 7 as a two bar figure with an downbeat side and an upbeat side. That is one way of feeling it, but isn’t quite what my teacher was talking about. When you feel it this way I suppose you are turning two bars of 7/8 into a 7/4 phrase. I have a tune that does this in the middle 8 actually, goes into 7/4 swing from a Balkan style short short long groove.

    What I find quite fun is the way bop scales work in 7/8, which relates to this amalgamation idea.
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-10-2020 at 05:40 AM.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    (continuing slightly OT)
    can you help me with this ....

    im feeling
    12312
    12312
    12312
    12123

    am I on the right track ?
    Hi I didn’t see this. Yes it does feel like that. More important to me is that the 2 accent in the 4th bar of 5/4 actually feels like more of an upbeat accent than the actual upbeats, the ‘2 ands’ he was playing in the earlier bars.

    (Also notice that it feels better to have that ‘2 and’ upbeat quite straight than to swing it? That’s the way Peter plays it. Interesting)

    The reason is because it is going against the 3+2 grouping of course. But that accent (and the one on 5) would be an upbeat/offbeat in either grouping if that makes sense? Because the downbeats would be on the start of the 2+3 or 3+2 grouping.

    On a psychological level you could say it’s simply setting up expectations and then subverting them, and if that isn’t a good description of jazz rhythm I don’t know what is really. (or any music for that matter...)

    Going back to 4/4... In classical music rhythms, those expectations are basically always downbeats, and any syncopations are subversions of the norm.

    In jazz and other African Diaspora musics, these expectations can include both upbeats and downbeats. Son clave is a familiar example of this.
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-10-2020 at 05:49 AM.

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    In Konnakol the Tala (analogous to meter) is given by the hands. You kind of count with the hands while you sing the rhythms. You don’t tap the foot.

    This is how you would do 7, for example


    There are some advantages to this... one is that it’s a bit easier to spot when you’ve messed up the timing. (At least that’s what I find.)

    Obviously not so easy to do this when playing guitar though lol. It’s a bit more like singing while you play the guitar?

    Any rhythmic independence stuff strengthens it. Konnakol is simply a well worked out system for dealing with these mathematical possibilities.

    I hear you about hearing 7 as a two bar figure with an downbeat side and an upbeat side. That is one way of feeling it, but isn’t quite what my teacher was talking about. When you feel it this way I suppose you are turning two bars of 7/8 into a 7/4 phrase. I have a tune that does this in the middle 8 actually, goes into 7/4 swing from a Balkan style short short long groove.

    What I find quite fun is the way bop scales work in 7/8, which relates to this amalgamation idea.
    Airto did a tune called Tombo In 7/4.

    There is a drum solo in which he grunts (maybe more of a bark, but certainly a guttural sound) the downs and ups, three of each.

    xoxoxo oxoxox oo

    That's useful for Samba in 7. It will help with Misturada (another of his tunes) as well.

    I watched the Misra Chapu video. It divides the 7 differently and I couldn't easily sing a typical 7/4 pattern over it because the accenting is so different. I understand that it's a time honored, effective and deep subject. Whether it is a more efficient way of building the skills you need to play odd meter jazz than simply jumping into the pool (by playing it for hours) is a question I'll leave alone.

    Here's my tip for getting started playing odd meter without getting lost.

    Make sure the drummer makes the straight groove audible at all times. If he goes careening off into outer space, so will you, at least until you've grown the brain tissue that allows you to hear the original pulse in a sea of conflicting noise.

    Here's a story.

    The first time I ever had to solo during a performance in 7/4, Edu Ribeiro (whose name you might know from his Grammy with Paquito D'Rivera as part of Trio Corrente) was the drummer. (I was a student). Edu was extremely kind and asked if there was anything he could do to help. I think he understood I was struggling with the 7. I said, initially thinking I was joking, that I would appreciate a loud cymbal hit on the one in every bar.

    There were two guitar players. The other player soloed right before me. He was a young guy named Scooter (hello, if you're reading this), who tore it up. He played a brilliant solo which I later transcribed because I liked it so much. He was playing electric.

    I was playing nylon and I knew there was absolutely no way that I could follow him playing my slowhand single note style.

