Chromatically descending ii-Vs

[FatJeff]

Hey,

I'm working on some tunes that have consecutive, chromatically descending, single-measure ii-Vs, and I wondered what kinds of patterns any of you have devised to go over these kinds of progressions. I've worked up a couple of stock licks, but they are kind of lame, and I was thinking maybe some of you had better ideas that you like to employ when these situations come up.

Examples: mm. 15-16 of You Stepped Out Of A Dream, or mm. 5-6 of Satin Doll. There are a bunch of these in Blues for Alice, too.

[fep]

Hi Jeff,

Wes Montgomery liked to use these. For some quick ones check out his Four on Six.

Four on Six

| Gm7 C7 | Gm7 C7 | Gm7 C7 | Gm7 C7
| Cm7 F7 | Bbm7 Eb7 | Am7 D7 | Ebm7 Ab7 |
| Gm7 C7 | Gm7 C7 | Gm7 C7 | Gm7 C7 |
| Bbmaj7 | Am7b5 D7#9 | Gm7 | D7#9 |

about 200bpm

What I'm doing for the 2nd line is choosing either the m7 chord or the dominant chord and playing lines over that.

So I'll play over Cm7 - Bbm7 - Am7 - Ab7 , I like this best as you can target the end of each of these measures with the 7th of the chord which is also the leading tone of the next chord (except for the Cm7 where it's a whole step below the next chord). It leads to smooth transitions from chord to chord.

Or I'll play over F7 - Eb7 - D7 - Ab7

[FatJeff]

I guess I should have been more specific. By "patterns" I meant actual licks, not chord progressions. But I will try your idea of targeting the 7th at the end of the phrase, and I'll give 4 on 6 listen.

[oilywrag]

Hi jeff why dont you try a half step below the root and going up and scale tones coming down play with that and see where it leads,I am new to this but hey if it sounds good go for it

Cheers Tom

[fep]

Hi Jeff, I wrote up an example of how I approach these (attached pdf, btw play it with all those slurs and slides).

Like I said, when I play this I'm not thinking

Bm7 E7 Bbm7 Eb7 Am7 D7

I'm thinking

Bm7 Bbm7 Am7 Gmaj7

I think playing very diatonic to the chords is the way to go. The progression is already chromatic so vanilla lines already sound hip.

[FatJeff]

Thanks for the ideas, I will definitely try them out!

[kaige]

Wes Montgomery's 'Missile Blues" has many tasty examples
Also check "West Coast Blues."

[FatJeff]

Excellent - I do have that recording. Looks like I have a new transcription to do.

[franco6719]

Wes Montgomery has some nice lines over those tunes (hint, hint) (;

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Of course, there's a lot of different things you could do. But if the progression is:

| Bm7 E7 | Bbm7 Eb7 | Am7 D7 |

I think of the "outside" 2-5's as tritone substitutions, so that's:

| Bm7 E7 | Em7 A7 | Am7 D7 |

And in general when the chords are going by quickly, my first thought is to concentrate on the dominant chords, making it:

| E7 | A7 | D7 |

How about that, kids? Circle of fifths, circle of fifths.

[FatJeff]

Thanks BDLH. That certainly makes things a little easier.

Speaking of Wes, the GF and I went to a "Wes Montgomery Tribute" show at a new jazz club here in Denver this past Sat. nite. It was amazing. Dave Corbus on guitar, Ken Walker on bass, Paul Romain on drums and Jeff Jenkins on piano. 3 1/2 hours of nothin' but Wes (with some good food to boot) - I thought I'd died and went to heaven!

