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  1. #51

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    My experience is that odd meters get much easier after enough repetition. The definition of "enough" varies from one player to the next, but, typically, it's a lot of time playing those grooves.

    Now and then, I've found analysis to be helpful. I can think of one Hermeto Pascoal tune where the "clave" of the melody is turned backwards in part of tune -- and it may be a little easier to play when you realize it.

    But, for the most part, it's a question of getting a feel for it via repetition.

    Some patterns are easier to feel than others. 7/4 tends to be easier than 5/4 for most players, although that can be flipped if the 5/4 is the Take Five rhythm or the Mission Impossible rhythm.

    You know it's working when you can get off the clave, omit the one, cross the bar lines and so forth - without getting lost.

    How do you tap your foot? In 7, you can tap 1 3 5 7 1 3 5 7. But, remember, the 7-1 interval is twice as fast as the others because there's no quarter note in between.

    Or you can tap seven half notes ... with the first bar having the strong beats on the downtap and the second bar having the strong beats on the uptap.

    Or don't tap at all.

    Whichever way you do it, it needs to be as automatic as tapping (however you prefer to tap) in 4/4.

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  3. #52

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    In Konnakol the Tala (analogous to meter) is given by the hands. You kind of count with the hands while you sing the rhythms. You don’t tap the foot.

    This is how you would do 7, for example


    There are some advantages to this... one is that it’s a bit easier to spot when you’ve messed up the timing. (At least that’s what I find.)

    Obviously not so easy to do this when playing guitar though lol. It’s a bit more like singing while you play the guitar?

    Any rhythmic independence stuff strengthens it. Konnakol is simply a well worked out system for dealing with these mathematical possibilities.

    I hear you about hearing 7 as a two bar figure with an downbeat side and an upbeat side. That is one way of feeling it, but isn’t quite what my teacher was talking about. When you feel it this way I suppose you are turning two bars of 7/8 into a 7/4 phrase. I have a tune that does this in the middle 8 actually, goes into 7/4 swing from a Balkan style short short long groove.

    What I find quite fun is the way bop scales work in 7/8, which relates to this amalgamation idea.
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-10-2020 at 05:40 AM.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    (continuing slightly OT)
    can you help me with this ....

    im feeling
    12312
    12312
    12312
    12123

    am I on the right track ?
    Hi I didn’t see this. Yes it does feel like that. More important to me is that the 2 accent in the 4th bar of 5/4 actually feels like more of an upbeat accent than the actual upbeats, the ‘2 ands’ he was playing in the earlier bars.

    (Also notice that it feels better to have that ‘2 and’ upbeat quite straight than to swing it? That’s the way Peter plays it. Interesting)

    The reason is because it is going against the 3+2 grouping of course. But that accent (and the one on 5) would be an upbeat/offbeat in either grouping if that makes sense? Because the downbeats would be on the start of the 2+3 or 3+2 grouping.

    On a psychological level you could say it’s simply setting up expectations and then subverting them, and if that isn’t a good description of jazz rhythm I don’t know what is really. (or any music for that matter...)

    Going back to 4/4... In classical music rhythms, those expectations are basically always downbeats, and any syncopations are subversions of the norm.

    In jazz and other African Diaspora musics, these expectations can include both upbeats and downbeats. Son clave is a familiar example of this.
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-10-2020 at 05:49 AM.

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    In Konnakol the Tala (analogous to meter) is given by the hands. You kind of count with the hands while you sing the rhythms. You don’t tap the foot.

    This is how you would do 7, for example


    There are some advantages to this... one is that it’s a bit easier to spot when you’ve messed up the timing. (At least that’s what I find.)

    Obviously not so easy to do this when playing guitar though lol. It’s a bit more like singing while you play the guitar?

    Any rhythmic independence stuff strengthens it. Konnakol is simply a well worked out system for dealing with these mathematical possibilities.

    I hear you about hearing 7 as a two bar figure with an downbeat side and an upbeat side. That is one way of feeling it, but isn’t quite what my teacher was talking about. When you feel it this way I suppose you are turning two bars of 7/8 into a 7/4 phrase. I have a tune that does this in the middle 8 actually, goes into 7/4 swing from a Balkan style short short long groove.

    What I find quite fun is the way bop scales work in 7/8, which relates to this amalgamation idea.
    Airto did a tune called Tombo In 7/4.

    There is a drum solo in which he grunts (maybe more of a bark, but certainly a guttural sound) the downs and ups, three of each.

    xoxoxo oxoxox oo

    That's useful for Samba in 7. It will help with Misturada (another of his tunes) as well.

    I watched the Misra Chapu video. It divides the 7 differently and I couldn't easily sing a typical 7/4 pattern over it because the accenting is so different. I understand that it's a time honored, effective and deep subject. Whether it is a more efficient way of building the skills you need to play odd meter jazz than simply jumping into the pool (by playing it for hours) is a question I'll leave alone.

    Here's my tip for getting started playing odd meter without getting lost.

    Make sure the drummer makes the straight groove audible at all times. If he goes careening off into outer space, so will you, at least until you've grown the brain tissue that allows you to hear the original pulse in a sea of conflicting noise.

    Here's a story.

