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  1. #1

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    Barry Harris helps

    and I've just discovered this monstrously good player:

    Chad Lefcowitz Brown - who I think can help a very great deal

    e.ghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE6JRUyJS8g

    and this has (almost) nothing to do with the horn or the piano or the guitar.

    this guy is blowing my mind - and I've been practicing e.g. his approach tone/enclosure stuff recently. it's all just fragments of the actual music.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    That web address didn't post as a link, so here it is as one:

  4. #3

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    anyone any views on how dooden tonguing works on the guitar?

    when I try to close down the note with my tongue it just doesn't work somehow....

    (of course - this is a dimension of learning which does have to do with the particular instrument you play...)

    my worry is that e.g. if you don't wrestle with the guitar very resolutely - if you let the guitar dictate e.g. the way you articulate - you will not get where you want to go

    that thought actually leads to a stronger claim than the one I make in the title

    hard for me not to think that all the instruments need to mimic vocal rhythms and phrasing as much as possible (but that might be harder on the guitar - with its string crossing issues - than on most other instruments)

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    anyone any views on how dooden tonguing works on the guitar?
    The dooden part is the easier one---accenting the downbeats in ascending lines. The reverse (accenting the upbeats in descending lines; is there a name for that in the video?) is trickier.

    How did Wes---who didn't use a pick at all---manage this? Slurs???

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    anyone any views on how dooden tonguing works on the guitar?

    when I try to close down the note with my tongue it just doesn't work somehow....

    the irrelevance of the guitar to learning to play jazz on guitar-54898484_401-jpg

    ?

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    the irrelevance of the guitar to learning to play jazz on guitar-54898484_401-jpg

    ?
    oh I get it - sure thing - impressive tonguing

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    anyone any views on how dooden tonguing works on the guitar?

    when I try to close down the note with my tongue it just doesn't work somehow....

    (of course - this is a dimension of learning which does have to do with the particular instrument you play...)

    my worry is that e.g. if you don't wrestle with the guitar very resolutely - if you let the guitar dictate e.g. the way you articulate - you will not get where you want to go

    that thought actually leads to a stronger claim than the one I make in the title

    hard for me not to think that all the instruments need to mimic vocal rhythms and phrasing as much as possible (but that might be harder on the guitar - with its string crossing issues - than on most other instruments)
    Evoking vocal rhythms is pretty much the whole ball of wax, IMHO. Absolutely key. Notes - pitches and phrasing - come first. All else is technical execution.

  9. #8

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    You see young players with incredible chops.

    It may take more time to develop repertoire, vocabulary, have well trained ears and have an instant connection between an idea and its execution.

  10. #9

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    Looks like excellent jazz language building material. Thanks for the heads up Groyniad!

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by citizenk74
    Evoking vocal rhythms is pretty much the whole ball of wax, IMHO. Absolutely key. Notes - pitches and phrasing - come first. All else is technical execution.
    This is why Herb Ellis was always saying "sing what you play (or play what you sing, however you want to say it)."

    Though to Groyniad's concern, one may have speech rhythms in one's playing---such as BB King and T-Bone Walker did----without playing bebop. Articulating the rhythms in a bebop way is thing unto itself, I think. And doing it on the guitar is, well, easier said than hummed! ;o)

  12. #11

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    this is another good one

    the best way to get this stuff is just to work on the sort of phrases from (most obviously) Parker or Clifford Brown or Sonny, Dexter etc. - and you might not bring it to explicit consciousness of course in the way this amazing guy has done.

    but I think this can happen by itself - without explicitly identifying it - more readily if you're playing a horn than if you're playing a stringed instrument. string crossing and position issues are likely to eclipse these crucial subtleties of phrasing.

    Both Chad and Saxologic (I'm sure I should know who he is - I bet he's famous) illustrate the phrasing with simple scales. I can't believe I've not appreciated the down-beat ascending / off-beat descending articulation explicitly until these guys turned me onto it.

  13. #12

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    Accenting the upbeats in descending lines is actually quite easy; pick the upbeat notes and slur the downbeat notes.