[Reg]

Hey Jeff...How goes...Yea...what to play over descending or sometimes termed contiguous II-V's... When the tune requires staying down the road, I usually use a common tone(s) and play rhythmic melodic patterns around, over or under the simple melody idea from common tones. It's somewhat like a compound line or melody and usually all the traditional jazz concepts apply.
An example being; use the b7 of the II- chord going to the b3 of the V7 chord along with the common tone b3 of II- becoming b7 of V7 chord and play a rhythmic pattern around, under or above,( you can accent the simple melodic idea or use the simple idea as ostinato or pedal tone, to help tie your rhythmic patterns or phrases together). On 2nd II-V use same idea, or if your able, use a variation of 1st II-V idea on 2nd II-v and back to original idea on 3rd II-V, helps create the Call and Answer feel which will make it groove... As far as harmonic material, the sky's the limit. The more theoretical bullshit you understand, the quicker and easier it is. I'll post again with harmonic examples and explain how and why they work, and give samples of ones I use. I'm going to start posting vids soon, will make much easier I hope... Reg

[mr. beaumont]

Of course, there's a lot of different things you could do. But if the progression is:

| Bm7 E7 | Bbm7 Eb7 | Am7 D7 |

I think of the "outside" 2-5's as tritone substitutions, so that's:

| Bm7 E7 | Em7 A7 | Am7 D7 |

And in general when the chords are going by quickly, my first thought is to concentrate on the dominant chords, making it:

| E7 | A7 | D7 |

How about that, kids? Circle of fifths, circle of fifths.

right on.

i always sort of see simplifying ii V's to dominant as a "classic" jazz perspective, and simplifying them to minor (dorian) as a little more modern.

[Jazzyteach65]

So how would you guys treat each chord from a scaler point? The "correct" way is to use lydian b7 for each chord, or diminished for the tri-tone, but there are many options!

[Reg]

I'm not sure what you mean by, "correct"...But playing from Molodic Min. works well to my ear. I usually, in chromatic II-V's, vary each II-V. In the example; / B-7 E7 / Bb-7 Bb7 / A-7 D7 /etc Usually there's something implied, looking at the example 1) going to Gmaj. Call B-7 III-, use phrygian call E7 V7/II- and use an Alt. scale, 7th degree of F mm, or either Harmonic or Molodic min V7 chord, by way Modal interchange, anything but Dim. For the 2nd II-V, you can call it what ever you want, Deceptive resolution Contiguous II-V's or come up with an implied whatever, I usually just would play standard Dor. - Mixo., or something tonic sounding to help resolve the alt. II-V before and start a tension, release, pattern and the last II-V, A-7 to D7, I would hint at dorian on A- and alt. on D7 and resolve with Gmaj.7. If I started with B-7 to E lydian b7 on first II-V, would make sure the Bmin7 was a B-6 etc.. as long there's some method to the madness of selecting your scale to chord relationship it usually works. Again where it's going or your choice of implying where it's going does create strong tendencies. Make it groove or your just noodlin.
I guess if your going along at a medium tempo MM= 200 and each chord is a quarter note, most players would be happy playing eighth notes... then lets say your at an actual gig, what do you do?...Take the time to learn the theory and be able to read well... it's just as important as time on your instrument...well maybe almost as important. Best Reg

[fep]

Reg wrote: "mm = 200 is medium tempo" ?!!

I really don't think you need to get fancy using melodic minor or an altered scale... the chords being chromatic will make you lines sound hip even if you stick to dorian and mixolydian or arps to the 7th or 9th connect here and there with chromatics.

[Jake Hanlon]

II V Progressions that resolve by...

Whole Step up Major
Tritone Minor

are Subdominant or 'backdoor' functions, to simply state it, the dominant chord functions as a 9b5 chord, which if you desire a scale to assign to it, think 4th mode of Melodic minor. This should give you some melodic material to work with. Look for some of your favorite players working on tunes with this progression as it's the most common point of resolution outside of the V chord going to a Tonic major or minor

[Reg]