    The first time I ever had to solo during a performance in 7/4, Edu Ribeiro (whose name you might know from his Grammy with Paquito D'Rivera as part of Trio Corrente) was the drummer. (I was a student). Edu was extremely kind and asked if there was anything he could do to help. I think he understood I was struggling with the 7. I said, initially thinking I was joking, that I would appreciate a loud cymbal hit on the one in every bar.

    There were two guitar players. The other player soloed right before me. He was a young guy named Scooter (hello, if you're reading this), who tore it up. He played a brilliant solo which I later transcribed because I liked it so much. He was playing electric.

    I was playing nylon and I knew there was absolutely no way that I could follow him playing my slowhand single note style.

    The tune was Buritizais. 7/4 at around 232 bpm. The solo section is an 4 bar vamp with some atypical harmony. I decided to do it by playing one chord per bar for 3 bars and a couple chords in the 4th bar -- with the most interesting voicings I could manage. I started doing it and in bar 2 I heard Edu's cymbal crash. He kept that up for the entire solo. All 20 or so notes. And it helped. It would have helped even more if I'd tried to go away from the obvious down down down up up up.

    Scooter was very complimentary afterward, although I assume he was being kind.

    Edu has educational videos, in English, on youtube. I recommend everything he does. Brilliant player (up for at least one more Grammy this year, with Chico Pinheiro, who is nominated for City of Dreams) great teacher, very generous and caring person.

    Check this one out, for example.


  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Airto did a tune called Tombo In 7/4.

    There is a drum solo in which he grunts (maybe more of a bark, but certainly a guttural sound) the downs and ups, three of each.

    xoxoxo oxoxox oo

    That's useful for Samba in 7. It will help with Misturada (another of his tunes) as well.

    I watched the Misra Chapu video. It divides the 7 differently and I couldn't easily sing a typical 7/4 pattern over it because the accenting is so different. I understand that it's a time honored, effective and deep subject. Whether it is a more efficient way of building the skills you need to play odd meter jazz than simply jumping into the pool (by playing it for hours) is a question I'll leave alone.

    Here's my tip for getting started playing odd meter without getting lost.

    Make sure the drummer makes the straight groove audible at all times. If he goes careening off into outer space, so will you, at least until you've grown the brain tissue that allows you to hear the original pulse in a sea of conflicting noise.

    Here's a story.

    The first time I ever had to solo during a performance in 7/4, Edu Ribeiro (whose name you might know from his Grammy with Paquito D'Rivera as part of Trio Corrente) was the drummer. (I was a student). Edu was extremely kind and asked if there was anything he could do to help. I think he understood I was struggling with the 7. I said, initially thinking I was joking, that I would appreciate a loud cymbal hit on the one in every bar.
    So your tip is - lean on the drummer?

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I hear you about hearing 7 as a two bar figure with an downbeat side and an upbeat side. That is one way of feeling it, but isn’t quite what my teacher was talking about. When you feel it this way I suppose you are turning two bars of 7/8 into a 7/4 phrase. I have a tune that does this in the middle 8 actually, goes into 7/4 swing from a Balkan style short short long groove.
    Continuing on OT.

    I'm struggling to understand the difference. The 'misra cala' video to me sounds like sort of 'cut-time' for a complex 3/4+4/4 with strokes on uneven beats: | 1 / 3 | 1 / 3 / | -- you can play pink floyd 'money' bassline over it, for example.
    I always thought that every meter having more than 4 of simple beats is a complex one - i.e. actually felt as several measures and accents define the virtual bar line placement. There is a very noticeable perceptional limit of 4 (so called 'magic number') -- brain easily grasps up to 4 objects at once, above that it has to build hierarchy by sub-grouping the objects. One can train to internalize it to a big extent - but the groupings seem to always be there, I definitely feel quintuplets as 3+2 or 2+3 playing them fast and even.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danil
    Continuing on OT.

    I'm struggling to understand the difference. The 'misra cala' video to me sounds like sort of 'cut-time' for a complex 3/4+4/4 with strokes on uneven beats: | 1 / 3 | 1 / 3 / | -- you can play pink floyd 'money' bassline over it, for example.
    I always thought that every meter having more than 4 of simple beats is a complex one - i.e. actually felt as several measures and accents define the virtual bar line placement. There is a very noticeable perceptional limit of 4 (so called 'magic number') -- brain easily grasps up to 4 objects at once, above that it has to build hierarchy by sub-grouping the objects. One can train to internalize it to a big extent - but the groupings seem to always be there, I definitely feel quintuplets as 3+2 or 2+3 playing them fast and even.
    Misra Chapu Tala is like a 7/8 broken down 4+3. Nothing terribly complicated on its own.

    BTW while Konnakol breaks things down to groupings of 2 and 3, we do in fact have an unaccented 5 ‘ta di gi ta Tom’ as well as 2+3 and 3+2

    Moving fluently between groups of 3 and 2 is an important skill to cultivate.

    The 5 thing above is about what you feel as an upbeat and downbeat in groupings of 5; so in this case we sing 5/4 over 5/8 instead of thinking about the 5/8 over 5/4(which rpjazzguitar is effectively doing with the 7); so we are thinking about how 5/4 feels over 5/8. What’s an upbeat and what’s a downbeat?