  14. #13

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    Work on articulation in bop heads; listen carefully

  15. #14

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    I find myself using a lot of left hand slurring for bird

  16. #15

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    It can never hurt to listen horns, so many incredible melodic ideas, articulation and groove.

    Regarding the OP first video, I would forget it. Somehow the phrasing is really stinks for me, especiall after the first 10 secs, the best I can say: weird or artifically rigid, maybe not the best as learning material.

    I also miss the point why to deep dive a horn specific technical thing. While it make sense to listen and learn from the great players, the instrument specifics may be beirrevelant

  17. #16

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    I agree with Gabor. I think on the guitar the thing to shoot for is to distill the influence of other instruments onto the instrument in a way which is natural.

    Charlie Christian wasn’t literally Lester Young on the guitar. Jimmy Raney didn’t translate Bird exactly on to his instrument.... Allan Holdsworth wasn’t simply Coltrane on guitar...

    Peter Bernstein is influenced by Monk but his use of open strings to imitate some of those chords is obviously highly guitaristic and imaginative.

    The influence is obvious in each case but they found their own guitaristic way of doing it, and I think the ear and a bit of imagination is the way forward. Non guitar music should encourage you to explore the guitar in new ways....

  18. #17

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    Btw this is Mike Morenos solution to the horn like phrasing thing



    I went through a phase of watching these sorts of videos, but these days I’m more likely to try and find my own solutions direct from the music. It’s helpful to have someone point out things to pay attention to though.

  19. #18

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    Approach notes, as best I can tell, was one of the few thing that Charlie Banacos had ALL his students work on. He really thought it was essential. Takes a lot of time to get them under your fingers, especially on guitar, but worth it.

    As far as articulation goes, it's always been a case of, as Schoenberg put it, "a centipede thinking about how to walk." If those kinds of prescriptions help you, by all means go for it, but consciously thinking about it always trips me up.

    The way I learned to articulate on the instrument was pretty simple. I had heard that Tristano had his students memorize and sing lots of solos. So I took a bunch of solos by Lester Young, Charlie Christian, Charlie Parker, Bud Powell, Fats Navarro, Louis Armstrong, etc. and just listened to them on repeat for months.

    Even when I was in a subway station, and the noise from the trains would drown out the music from my cheap headphones, I could still hear Charlie Parker's accents cutting through the din.

    It's a bit like picking up an accent with a spoken language. You listen to it all day, and it gradually just seeps into your subconscious and comes out without you having to think about it.

    A lot of times, those prescriptions for swing (whether it's tied triplets, over emphasize the offbeats, etc) end up sounding like an American trying to imitate a British accent -- forced, theatrical, more than a little corny.

    (Incidentally, I've met a ton of Brits who could do a dead-on American accent when they wanted to. Probably a metaphor in there somewhere).

  20. #19

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    great stuff guys

    I did stress the difference between getting this stuff without explicitly focusing on it and getting it by explicitly focusing on it

    and the point was that its easier on horns to get it without focusing on it - because they don't land you with string crossing issues (you just have to deal with the transition between having all your fingers pressing down keys and none of them - D - C sharp on a flute - but this is nothing compared to having different strings)

    If you haven't got fingering alternatives down the strings often force bad phrasing on you - its one of the first things you notice if you come to the guitar from a wind instrument

    ---

    I learned more by listening and singing along to Parker for years in the car (at the top of my lungs) than by doing anything else

    but if I hadn't done anything else I wouldn't be able to play anything!

  21. #20

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    Gabor - you think he played the shoe shine boy and the cheesecake phrases badly??

    I don't

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    The dooden part is the easier one---accenting the downbeats in ascending lines. The reverse (accenting the upbeats in descending lines; is there a name for that in the video?) is trickier.

    How did Wes---who didn't use a pick at all---manage this? Slurs???
    ghost tonguing on guitar - has to be hammering on/off vs picking

    and yes - descending Chad recommends doo-ah

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by dasein
    (Incidentally, I've met a ton of Brits who could do a dead-on American accent when they wanted to. Probably a metaphor in there somewhere).
    The international dominance of American popular culture means we are much more familiar with US accents than vice versa. You'd have to be a real Anglophile to nail it, there's no reason for an American to be familiar with Brit culture to the extent we are with US unless you went our of your way.