    The tune was Buritizais. 7/4 at around 232 bpm. The solo section is an 4 bar vamp with some atypical harmony. I decided to do it by playing one chord per bar for 3 bars and a couple chords in the 4th bar -- with the most interesting voicings I could manage. I started doing it and in bar 2 I heard Edu's cymbal crash. He kept that up for the entire solo. All 20 or so notes. And it helped. It would have helped even more if I'd tried to go away from the obvious down down down up up up.

    Scooter was very complimentary afterward, although I assume he was being kind.

    Edu has educational videos, in English, on youtube. I recommend everything he does. Brilliant player (up for at least one more Grammy this year, with Chico Pinheiro, who is nominated for City of Dreams) great teacher, very generous and caring person.

    Check this one out, for example.


  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Airto did a tune called Tombo In 7/4.

    There is a drum solo in which he grunts (maybe more of a bark, but certainly a guttural sound) the downs and ups, three of each.

    xoxoxo oxoxox oo

    That's useful for Samba in 7. It will help with Misturada (another of his tunes) as well.

    I watched the Misra Chapu video. It divides the 7 differently and I couldn't easily sing a typical 7/4 pattern over it because the accenting is so different. I understand that it's a time honored, effective and deep subject. Whether it is a more efficient way of building the skills you need to play odd meter jazz than simply jumping into the pool (by playing it for hours) is a question I'll leave alone.

    Here's my tip for getting started playing odd meter without getting lost.

    Make sure the drummer makes the straight groove audible at all times. If he goes careening off into outer space, so will you, at least until you've grown the brain tissue that allows you to hear the original pulse in a sea of conflicting noise.

    Here's a story.

    The first time I ever had to solo during a performance in 7/4, Edu Ribeiro (whose name you might know from his Grammy with Paquito D'Rivera as part of Trio Corrente) was the drummer. (I was a student). Edu was extremely kind and asked if there was anything he could do to help. I think he understood I was struggling with the 7. I said, initially thinking I was joking, that I would appreciate a loud cymbal hit on the one in every bar.
    So your tip is - lean on the drummer?

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I hear you about hearing 7 as a two bar figure with an downbeat side and an upbeat side. That is one way of feeling it, but isn’t quite what my teacher was talking about. When you feel it this way I suppose you are turning two bars of 7/8 into a 7/4 phrase. I have a tune that does this in the middle 8 actually, goes into 7/4 swing from a Balkan style short short long groove.
    Continuing on OT.

    I'm struggling to understand the difference. The 'misra cala' video to me sounds like sort of 'cut-time' for a complex 3/4+4/4 with strokes on uneven beats: | 1 / 3 | 1 / 3 / | -- you can play pink floyd 'money' bassline over it, for example.
    I always thought that every meter having more than 4 of simple beats is a complex one - i.e. actually felt as several measures and accents define the virtual bar line placement. There is a very noticeable perceptional limit of 4 (so called 'magic number') -- brain easily grasps up to 4 objects at once, above that it has to build hierarchy by sub-grouping the objects. One can train to internalize it to a big extent - but the groupings seem to always be there, I definitely feel quintuplets as 3+2 or 2+3 playing them fast and even.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danil
    Continuing on OT.

    I'm struggling to understand the difference. The 'misra cala' video to me sounds like sort of 'cut-time' for a complex 3/4+4/4 with strokes on uneven beats: | 1 / 3 | 1 / 3 / | -- you can play pink floyd 'money' bassline over it, for example.
    I always thought that every meter having more than 4 of simple beats is a complex one - i.e. actually felt as several measures and accents define the virtual bar line placement. There is a very noticeable perceptional limit of 4 (so called 'magic number') -- brain easily grasps up to 4 objects at once, above that it has to build hierarchy by sub-grouping the objects. One can train to internalize it to a big extent - but the groupings seem to always be there, I definitely feel quintuplets as 3+2 or 2+3 playing them fast and even.
    Misra Chapu Tala is like a 7/8 broken down 4+3. Nothing terribly complicated on its own.

    BTW while Konnakol breaks things down to groupings of 2 and 3, we do in fact have an unaccented 5 ‘ta di gi ta Tom’ as well as 2+3 and 3+2

    Moving fluently between groups of 3 and 2 is an important skill to cultivate.

    The 5 thing above is about what you feel as an upbeat and downbeat in groupings of 5; so in this case we sing 5/4 over 5/8 instead of thinking about the 5/8 over 5/4(which rpjazzguitar is effectively doing with the 7); so we are thinking about how 5/4 feels over 5/8. What’s an upbeat and what’s a downbeat?