    This turns out to be a total headfuck. At least for me.
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-11-2020 at 01:56 PM.

  9. #58

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    Here’s some fun with quintuplets


    Just so you know; I really have to break this down to learn it and practice.... Quintuplets are very unfamiliar; I can just go for it much more with 16ths.

  10. #59

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    But to get back to bebop; I was just trying to make the point that some upbeats are structural to bebop phrases and aren’t felt as syncopations in the same way as they are in the Western canon.... This is true of all modern popular music actually.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Misra Chapu Tala is like a 7/8 broken down 4+3. Nothing terribly complicated on its own.

    The 5 thing above is about what you feel as an upbeat and downbeat in groupings of 5; so in this case we sing 5/4 over 5/8 instead of thinking about the 5/8 over 5/4(which rpjazzguitar is effectively doing with the 7); so we are thinking about what the upbeats of 5/4 are from the perspective of 5/8.

    This turns out to be a total headfuck. At least for me.
    yes, I'm passing out here: 'we sing 5/4 over 5/8 instead of thinking about the 5/8 over 5/4'
    Why not just 5/4 in an actual form of 2+3 or 3+2. I sort of understand playing 8ths makes the number of strokes even which may help mechanically. Playing half notes similarly constantly shifts accents similarly to playing halves over 3/4. But you mean something else probably?


    maybe to have a separate thread on the complex rhythms (although on its own it may not last)

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    But to get back to bebop; I was just trying to make the point that some upbeats are structural to bebop phrases and aren’t felt as syncopations in the same way as they are in the Western canon.... This is true of all modern popular music actually.
    That point has been put, maybe listener's ears are so fed up with the plain note placement, that syncopation becomes a new norm to the point of being unnoticed and in its absense everything sounds square and uninteresting. it is easy to imagine that the musicians with rythmic culture roots who played most started this

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    So your tip is - lean on the drummer?
    "Here's my tip for getting started playing odd meter without getting lost", is what I wrote.

    The tip is that acclimating to odd meter is much easier if the drummer is locked into the groove and stays with it.

    It becomes much harder if the rest of the rhythm section is struggling with it, or elaborating on it in ways which cross the groove.

    Over time, your ability to feel the odd meter independently will develop.

  14. #63

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    Finallly watched this .. So bebop is CP, Dizzy etc ... and "Modern" is Ornette Coleman and 60s Miles according to Christians opening statement. That is like 60 years ago .. alrighty then ??

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Finallly watched this .. So bebop is CP, Dizzy etc ... and "Modern" is Ornette Coleman and 60s Miles according to Christians opening statement. That is like 60 years ago .. alrighty then ??
    One young hip bass player in NYC, who's on many scenes, from trad to straightahead to whatever contemporary, told me Miles 2nd quintet is the main staple of modern jazz. That's where everyone is coming from, who wants to play 'modern'.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
    That’s nothing. What we call “modern English” is over 500 years old.

    We are talking about the “language” of jazz. Not about the style or genre. Or some jazz musician that once lived. What is taught in conservatories is very much rooted in the bebop language. Same for the language that is taught by Youtube teachers like Jens Larsen and Christiaan van Hemert. And is still spoken by all your favourite jazz musicians most likely. They may use a dialect, but it’s still the langauge.

    DB
    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    One young hip bass player in NYC, who's on many scenes, from trad to straightahead to whatever contemporary, told me Miles 2nd quintet is the main staple of modern jazz. That's where everyone is coming from, who wants to play 'modern'.
    That is the thing .. I have no problem with that just like I have no problem with all the Bach, Mozart and Beethoven concerts played daily around the world.


    What rubs me is just how it's worded. Bebop is modern language rubs me the wrong way

    Something like:
    Current day jazz performance is still heavily rooted in bebop would not bother me


    It's just semantics. The thing is I guess that I'm slowly starting to view jazz as a type of classical music*. Something niche with a strong tradition that is no longer part of the current zeitgeist.


    *Classical music is associated with a different orchestration and a different way to feel time, so not fitting here, but you know what I mean

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Misra Chapu Tala is like a 7/8 broken down 4+3. Nothing terribly complicated on its own.

    BTW while Konnakol breaks things down to groupings of 2 and 3, we do in fact have an unaccented 5 ‘ta di gi ta Tom’ as well as 2+3 and 3+2

    Moving fluently between groups of 3 and 2 is an important skill to cultivate.

    The 5 thing above is about what you feel as an upbeat and downbeat in groupings of 5; so in this case we sing 5/4 over 5/8 instead of thinking about the 5/8 over 5/4(which rpjazzguitar is effectively doing with the 7); so we are thinking about how 5/4 feels over 5/8. What’s an upbeat and what’s a downbeat?

    This turns out to be a total headfuck. At least for me.
    Wonder if India is where Messiaen got his triangle notation, where the triangle is 3 and the staple thing is 2. He used this as a visual cue for the conductor, as it does not appear in his solo piano music (most of the later stuff does not even bother to notate a meter)


  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    Yes the rhythmic language completely defines bop. But it’s not defined by the presence of syncopations, but their nature. Let me try and practically demonstrate why I think this.