    James Marsters on Buffy the Vampire Slayer (90's rewatch binge lol) does a very creditable job (he copied Anthony Stewart Head's real accent, which is less well to do than the one he uses on the show.) The only thing that lets him down is some of the pronunciation of less common words like 'patronise' - in Brit standard with a 'ah', in US English with an 'ey'.

    (BTW my 3 year old is developing a fine London accent, somewhat similar to Ray Winstone lol (with a trace of what's called Multicultural London English, the cultural evolution of that one is very interesting). "can I have some moo'k?', 'oooh a li'uhl baybee' and so on)

    Anyway this awareness if US culture, has an effect on the way I communicate on the forum incidentally. I often use Americanisms here just to aid comprehension, and use Brit idioms a lot less than I would normally.

    However, sometimes don't realise that something I'm saying is a Brit idiom! Or alternatively that something I'm saying is less a Brit idiom than I think it is...

    Sorry what were we talking about again?
    Last edited by christianm77; 11-05-2020 at 08:16 PM.

  24. #23

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    phrasing

    - and the idea that it's better to study horn players than guitar players if you're a guitar player

  25. #24

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    and not to press Christian but MM's whole point is that you have to put a great deal of time and explicit focus into how you play what you play

    that's not Gabor's point

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    phrasing

    - and the idea that it's better to study horn players than guitar players if you're a guitar player
    I must disagree with this. The guitar is a stringed, plucked, instrument. Furthermore, the electric guitar is overwhelmingly a plectrum intrument. And no apologies - none!

    So, legato? Hammer ons and pull offs? Sure, why not. But if you really want to play the saxophone, then go and play the saxophone.


    This oughta be about good enough:
    Last edited by GTRMan; 11-06-2020 at 03:51 AM.

  27. #26

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    I don't know... for me phrasing is all about meaning.
    When we speak with meaning and stress we work with intonation and accents and pauses (even though unconciously)...
    Same thing with music... I can't just mimic it through building up some mechanical system.

    Also sometimes we can use absolutely different means... Frisell can say how much his performance is influenced by this or that singer but when you listen you do not hear him imitating literally the phrasing... he does very guitaristic thing...

    Of course if one wants to be able to play Bird's language... then probably it is important to learn that stuff conciously

    And guitar cannot be irrelevant - it is the tool.. it is most relevant to what we do with phrasing. I know what you mean when you say that but i am afraid it can be misleading... maybe I am wrong.

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    and not to press Christian but MM's whole point is that you have to put a great deal of time and explicit focus into how you play what you play

    that's not Gabor's point
    I wasn’t posting Mike Moreno with reference to Gabor’s post. If anything it sort of goes against what he is saying a bit.

    Life is full of messy contradictions. Sue me.

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    phrasing

    - and the idea that it's better to study horn players than guitar players if you're a guitar player
    I don’t think it’s better?

    But much like we tell players to accent the upbeats to even out their 8ths because they accent the beat, it’s a compensation for the fact that many players are guitar focussed to feel them to go and check out horn players, pianists, singers, drummers, string quartets etc.

    Horn players have more phrasing together than guitar... it’s a bit more like singing. It’s probably easier. The breath and so on. I like guitarists (instrumentalists) who have that singing quality. So that’s what you learn by looking into horns.

    I also learned how to use scales in straightahead jazz. Horn players love scales.

    It gets people away from being lick regurgitators and imitators of this or that guitar player a bit as well.

    But I don’t trust any guitarist who says they never listen to guitar. That instantly makes me think they are pretentious and trying to prove something.

    (You also learn that some horn stuff really doesn’t translate.TBF some tenor stuff doesn’t even translate to alto.)