    This turns out to be a total headfuck. At least for me.
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-11-2020 at 01:56 PM.

  9. #58

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    Here’s some fun with quintuplets


    Just so you know; I really have to break this down to learn it and practice.... Quintuplets are very unfamiliar; I can just go for it much more with 16ths.

  10. #59

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    But to get back to bebop; I was just trying to make the point that some upbeats are structural to bebop phrases and aren’t felt as syncopations in the same way as they are in the Western canon.... This is true of all modern popular music actually.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Misra Chapu Tala is like a 7/8 broken down 4+3. Nothing terribly complicated on its own.

    The 5 thing above is about what you feel as an upbeat and downbeat in groupings of 5; so in this case we sing 5/4 over 5/8 instead of thinking about the 5/8 over 5/4(which rpjazzguitar is effectively doing with the 7); so we are thinking about what the upbeats of 5/4 are from the perspective of 5/8.

    This turns out to be a total headfuck. At least for me.
    yes, I'm passing out here: 'we sing 5/4 over 5/8 instead of thinking about the 5/8 over 5/4'
    Why not just 5/4 in an actual form of 2+3 or 3+2. I sort of understand playing 8ths makes the number of strokes even which may help mechanically. Playing half notes similarly constantly shifts accents similarly to playing halves over 3/4. But you mean something else probably?


    maybe to have a separate thread on the complex rhythms (although on its own it may not last)

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    But to get back to bebop; I was just trying to make the point that some upbeats are structural to bebop phrases and aren’t felt as syncopations in the same way as they are in the Western canon.... This is true of all modern popular music actually.
    That point has been put, maybe listener's ears are so fed up with the plain note placement, that syncopation becomes a new norm to the point of being unnoticed and in its absense everything sounds square and uninteresting. it is easy to imagine that the musicians with rythmic culture roots who played most started this

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    So your tip is - lean on the drummer?
    "Here's my tip for getting started playing odd meter without getting lost", is what I wrote.

    The tip is that acclimating to odd meter is much easier if the drummer is locked into the groove and stays with it.

    It becomes much harder if the rest of the rhythm section is struggling with it, or elaborating on it in ways which cross the groove.

    Over time, your ability to feel the odd meter independently will develop.

  14. #63

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    Finallly watched this .. So bebop is CP, Dizzy etc ... and "Modern" is Ornette Coleman and 60s Miles according to Christians opening statement. That is like 60 years ago .. alrighty then ??

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Finallly watched this .. So bebop is CP, Dizzy etc ... and "Modern" is Ornette Coleman and 60s Miles according to Christians opening statement. That is like 60 years ago .. alrighty then ??
    One young hip bass player in NYC, who's on many scenes, from trad to straightahead to whatever contemporary, told me Miles 2nd quintet is the main staple of modern jazz. That's where everyone is coming from, who wants to play 'modern'.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
    That’s nothing. What we call “modern English” is over 500 years old.

    We are talking about the “language” of jazz. Not about the style or genre. Or some jazz musician that once lived. What is taught in conservatories is very much rooted in the bebop language. Same for the language that is taught by Youtube teachers like Jens Larsen and Christiaan van Hemert. And is still spoken by all your favourite jazz musicians most likely. They may use a dialect, but it’s still the langauge.

    DB
    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    One young hip bass player in NYC, who's on many scenes, from trad to straightahead to whatever contemporary, told me Miles 2nd quintet is the main staple of modern jazz. That's where everyone is coming from, who wants to play 'modern'.
    That is the thing .. I have no problem with that just like I have no problem with all the Bach, Mozart and Beethoven concerts played daily around the world.


    What rubs me is just how it's worded. Bebop is modern language rubs me the wrong way

    Something like:
    Current day jazz performance is still heavily rooted in bebop would not bother me


    It's just semantics. The thing is I guess that I'm slowly starting to view jazz as a type of classical music*. Something niche with a strong tradition that is no longer part of the current zeitgeist.


    *Classical music is associated with a different orchestration and a different way to feel time, so not fitting here, but you know what I mean

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Misra Chapu Tala is like a 7/8 broken down 4+3. Nothing terribly complicated on its own.