    I can play a line that uses only note choices familiar from Bach melodies and if I give it the right rhythm it will be bop. But it has to be right rhythm. (And that bop rhythm furthermore will be distinct from prewar swing.)

    For instance compare the middle 8 of Night in Tunisia to the way Bach would write a line of running 8th notes in similar harmonic situation; bars 7-8 of the fugue in BWV1001 for example. (Give or take an Ab)

    So, Bach does not count as jazz because the rhythmic syntax even aside from the feel is completely different.

    Re: ‘syncopation’ in jazz Brad Mehldau puts it well:

    Carnegie 06 — Brad Mehldau

    this whole page is worth reading as are the others for their analysis but rather long. With regards to syncopations in Brahms music (Brahms for those who don’t know was a fan of syncopation and rhythmic displacement) he says:

    Syncopation in classical music operates by confounding our expectations when it withholds the emphasis on the downbeat. Swinging jazz music that emphasizes upbeats, though, is surely not one long act of withholding – the rhythmic pleasure of swing has a deeply satiating effect on the body. The reasons why swing feels good, quite simply, are different than the reasons that that passage of Brahms feels good. To speak about syncopation, as commentators long have done when describing jazz, is even misleading in as far as syncopationis a trope for rhythmic otherness. The accented upbeats so prevalent in jazz are not the Other – they are home base; they are part of jazz’s DNA. In a swinging 4/4 meter, we clap on beats two and four of the bar...

    This is really the essence of what bebop is to me. Lester hadn’t quite progressed to this step btw his music still favours downbeats over upbeats to some extent; Parker really perfected this and noone has really advanced beyond him rhythmically. They just play in 7 to hide it haha.

    Anyway, there is no jazz feeling or rhythmic syntax in Stravinky’s music at all as much as I love him. Karnatic music is vastly more rhythmically complex than Stravinsky - and has improvisation - and obviously isn’t jazz either.

    So if I can to some extent embellish Hep’s argument - Rhythmic complexity and syncopation is not what it is. There is actually an inherent linguistic aspect to authentic jazz (bop) rhythms. It’s not the syncopation it’s the nature and integrality of the syncopation.

    (It is a syntax (even if the feel is often different) that is common to other African Diaspora musics such as Cuban and Brazilian traditions. Andrew Scott Potter (bonsritmos) has demonstrated that here with Candomble rhythms.)
    Pity I can do only 1 like instead of 1000. My 10 cents:
    I’ve never liked Bird no matter how much I wanted to. I refer to Dizzy because he’s got such lyricism and is just as intellectual.
    Brings me to second point: to me the intellectualism is what makes bebop especially and jazz in general. It is the harmonic/rhythmic ‘see how far I can go’. Not meant negatively. Bebop drives this to its ultimate.
    What’s before? Coots’ “You go to my head” was written before modes in jazz, and in composition it’s just as fluid jumping from one tonality to another.
    What’s after? Bitches Brew!!!! IMHO as far from bop as Kanye West is from blues, which is the ground on which it stands.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danil
    yes, I'm passing out here: 'we sing 5/4 over 5/8 instead of thinking about the 5/8 over 5/4'
    Welcome to the wonderful world of Konnakol. And know that there’s 10 year olds in Chennai who can do this stuff without blinking ...

    Anyway it’s all a bit extra if you just want to play bop in a nice swing 5/4....

    Why not just 5/4 in an actual form of 2+3 or 3+2. I sort of understand playing 8ths makes the number of strokes even which may help mechanically. Playing half notes similarly constantly shifts accents similarly to playing halves over 3/4. But you mean something else probably?
    Yes the mathematical relationships are the same but the way you use the hands, the physical side of is different.... I can do this stuff in 5/4.

    It would be easier to see what I mean though demonstration. But there’s also a deeper side to this than the maths. There’s the way you feel it; which is what the exercise is actually about.

    According to my teacher, 5/8 is the hardest time signature to be free in. 5/4 is actually pretty easy by comparison.

    maybe to have a separate thread on the complex rhythms (although on its own it may not last)
    I’d be up for that.

  20. #69

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    Some of this seems unnecessarily complicated, or, perhaps, I'm just struggling with new vocabulary.

    In 5 or 7, you generally need to consider eighth notes. The groupings are typically combinations of downs and ups sometimes with varying accents.

    The most common for American players are the A section of Take Five and Mission Impossible. Xo oX oo Xo Xo. Or maybe Xx ox Xs X X (caps are more accented, Xs is short). But, if you listen to Cinco (above) you'll hear other patterns. Note that the piano and guitar are locked tight, but not playing the same thing. For that matter, the B section of Take Five is different.

    Exits and Flags is a well known Brazilian tune which feels like 5 quarter notes -- not much of a syncopated feel. Very different way of playing 5.

    To hear different versions of 7, check out Tacho (Hermeto Pascoal), Misturada aka Mixing (Airto), Buritizais (Chico Pinheiro). Tombo in 7/4 (Airto).

    For 5, try Estrella Do Mar (Jovino Santos Neto), Exits and Flags (Milton Nascimiento), No Balanco Do Jequibau (Mario Albanese), Tempestade (Chico Pinheiro). All different ways of playing it.

    To develop freedom within the odd meter just takes a lot of time playing the grooves. And, being able to play the Take Five pattern, for example, won't automatically enable you to play a different one. But, the skill does develop.