  30. #29

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    every instrument is irrelevant - it's the phrasing that is not irrelevant - and where does that come from? well it doesn't have to come from anywhere except the music - but it's hard not to think it's most closely connected to verbal and vocal rhythms

    the clue is in the word 'instrument' perhaps

    the claim is that - if you don't watch out the guitar will tend to make you phrase in an unmusical way

    right from the start - for me - I've been trying to fit every phrase I play into the fingering patterns that I'm trying to learn in order to learn where the bloody notes are on the fretboard. you learn e.g. g major with your pinky on the low e string, then your second finger, then your first - and then with your third finger off the third on the bottom e string - then with your pinky off the root on the A string etc. etc.

    without these fingering patterns I wouldn't be developing an ability to find the notes I want in a melody I'm trying to lug etc. etc.

    but these fingering patterns have NOTHING to do with phrasing and everything to do with the exigencies of fingering on a six string instrument with the intervals the guitar happens to have between the strings

    -----

    players like KB, JH and WM have solved this problem beautifully - creatively - musically: and that's largely why they sound so good

    but the guitar breeds a culture in which people take seriously such musical nonsense as - you play three notes per string then change string (or whatever it is)

    imagine that translated into horn-language!!!!

    Nicky Hart - on the vid. Christian posted - goes on about this with astronomically more authority than I can claim.

    if you listen to the amazing guy explaining Parker's phrasing and you don't think the differences between his increasingly musical renditions of his template-idea are musically significant then we'll have to agree to disagree

  31. #30

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    if you come into the music from somewhere other than jazz as most guitarists seem to I think it's easier to believe that the guitar is way more important than it is.

    in rock the guitar is not just powerful - but it almost single handedly constitutes the genre

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    if you come into the music from somewhere other than jazz as most guitarists seem to I think it's easier to believe that the guitar is way more important than it is.

    in rock the guitar is not just powerful - but it almost single handedly constitutes the genre
    And yet all the great ground breaking rock guitar players took influences from other instruments and genres.

    But yes. I think the hardest thing for the newcomer jazz guitar is to understand the music is not built around the guitar and guitar parts.

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad;1073390/
    ... players like KB, JH and WM ...
    I wonder, who is hiding behind those innitials?

    According to wiki, List of jazz guitarists - Wikipedia

    there are options:









    Last edited by Vladan; 11-07-2020 at 01:23 PM.

  34. #33

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    just the obvious ones man - I don't know that many guitar players!

  35. #34

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    [QUOTE=christianm77;1073315]The international dominance of American popular culture means we are much more familiar with US accents than vice versa. You'd have to be a real Anglophile to nail it, there's no reason for an American to be familiar with Brit culture to the extent we are with US unless you went our of your way.

    James Marsters on Buffy the Vampire Slayer (90's rewatch binge lol) does a very creditable job (he copied Anthony Stewart Head's real accent, which is less well to do than the one he uses on the show.) The only thing that lets him down is some of the pronunciation of less common words like 'patronise' - in Brit standard with a 'ah', in US English with an 'ey'.

    (BTW my 3 year old is developing a fine London accent, somewhat similar to Ray Winstone lol (with a trace of what's called Multicultural London English, the cultural evolution of that one is very interesting). "can I have some moo'k?', 'oooh a li'uhl baybee' and so on)

    Anyway this awareness if US culture, has an effect on the way I communicate on the forum incidentally. I often use Americanisms here just to aid comprehension, and use Brit idioms a lot less than I would normally.

    However, sometimes don't realise that something I'm saying is a Brit idiom! Or alternatively that something I'm saying is less a Brit idiom than I think it is...

    Sorry what were we talking about again?[/QUOTE

    Maybe it's a little like an American southern accent. It's very easy to parody, but very hard to get right. Southern accents in the US are also still related to region and social class, so there is an aristocratic sort of southern accent, a rural version, etc. And there are phonological things that imitators rarely get right, not to mention actual idioms, inner-southern slang, etc. When I hear a southern accent on TV or in a movie, I think my reaction is not unlike that of folks from the UK hearing a "british" accent spoken by a non-brit actor.

  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    I must disagree with this. The guitar is a stringed, plucked, instrument. Furthermore, the electric guitar is overwhelmingly a plectrum intrument. And no apologies - none!