    BTW while Konnakol breaks things down to groupings of 2 and 3, we do in fact have an unaccented 5 ‘ta di gi ta Tom’ as well as 2+3 and 3+2

    Moving fluently between groups of 3 and 2 is an important skill to cultivate.

    The 5 thing above is about what you feel as an upbeat and downbeat in groupings of 5; so in this case we sing 5/4 over 5/8 instead of thinking about the 5/8 over 5/4(which rpjazzguitar is effectively doing with the 7); so we are thinking about how 5/4 feels over 5/8. What’s an upbeat and what’s a downbeat?

    This turns out to be a total headfuck. At least for me.
    Wonder if India is where Messiaen got his triangle notation, where the triangle is 3 and the staple thing is 2. He used this as a visual cue for the conductor, as it does not appear in his solo piano music (most of the later stuff does not even bother to notate a meter)


  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    Yes the rhythmic language completely defines bop. But it’s not defined by the presence of syncopations, but their nature. Let me try and practically demonstrate why I think this.

    I can play a line that uses only note choices familiar from Bach melodies and if I give it the right rhythm it will be bop. But it has to be right rhythm. (And that bop rhythm furthermore will be distinct from prewar swing.)

    For instance compare the middle 8 of Night in Tunisia to the way Bach would write a line of running 8th notes in similar harmonic situation; bars 7-8 of the fugue in BWV1001 for example. (Give or take an Ab)

    So, Bach does not count as jazz because the rhythmic syntax even aside from the feel is completely different.

    Re: ‘syncopation’ in jazz Brad Mehldau puts it well:

    Carnegie 06 — Brad Mehldau

    this whole page is worth reading as are the others for their analysis but rather long. With regards to syncopations in Brahms music (Brahms for those who don’t know was a fan of syncopation and rhythmic displacement) he says:

    Syncopation in classical music operates by confounding our expectations when it withholds the emphasis on the downbeat. Swinging jazz music that emphasizes upbeats, though, is surely not one long act of withholding – the rhythmic pleasure of swing has a deeply satiating effect on the body. The reasons why swing feels good, quite simply, are different than the reasons that that passage of Brahms feels good. To speak about syncopation, as commentators long have done when describing jazz, is even misleading in as far as syncopationis a trope for rhythmic otherness. The accented upbeats so prevalent in jazz are not the Other – they are home base; they are part of jazz’s DNA. In a swinging 4/4 meter, we clap on beats two and four of the bar...

    This is really the essence of what bebop is to me. Lester hadn’t quite progressed to this step btw his music still favours downbeats over upbeats to some extent; Parker really perfected this and noone has really advanced beyond him rhythmically. They just play in 7 to hide it haha.

    Anyway, there is no jazz feeling or rhythmic syntax in Stravinky’s music at all as much as I love him. Karnatic music is vastly more rhythmically complex than Stravinsky - and has improvisation - and obviously isn’t jazz either.

    So if I can to some extent embellish Hep’s argument - Rhythmic complexity and syncopation is not what it is. There is actually an inherent linguistic aspect to authentic jazz (bop) rhythms. It’s not the syncopation it’s the nature and integrality of the syncopation.

    (It is a syntax (even if the feel is often different) that is common to other African Diaspora musics such as Cuban and Brazilian traditions. Andrew Scott Potter (bonsritmos) has demonstrated that here with Candomble rhythms.)
    Pity I can do only 1 like instead of 1000. My 10 cents:
    I’ve never liked Bird no matter how much I wanted to. I refer to Dizzy because he’s got such lyricism and is just as intellectual.
    Brings me to second point: to me the intellectualism is what makes bebop especially and jazz in general. It is the harmonic/rhythmic ‘see how far I can go’. Not meant negatively. Bebop drives this to its ultimate.
    What’s before? Coots’ “You go to my head” was written before modes in jazz, and in composition it’s just as fluid jumping from one tonality to another.
    What’s after? Bitches Brew!!!! IMHO as far from bop as Kanye West is from blues, which is the ground on which it stands.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danil
    yes, I'm passing out here: 'we sing 5/4 over 5/8 instead of thinking about the 5/8 over 5/4'
    Welcome to the wonderful world of Konnakol. And know that there’s 10 year olds in Chennai who can do this stuff without blinking ...

    Anyway it’s all a bit extra if you just want to play bop in a nice swing 5/4....