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV
    Wonder if India is where Messiaen got his triangle notation, where the triangle is 3 and the staple thing is 2. He used this as a visual cue for the conductor, as it does not appear in his solo piano music (most of the later stuff does not even bother to notate a meter)

    not sure - Messiaen was interested in Indian music wasn’t he?

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    "Here's my tip for getting started playing odd meter without getting lost", is what I wrote.

    The tip is that acclimating to odd meter is much easier if the drummer is locked into the groove and stays with it.

    It becomes much harder if the rest of the rhythm section is struggling with it, or elaborating on it in ways which cross the groove.

    Over time, your ability to feel the odd meter independently will develop.
    Well, if you have a good drummer then why not?

    But over the long term to become truly fluent in odd times you need to be able to play polyrhythms, odd rhythmic groupings and all sorts without losing one just as you try to in 4/4. That takes specific practice.

    One good way to do this is to internalise a rhythmic vocabulary over any given meter.

    So in general, my approach to this is - study it the way a drummer would. Which is why I am studying with a drummer.

  23. #72

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    There’s a video of a drummer doing 5 vs 4, then 6 vs 5, then 7 vs 6, then 8 vs 7. And maybe more. The Olympics of drumming


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Some of this seems unnecessarily complicated, or, perhaps, I'm just struggling with new vocabulary.

    In 5 or 7, you generally need to consider eighth notes. The groupings are typically combinations of downs and ups sometimes with varying accents.

    The most common for American players are the A section of Take Five and Mission Impossible. Xo oX oo Xo Xo. Or maybe Xx ox Xs X X (caps are more accented, Xs is short). But, if you listen to Cinco (above) you'll hear other patterns. Note that the piano and guitar are locked tight, but not playing the same thing. For that matter, the B section of Take Five is different.

    Exits and Flags is a well known Brazilian tune which feels like 5 quarter notes -- not much of a syncopated feel. Very different way of playing 5.

    To hear different versions of 7, check out Tacho (Hermeto Pascoal), Misturada aka Mixing (Airto), Buritizais (Chico Pinheiro). Tombo in 7/4 (Airto).

    For 5, try Estrella Do Mar (Jovino Santos Neto), Exits and Flags (Milton Nascimiento), No Balanco Do Jequibau (Mario Albanese), Tempestade (Chico Pinheiro). All different ways of playing it.

    To develop freedom within the odd meter just takes a lot of time playing the grooves. And, being able to play the Take Five pattern, for example, won't automatically enable you to play a different one. But, the skill does develop.
    I thought the upbeat/downbeat thing
    was an interesting perspective but I’m not sure if anyone quite catches my drift. Probably not explaining it very well.

    Anyway Konakol is a bit of a rabbit hole; it is however a very useful toolset. It has really little to do groove; it’s about mathematical grid time, over the past few millennia they’ve really taken it to the nth degree....

    But what I was actually interested in talking about was not odd time per se.

    In fact what I feel is that all jazz is in a sense ‘odd time’ in the sense that it’s all accents in groupings of 3 and 2. And of course Jimmy Raney and Tristano consciously practiced irregular groupings against the pulse even during the bop era.

    I’d rather hear someone play 4/4 creatively than struggle in 7/8. There’s only so much time.... as it were

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eck
    There’s a video of a drummer doing 5 vs 4, then 6 vs 5, then 7 vs 6, then 8 vs 7. And maybe more. The Olympics of drumming
    Thomas Lang is known for that .. Remember seeing a clinic with .. probably 15 years ago, where he demonstrated just that .. would play all sorts of x over y permutation in his hands vs. his feet (apart from had at least 3 different pedals in each side, so each foot could do bass drum, wood block and tambourine)


    This is just the basic pale 3 vs 4 version .. but all I could find as a quick search on your time, back in the day it was a 15-20 minute solo where he'd started with 3 vs 4 and ended doing all sorts of versions


  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I thought the upbeat/downbeat thing
    was an interesting perspective but I’m not sure if anyone quite catches my drift. Probably not explaining it very well.

    Anyway Konakol is a bit of a rabbit hole; it is however a very useful toolset. It has really little to do groove; it’s about mathematical grid time, over the past few millennia they’ve really taken it to the nth degree....

    But what I was actually interested in talking about was not odd time per se.

    In fact what I feel is that all jazz is in a sense ‘odd time’ in the sense that it’s all accents in groupings of 3 and 2. And of course Jimmy Raney and Tristano consciously practiced irregular groupings against the pulse even during the bop era.

    I’d rather hear someone play 4/4 creatively than struggle in 7/8. There’s only so much time.... as it were
    Some mastery of polyrhythms is desireable. Drummers aspire to it, commonly. But, I've played with multiple pro drummers who are inaccurate in their attempts to go "poly" and it leaves everybody else at sea, guessing as to where the beat is. With the best players there's no ambiguity, in my experience. That's one of the experiences motivating my comment about drummers.

    I've heard one well known drummer talk in detail about the process of playing a fill and being certain that you come back exactly on the original beat. As an aside, if your drummer or bassist (or you) are inaccurate, it may not be at all clear who is the responsible party. Maybe it's everybody. But, if you play with better players the problem may disappear.