Hey fep... yea I agree totally. And I don't really like MM on the II- chord of chromatic II-V's, But I do like to alt the V chord, even when going to Maj. I always hear , for example; / A-7 D7 / Gmaj6/9 /. I always imply the actual chords, at least the 1st beat of A-7 and stay pretty close on beat 2, maybe, d , d# , e, or something close to Adorian but I usually hear the D7 as, D7,D7alt, Ab13#11 then resolving to Gmaj. It just depend on how much room there is. That's how I play, I approach or re-harmonize as much as think the listeners will dig or what I think I can get away for me to have fun. Most gigs you start pretty safe, grab your audience with beauty or flash, then take them for a ride. I use arps like grace notes to my simple melody lines, which most listeners can follow, and I get to have fun.
And yea mm200 is a pretty standard medium tempo, you feel or count it in 2. Big band and latin gigs... that could be a slower tempo. And I think Jake is referring to V7#11 chord resolving subdominantly by half step, B-7 / E7#11 / Bb-7 Eb7 /.The E7#11 resolving to Eb7, standard Sub.V Resolution down half step. Maybe, Jake if you see this, am I close to what your implying. Thanks Reg

[franco6719]

I'm not sure what you mean by, "correct"...But playing from Molodic Min. works well to my ear. I usually, in chromatic II-V's, vary each II-V. In the example; / B-7 E7 / Bb-7 Bb7 / A-7 D7 /etc Usually there's something implied, looking at the example 1) going to Gmaj. Call B-7 III-, use phrygian call E7 V7/II- and use an Alt. scale, 7th degree of F mm, or either Harmonic or Molodic min V7 chord, by way Modal interchange, anything but Dim. For the 2nd II-V, you can call it what ever you want, Deceptive resolution Contiguous II-V's or come up with an implied whatever, I usually just would play standard Dor. - Mixo., or something tonic sounding to help resolve the alt. II-V before and start a tension, release, pattern and the last II-V, A-7 to D7, I would hint at dorian on A- and alt. on D7 and resolve with Gmaj.7. If I started with B-7 to E lydian b7 on first II-V, would make sure the Bmin7 was a B-6 etc.. as long there's some method to the madness of selecting your scale to chord relationship it usually works. Again where it's going or your choice of implying where it's going does create strong tendencies. Make it groove or your just noodlin.
I guess if your going along at a medium tempo MM= 200 and each chord is a quarter note, most players would be happy playing eighth notes... then lets say your at an actual gig, what do you do?...Take the time to learn the theory and be able to read well... it's just as important as time on your instrument...well maybe almost as important. Best Reg

Christ, if I had to think about it to that extent, I wouldn't be able to play ANYTHING. My opinion, FWIW, just get the changes in your ears and focus on the chord tones and try to develop some lines that SOUND GOOD.

[franco6719]

Learn the tune, hear the changes, and try to find appropriate notes. Period..

[rich2k4]

heh, all these complicated explanations. man if i had to think the way some of you think about this stuff, i wouldn't be able to play anything.

my advice, just move the pitch collection down a half step.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Moving down chromatically certainly works, but sometimes when the progression is clicking by:

| Bm7 E7 | Bbm7 Eb7 | Am7 D7 |

Any you play over:

| E7 | A7 | D7 |

(Joe Pass style) or

| Bm7 | Em7 | Am7 |

(Pat Martino style)

It sounds (to take a skiing analogy) like you are carving S's

[FatJeff]

Moving down chromatically certainly works, but sometimes when the progression is clicking by:

| Bm7 E7 | Bbm7 Eb7 | Am7 D7 |

Any you play over:

| E7 | A7 | D7 |

(Joe Pass style) or

| Bm7 | Em7 | Am7 |

(Pat Martino style)

It sounds (to take a skiing analogy) like you are carving S's

Is that bad or good?

[FatJeff]

heh, all these complicated explanations. man if i had to think the way some of you think about this stuff, i wouldn't be able to play anything.

my advice, just move the pitch collection down a half step.

This was my first inclination, and I crafted a few decent licks using this idea as the foundation. After a little while though, they all start to sound a little tame and obvious. I'm now looking into writing some lines that wend their way through the changes in a less stair-step manner, something that will persist for the whole section.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Is that bad or good?

Good!