    Why not just 5/4 in an actual form of 2+3 or 3+2. I sort of understand playing 8ths makes the number of strokes even which may help mechanically. Playing half notes similarly constantly shifts accents similarly to playing halves over 3/4. But you mean something else probably?
    Yes the mathematical relationships are the same but the way you use the hands, the physical side of is different.... I can do this stuff in 5/4.

    It would be easier to see what I mean though demonstration. But there’s also a deeper side to this than the maths. There’s the way you feel it; which is what the exercise is actually about.

    According to my teacher, 5/8 is the hardest time signature to be free in. 5/4 is actually pretty easy by comparison.

    maybe to have a separate thread on the complex rhythms (although on its own it may not last)
    I’d be up for that.

  20. #69

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    Some of this seems unnecessarily complicated, or, perhaps, I'm just struggling with new vocabulary.

    In 5 or 7, you generally need to consider eighth notes. The groupings are typically combinations of downs and ups sometimes with varying accents.

    The most common for American players are the A section of Take Five and Mission Impossible. Xo oX oo Xo Xo. Or maybe Xx ox Xs X X (caps are more accented, Xs is short). But, if you listen to Cinco (above) you'll hear other patterns. Note that the piano and guitar are locked tight, but not playing the same thing. For that matter, the B section of Take Five is different.

    Exits and Flags is a well known Brazilian tune which feels like 5 quarter notes -- not much of a syncopated feel. Very different way of playing 5.

    To hear different versions of 7, check out Tacho (Hermeto Pascoal), Misturada aka Mixing (Airto), Buritizais (Chico Pinheiro). Tombo in 7/4 (Airto).

    For 5, try Estrella Do Mar (Jovino Santos Neto), Exits and Flags (Milton Nascimiento), No Balanco Do Jequibau (Mario Albanese), Tempestade (Chico Pinheiro). All different ways of playing it.

    To develop freedom within the odd meter just takes a lot of time playing the grooves. And, being able to play the Take Five pattern, for example, won't automatically enable you to play a different one. But, the skill does develop.

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV
    Wonder if India is where Messiaen got his triangle notation, where the triangle is 3 and the staple thing is 2. He used this as a visual cue for the conductor, as it does not appear in his solo piano music (most of the later stuff does not even bother to notate a meter)

    not sure - Messiaen was interested in Indian music wasn’t he?

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    "Here's my tip for getting started playing odd meter without getting lost", is what I wrote.

    The tip is that acclimating to odd meter is much easier if the drummer is locked into the groove and stays with it.

    It becomes much harder if the rest of the rhythm section is struggling with it, or elaborating on it in ways which cross the groove.

    Over time, your ability to feel the odd meter independently will develop.
    Well, if you have a good drummer then why not?

    But over the long term to become truly fluent in odd times you need to be able to play polyrhythms, odd rhythmic groupings and all sorts without losing one just as you try to in 4/4. That takes specific practice.

    One good way to do this is to internalise a rhythmic vocabulary over any given meter.

    So in general, my approach to this is - study it the way a drummer would. Which is why I am studying with a drummer.

  23. #72

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    There’s a video of a drummer doing 5 vs 4, then 6 vs 5, then 7 vs 6, then 8 vs 7. And maybe more. The Olympics of drumming


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Some of this seems unnecessarily complicated, or, perhaps, I'm just struggling with new vocabulary.

    In 5 or 7, you generally need to consider eighth notes. The groupings are typically combinations of downs and ups sometimes with varying accents.

    The most common for American players are the A section of Take Five and Mission Impossible. Xo oX oo Xo Xo. Or maybe Xx ox Xs X X (caps are more accented, Xs is short). But, if you listen to Cinco (above) you'll hear other patterns. Note that the piano and guitar are locked tight, but not playing the same thing. For that matter, the B section of Take Five is different.

    Exits and Flags is a well known Brazilian tune which feels like 5 quarter notes -- not much of a syncopated feel. Very different way of playing 5.

    To hear different versions of 7, check out Tacho (Hermeto Pascoal), Misturada aka Mixing (Airto), Buritizais (Chico Pinheiro). Tombo in 7/4 (Airto).

    For 5, try Estrella Do Mar (Jovino Santos Neto), Exits and Flags (Milton Nascimiento), No Balanco Do Jequibau (Mario Albanese), Tempestade (Chico Pinheiro). All different ways of playing it.