    One thing that separates the able from the hopeful in odd meter is what seems to be an internal clock that ticks in the basic pulse no matter what is going on. It's analagous, in my mind at least, to recording with a click. If you want to be sure that you're on the beat, it may be helpful to make sure the click is plenty loud. When I hear a great band of players who have that kind of clock, the audience can be completely lost, but the players know exactly where the original pulse is, no matter how far into outer space they fly.

    Can it be built up? Probably like ear training. For many it's laborious but for some, not such a big deal. I heard one master drummer (A Modern Drummer poll winner) refer to another famous player as "not a natural musician" because he needed a lesson on how to play an odd meter. He couldn't just hear it and feel it. With the lesson, he got it.

    I don't know enough about it (and I'm not good enough at it) to offer advice on how to work on it. What I can say is that the main thing that helped me was a lot of repetition. Many hours of listening to odd meters and many more of playing odd meter tunes in groups.

    Which, inevitably, brings me to juggling.

    The Neuroscience of Juggling | Trading Atoms

    This article reports measurable changes in the brains of people who learn to juggle. Other work has indicated that it takes about 3 days of practice for the brain to make the necessary connections. That is, it seems impossible until the third day, when suddenly people (students in the experiment) can suddenly do it.

    I'd venture a guess that it's easier to juggle 3 or 4 objects than 5 or 7.

  27. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eck
    There’s a video of a drummer doing 5 vs 4, then 6 vs 5, then 7 vs 6, then 8 vs 7. And maybe more. The Olympics of drumming


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    It's just maths. It's a matter of arithmetic to break it all down and then you just need practice it.

    If you can be arsed :-)

  28. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    It's just maths. It's a matter of arithmetic to break it all down and then you just need practice it.
    For me at a certain point maths takes over from music. That’s why I prefer Dizzie over Charlie. However Bitches Brew does seem to require maths for the counts and it is so expressive, a bit like Varese. And all very far from bop.


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  29. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Some mastery of polyrhythms is desireable.
    Well yes, in the sense that if you can't accurately hear and play 3 on 4, or 6 on 4, you won't be able swing.

    Some learn this intuitively; they might not necessarily know what that is intellectually, but just be able to play it. You can find these nuances in traditional West African rhythms, for example, so it's not really a maths thing per se?

    But if you haven't grown up in a rhythmic culture, it's useful to have a way to practice it.

    OTOH if you grew up in some parts Eastern Europe, 7 and 11/8 might feel natural.

    But - this is the rub. 7/8 is actually pretty natural. The problem comes when you want to, as a jazz musician have a little bit of those West African style polyrhythms in 7... because otherwise you are sort of locked into the pattern and can't swing. So, you go to the maths and practice your quarter triplet on 7/8 or whatever. You need to find a way to break it down until it becomes intuitive... (Not that I have been able to do this lol, but part of my homework is quarter triplets on 5/8, so I should be able to do it soon)

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eck
    For me at a certain point maths takes over from music. That’s why I prefer Dizzie over Charlie. However Bitches Brew does seem to require maths for the counts and it is so expressive, a bit like Varese. And all very far from bop.


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    Salseros teach polyrhythms with language.

    This video isn't salsa oriented but explains the ideas quite well.



    Don't miss the demo on acoustic guitar at the end.

    You can be playing 3 in one hand and 4 in the other in a minute.

    It's harder to do with counting.

    You'll see it in the video.

  31. #80

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    What I referred to with respect to the desireability of some skill with polyrhythms is that, sooner or later, you'll be in a band situation where it starts to happen. And you will need the ability to do two things at once -- have that clock going in your head while you play (or listen to) something else. For most of us, that's going to require some practice.

    Swing feel, at least for those of us who grew up with swing, is so natural that it seems effortless by comparison, although I know that different people experience that to different degrees.

    I do recall a lesson in which the teacher recommended being able to play eighth, quarter or half note triplets at any time in 4/4. He recommended practicing it "so you'll have it when you need it". Excellent advice, depending, of course, on what you're trying to do.

    I play in a big band that has quite a few charts in 6/8 at brisk tempi. Mostly, you feel the pulse in 2 (dotted quarters), with a triplet (aka 3 eighths) on each of those beats. The leader even counts them off in dotted quarters. BUT, the bar may be divided into three parts (or uneven parts), so you need instant access to 3 over 2. That one isn't so difficult to master, but I found it confusing the first time I encountered it.

    An example at the risk of too much detail: tap R l r L r l. That's sixth eighths with the accents felt as 2 over 6. So, the accent changes hands. Then do R l R l R l. The accent doesn't change hands. Neither one is difficult. With enough repetition it becomes an available skill to go back and forth.

  32. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Salseros teach polyrhythms with language.

    This video isn't salsa oriented but explains the ideas quite well.



    Don't miss the demo on acoustic guitar at the end.

    You can be playing 3 in one hand and 4 in the other in a minute.

    It's harder to do with counting.

    You'll see it in the video.
    I like exercising 3 vs 4 - I did start my life as classical pianist. 5 vs 4 is fun too. Especially tapping alternating bars. But I wouldn’t bother with higher orders, I don’t know any song that successfully does 6 vs 7. When I say vs I mean simultaneously, preferably by the same person. A song written in 7 or 11 quarter notes is fine. I think Music Evolution is wicked!