    So, legato? Hammer ons and pull offs? Sure, why not. But if you really want to play the saxophone, then go and play the saxophone.


    This oughta be about good enough:
    A few things here. One, I don't care for the way Joe plays "Donna Lee." He's a great player but I think this is just not good tune for him. I think that Matteo Mancuso sounds much better, more fluid. (Btw, did Wes or Kenny or Grant or Barney or Herb play "Donna Lee"?)



    I think it's great to learn "Donna Lee" because it has an incredible amount of bebop language in it. Here's Jimmy Bruno making that point. (Long rant at the beginning here. Start at 4:30 for his "Donna Lee" advice.)



    Once upon a time I thought, "If I had known I would love jazz so much, I would have taken up the sax instead of the guitar." That was long ago. Now I think, "Thank God I took up the guitar!" I love Charlie Parker's playing and there's a lot to learn from it, but sounding like a saxophone on the guitar is not one of those things.

    Then there's Guthrie Govan, whose use of effects give his guitar much more dynamic range than Joe Pass had. (Parker's shifts of volume are beyond the reach of an archtop guitar.)


  37. #36

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    Enough of the Guthrie Govan videos, lol. He can really play but he's not a serious musical artist, he's a parlor trick jokester. And the tone of that guitar sounded horrible on Donna Lee.

    And that Mancuso guy really has fantastic technique and chops, I must say.

    Of course, his solo was shorter and while it included the bebop language it also veered into other styles. Thats OK, but not as authentic. Joe Pass was the real deal from start to finish. (Not to mention that he was playing live with another master musician in front of a large enthusiastic audience, instead of at home with a backing track.)

  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad

    in rock the guitar is not just powerful - but it almost single handedly constitutes the genre

    True. The same can be said of Flamenco. Folk. Blues. Pop.

    So, when it comes to Jazz, do we think that great guitarists sell more records and concert tickets than horn players? I do. I've been to a number of George Benson, John McLaughlin and Pat Metheny concerts. And "Great Guitars" concerts with Barney, Herb, Charlie.

    I have also been to Miles Davis, Dexter Gordon and Phil Woods concerts. The audience size for the guitarists was larger - by orders of magnitude.

    Was it Chopin who said something like the following "there is no sweeter sound on earth besides a guitar, except perhaps two"


    Finally, The Concierto De Aranjuez is the most requested concerto of American symphony audience members.
    Last edited by GTRMan; 11-06-2020 at 01:04 PM.

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    every instrument is irrelevant - it's the phrasing that is not irrelevant - and where does that come from? well it doesn't have to come from anywhere except the music - but it's hard not to think it's most closely connected to verbal and vocal rhythms

    the clue is in the word 'instrument' perhaps

    the claim is that - if you don't watch out the guitar will tend to make you phrase in an unmusical way

    right from the start - for me - I've been trying to fit every phrase I play into the fingering patterns that I'm trying to learn in order to learn where the bloody notes are on the fretboard. you learn e.g. g major with your pinky on the low e string, then your second finger, then your first - and then with your third finger off the third on the bottom e string - then with your pinky off the root on the A string etc. etc.

    without these fingering patterns I wouldn't be developing an ability to find the notes I want in a melody I'm trying to lug etc. etc.

    but these fingering patterns have NOTHING to do with phrasing and everything to do with the exigencies of fingering on a six string instrument with the intervals the guitar happens to have between the strings

    -----

    players like KB, JH and WM have solved this problem beautifully - creatively - musically: and that's largely why they sound so good

    but the guitar breeds a culture in which people take seriously such musical nonsense as - you play three notes per string then change string (or whatever it is)

    imagine that translated into horn-language!!!!

    Nicky Hart - on the vid. Christian posted - goes on about this with astronomically more authority than I can claim.

    if you listen to the amazing guy explaining Parker's phrasing and you don't think the differences between his increasingly musical renditions of his template-idea are musically significant then we'll have to agree to disagree
    Every instrument (including the saxophone) has its technique hurdles to get over. Once a player clears the hurdles they have the opportunity to make a lot of music.