    To develop freedom within the odd meter just takes a lot of time playing the grooves. And, being able to play the Take Five pattern, for example, won't automatically enable you to play a different one. But, the skill does develop.
    I thought the upbeat/downbeat thing
    was an interesting perspective but I’m not sure if anyone quite catches my drift. Probably not explaining it very well.

    Anyway Konakol is a bit of a rabbit hole; it is however a very useful toolset. It has really little to do groove; it’s about mathematical grid time, over the past few millennia they’ve really taken it to the nth degree....

    But what I was actually interested in talking about was not odd time per se.

    In fact what I feel is that all jazz is in a sense ‘odd time’ in the sense that it’s all accents in groupings of 3 and 2. And of course Jimmy Raney and Tristano consciously practiced irregular groupings against the pulse even during the bop era.

    I’d rather hear someone play 4/4 creatively than struggle in 7/8. There’s only so much time.... as it were

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eck
    There’s a video of a drummer doing 5 vs 4, then 6 vs 5, then 7 vs 6, then 8 vs 7. And maybe more. The Olympics of drumming
    Thomas Lang is known for that .. Remember seeing a clinic with .. probably 15 years ago, where he demonstrated just that .. would play all sorts of x over y permutation in his hands vs. his feet (apart from had at least 3 different pedals in each side, so each foot could do bass drum, wood block and tambourine)


    This is just the basic pale 3 vs 4 version .. but all I could find as a quick search on your time, back in the day it was a 15-20 minute solo where he'd started with 3 vs 4 and ended doing all sorts of versions


  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I thought the upbeat/downbeat thing
    was an interesting perspective but I’m not sure if anyone quite catches my drift. Probably not explaining it very well.

    Anyway Konakol is a bit of a rabbit hole; it is however a very useful toolset. It has really little to do groove; it’s about mathematical grid time, over the past few millennia they’ve really taken it to the nth degree....

    But what I was actually interested in talking about was not odd time per se.

    In fact what I feel is that all jazz is in a sense ‘odd time’ in the sense that it’s all accents in groupings of 3 and 2. And of course Jimmy Raney and Tristano consciously practiced irregular groupings against the pulse even during the bop era.

    I’d rather hear someone play 4/4 creatively than struggle in 7/8. There’s only so much time.... as it were
    Some mastery of polyrhythms is desireable. Drummers aspire to it, commonly. But, I've played with multiple pro drummers who are inaccurate in their attempts to go "poly" and it leaves everybody else at sea, guessing as to where the beat is. With the best players there's no ambiguity, in my experience. That's one of the experiences motivating my comment about drummers.

    I've heard one well known drummer talk in detail about the process of playing a fill and being certain that you come back exactly on the original beat. As an aside, if your drummer or bassist (or you) are inaccurate, it may not be at all clear who is the responsible party. Maybe it's everybody. But, if you play with better players the problem may disappear.

    One thing that separates the able from the hopeful in odd meter is what seems to be an internal clock that ticks in the basic pulse no matter what is going on. It's analagous, in my mind at least, to recording with a click. If you want to be sure that you're on the beat, it may be helpful to make sure the click is plenty loud. When I hear a great band of players who have that kind of clock, the audience can be completely lost, but the players know exactly where the original pulse is, no matter how far into outer space they fly.

    Can it be built up? Probably like ear training. For many it's laborious but for some, not such a big deal. I heard one master drummer (A Modern Drummer poll winner) refer to another famous player as "not a natural musician" because he needed a lesson on how to play an odd meter. He couldn't just hear it and feel it. With the lesson, he got it.

    I don't know enough about it (and I'm not good enough at it) to offer advice on how to work on it. What I can say is that the main thing that helped me was a lot of repetition. Many hours of listening to odd meters and many more of playing odd meter tunes in groups.

    Which, inevitably, brings me to juggling.

    The Neuroscience of Juggling | Trading Atoms

    This article reports measurable changes in the brains of people who learn to juggle. Other work has indicated that it takes about 3 days of practice for the brain to make the necessary connections. That is, it seems impossible until the third day, when suddenly people (students in the experiment) can suddenly do it.

    I'd venture a guess that it's easier to juggle 3 or 4 objects than 5 or 7.