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  33. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV
    Wonder if India is where Messiaen got his triangle notation, where the triangle is 3 and the staple thing is 2. He used this as a visual cue for the conductor, as it does not appear in his solo piano music (most of the later stuff does not even bother to notate a meter)

    That’s a great piece! I quite liked Le Beuf sur le Toit and used to listen to it daily.


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  34. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Miles and Herbie and Wayne and Trane and Wes and Horace Silver and Jimmy Smith and Benson et al already did that. They could all play bebop but it wasn't enough for them. They had a broader vision. Thank God. People can play only bebop if they want; people can never play bebop if they want; people can play some of it and some of other things too if they want.

    I mean, the most often chosen 'greatest jazz album' is "Kind Of Blue", which isn't bebop at all. Is "A Love Supreme" bebop? Is "Better Get It In Your Soul" bebop? Is "West Coast Blues" or "Road Song" bebop? Is "Moanin'" bebop? Is "Song For My Father" bebop? Is "Maiden Voyage" bebop? "Impressions"? "Take Five"?
    late to the party:

    hi mark

    none of these things ARE be-bop you're right - but all of them feature be-bop language. more than that - all of them feature more be-bop language than any other single 'bag' too. (maybe that's not true of Love Supreme - but it might well be.)

  35. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eck
    I like exercising 3 vs 4 - I did start my life as classical pianist. 5 vs 4 is fun too. Especially tapping alternating bars. But I wouldn’t bother with higher orders, I don’t know any song that successfully does 6 vs 7. When I say vs I mean simultaneously, preferably by the same person. A song written in 7 or 11 quarter notes is fine. I think Music Evolution is wicked!


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    Lots of 3:4 in the classical canon. Brahms springs to kind.

    if you want to get that swinging flavour, try the Bembe bell pattern over swing.

    Also, great way to practice fast bop tempos. Tap your foot in 2, and play in 6/8 (quarter triplets) - after doing this until you can lock in. Then, move back to 8ths.

    It will feel completely different.

    In terms of more complicated rhythms that’s getting more into the modern jazz odd meter/polymeter stuff. 5:4 is quite common, higher polyrhythms might find use as metrical modulations.

    Mind you don’t you get 5:4 in Chopin?

  36. #85

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    I'm starting to get the picture. Learn the language and run with it. But sometimes I feel like bebop in its true form never attracted me. I do prefer more groove oriented sub genres of jazz , even though soloists would use bebop language
    So in a funny way, to paraphrase a popular accordion joke, wouldn't it be true, a definition of a modern jazz player- 'someone who can play bebop, but doesn't'?

  37. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    I'm starting to get the picture. Learn the language and run with it. But sometimes I feel like bebop in its true form never attracted me. I do prefer more groove oriented sub genres of jazz , even though soloists would use bebop language
    So in a funny way, to paraphrase a popular accordion joke, wouldn't it be true, a definition of a modern jazz player- 'someone who can play bebop, but doesn't'?
    Maybe; although I wonder if it isn’t a phase go through. I doubt Dave Douglas can play bop like he did when he was 20. And back then he was an incredible bop player. Mehldau too....

  38. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Yeah, I think everyone is aware of Bop, and can kinda Bop a little, but I don't hear many players on any instrument that sound great at it. Most seem to mix it in with other stuff, which is probably why it's still around in any form...?
    some guys sound really great at it. I can't get over how great Chad LB sounds for example - and I don't know who this piano player and bass player are but I'm a bit in love with both of them. (what a piano solo - what a great relaxed but pushing/tipping feel on the bass)



    I just had the great good fortune to hang out and play for a couple of years with a great New York bass player who is always busy in NYC when he's not living in Addis Ababa. the picture he paints of the scene/culture there is that pure glorious be-bop is very much loved by very many very serious players. Chad in his Standards Sessions seems to me to be doing this as well as anyone has ever done it. He seems right up there with Hank Mobley, Dexter and Sonny - and I just can't believe I'm saying that. The amount of music he is making happen here strongly suggests to me that it's the language he's using that really counts.

    it seems to me to have more bite and intensity than any other form - it seems to me fresher and edgier and more surprising and dangerous and much more articulate than any other form.

    I just discovered a new record full of recordings of Bird that I hadn't heard before - I think it came out this year but I don't seem to be able to find out much about it. (It's called unhelpfully 'out of nowhere') I managed to find this take from it on YouTube - but on TIDAL I get a whole beautiful album. Here's a taste.



    Just the way he combines the sweetness of the ballad playing and the fury of the uptempo flourish at the end is so creative. not to mention his astonishing clarity of musical thought. The only thing that matches how articulate and intelligent he is, is how playful he is. This is unrepeatable playing - but Chad LB shows on his own - it seems to me - that its the 'language' that really counts. He's not as articulate as natural or as playful as Parker, but he generates a whole lot of poke through his profound mastery of the language. (don't you think?)

    It's parker's language more than any one else's - and he certainly speaks it more brilliantly than anyone else - but its such a fabulous language that just learning to use it competently promises huge musical rewards. (Greater rewards - it seems to me - than anything I could gain from trying to get away from it). Since I first heard Parker and Bud Powell and fell for the music I have always felt strongly that by far the most obvious place to find the real musical juice is in this playing - because none of the forms that have followed (but if Christian McBride is right have not superseded it) have been so good at enabling such articulate playing - such clarity of musical thought and such intelligent playfulness. So it doesn't seem like a reactionary or conservative stance to me - because I hear more that's unexplored and undeveloped in Parker than I do in say later Coltrane, or Wes, and certainly in Henderson or Shorter. (Early Ornette does it for me - but its as fabulous as it is because of the way it takes up the language - not because it changes it significantly or leaves it behind.)

    There's no other jazz language that is 'still' modern language. I think that's because we haven't yet found a better musical framework to use to express ourselves. Chad LB, Benny Benack and perhaps best of all Veronica Swift make it clear that be-bop works as well now for the most talented young musicians as a medium for musical self expression as it did in the forties and fifties.


  39. #88

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    Bebop now is classical music.

  40. #89

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    can't resist sharing this too - since the topic is be-bop language. wow.


  41. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Bebop now is classical music.

    but rather groovier

  42. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    can't resist sharing this too - since the topic is be-bop language. wow.

    Yea, good stuff. Saxophone is almost ideal instrument for bebop soloing. Which begs the question why would anybody choose guitar if they fell in love with bebop? Learning the language on guitar sometimes feels like pissing against the wind.

    Players like Sco or Mike Stern, or Bill Frisell, obviously came influenced by rock/blues/pop and brought that language to jazz and mixed with bebop language and it came out beautifully. For me that what makes jazz guitar interesting. Strangely, the next generation mostly didnt follow that path.

    Who are the purely bebop guitarists past and present?

  43. #92

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    Billy frickin Bean ;-)

  44. #93

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    pasquale grasso deserves a mention perhaps?

    but otherwise Jimmy Raney?

    there are big phrasing issues with guitar - just had a discussion about that on an earlier thread - you can't let the 'positions' dictate when you change string you have to find ways to get good phrasing by constantly going out of 'position'.

    it does feel like pissing into the wind sometimes - but if you love the guitar and you love the bebop language what can you do?

  45. #94

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  46. #95

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    bass players can do pretty well with it and their instrument is a bit like ours

    the bass solo on the take of out of nowhere just posted is a treat

  47. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    bass players can do pretty well with it and their instrument is a bit like ours

    the bass solo on the take of out of nowhere just posted is a treat
    this cello solo is the first jazz solo i ever transcribed.

  48. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    doug raney, rene thomas
    How would you call players like MVI, JVR, Ulf Wakenius, Bireli to distinguish them from the Raneys for example? How about Wes and Herb? Not bop?

    DB

  49. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    late to the party:

    hi mark

    none of these things ARE be-bop you're right - but all of them feature be-bop language. more than that - all of them feature more be-bop language than any other single 'bag' too. (maybe that's not true of Love Supreme - but it might well be.)
    Hi, Groyniad. Long time, no sea. Season's greetings.

    I suppose it hinges on what counts as a single bag. For example, when fusion came along and some jazz players reacted against it and instead played "straight-ahead" (Wynton Marsalis is a name much associated with this), walking bass lines were prominent. Those predate bop. When one hears the name Wynton Marsalis today, or Jazz at Lincoln Center, does one think first of bebop? I don't, but your mileage may vary.

    If someone were to call the Modern Jazz Quartet or Weather Report bebop groups on the ground that they play more bebop language than anything else, it would be farcical.

    For that matter, Christian McBride isn't primarily a bebop player (though he can play bebop.)
    This is from his recent big band album, "For Jimmy, Wes and Oliver." (That's Jimmy Smith, Wes Montgomery and Oliver Nelson, all great players but none of whom strike me as bebop players. Again, your mileage may vary on that.)




    That's Mark Whitfield on guitar.

    Then there's blues language, which predates bebop. George Benson has said that Jack McDuff taught him to put some blues in everything he played. For McDuff, blues was the universal musical language. There was a lot of blues in Charlie Parker's language, for that matter.

    Didn't Barry Harris say that the music of Wayne Shorter and Herbie Hancock stopped being jazz? (If it wasn't jazz, it wasn't bebop, certainly not bebop enough for Barry.)

  50. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
    How would you call players like MVI, JVR, Ulf Wakenius, Bireli to distinguish them from the Raneys for example? How about Wes and Herb? Not bop?

    DB
    my friend matthias nadolny uses the term "modern mainstream". imo MVI and jesse play mainstream jazz that is also informed by jim hall,sco, metheny et al. same for wakenius i guess. bireli plays fantastic gipsy and fusion jazz, i think mainstream jazz with standards, let alone strict bebop, is actually not his strongest side (still stronger than most mortals of course). wes moves between charlie christian and hardbop, there is some parker influence of course. but you can hear that his development happened at the same time as bop came into focus. he is almost a transitional player from swing to bop, but goes beyond as well. herb is a swing guitarist to my ears.

  51. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    not sure - Messiaen was interested in Indian music wasn’t he?
    Very much so. His preference for both additive and palindromic rhythms came from early studies of classical Indian talas.