    And instruments are most definitely relevant. If they weren't, people wouldn't construct their ensembles so carefully.
    Last edited by GTRMan; 11-06-2020 at 01:02 PM.

  40. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Maybe it's a little like an American southern accent. It's very easy to parody, but very hard to get right. Southern accents in the US are also still related to region and social class, so there is an aristocratic sort of southern accent, a rural version, etc. And there are phonological things that imitators rarely get right, not to mention actual idioms, inner-southern slang, etc. When I hear a southern accent on TV or in a movie, I think my reaction is not unlike that of folks from the UK hearing a "british" accent spoken by a non-brit actor.
    I've heard the southern accent is very hard to get right.

  41. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I've heard the southern accent is very hard to get right.
    Indeed, mainly because, like the "british" accent, it's just too easy to fall into what amounts to a parody. But some southern accents, for example, omit final "r" so "never" is pronounced "néh-vah" whereas literally just a few miles down the road, they'll say "neh-vehr". Also bogus food references (very few southerners have ever even eaten "chitlins" and don't even know what they are, much less like them).

    So... yeah... like you, I now can't recall what the topic of this thread was...

  42. #41

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    I find this interesting: Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie were both leading lights of bebop. They could play heads together in unison but when they soloed, they did not phrase the same way.



    Miles played with Bird too but didn't phrase like him. Or Diz. Later, Sonny Rollins and John Coltrane did not phrase like Bird either.

    Sonny Stitt, on the other hand, was called a Bird clone because he phrased so much like Bird. (I think Stitt is a great player who has played some of my favorite jazz solos.)






    Maybe the thing to do is phrase one's own way...

  43. #42

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    Interesting bit about Wes Montgomery by Pat Metheny. (From a Jim Ferguson article in Jazz Times.)

    Part IV
    PAT METHENY: When I was 13 years old and just starting, Wes was my first guitar-playing hero. A friend said I ought to check him out, so I got five or six of his records. The first one was The Wes Montgomery Trio [Riverside] with Melvin Rhyne and Paul Parker, which I listened to over and over again. The first thing I did was throw away my picks. I did everything I could to sound like Wes Montgomery. But when I started using my Wes stuff around Kansas City, I caught a major draft from the older guys for copying him. It forced me to realize that trying to imitate him wasn't musically good for me and it was even disrespectful. Today, I have a real problem with people who try to sound like him. I don't mind it too much when George Benson does it-somehow there's a literal connection there that has a resonance and truth-but in general it bugs me.
    Wes' phrasing and melodic development affected me the most. He had a story-telling quality that let ideas unfold over time in a way no guitarist had done before. He took certain stylistic breakthroughs of Sonny Rollins and John Coltrane and applied them to the guitar in a way that is the ultimate achievement for an improvising musician. On a phrasing level, he made the guitar speak. Up to that point, players picked every note and had guitar-like phrasing. He was in the same ballpark with the greatest horn improvisers; he's probably the only pre-1970 guitarist I can say that about. Wes and Jim Hall pretty much revolutionized the instrument. Those are the two guys for me.
    Wes was a harmonic improviser second to none. He also got that horn-like Clifford Brown articulation happening. Even now there are so few guitarists who can play inside a rhythm section and make it swing like that. A lot of it was the thumb factor. Since he didn't use a pick, he had to not only learn different ways of negotiating tempos, but also innovate ways of getting from point A to point B on the guitar neck. I recently saw a video of him playing with a Dutch big band. What knocked me out was that he casually looked around-as he used just three left-hand fingers-making it all seem so easy. There was such a joyful, happy spirit that I laughed the whole time I saw it.
    One of my pet peeves is that people say Wes sold out, but his later records are some of my favorites. The one I recommend most highly is Smokin' At The Half Note [Verve]. I can sing every note played by Wes, Wynton Kelly, Paul Chambers, and Jimmy Cobb. "If You Could See Me Now" is the greatest guitar solo ever played, including anything by Jimi Hendrix, Robert Johnson, or anybody else. It's the highest level attained on the guitar in terms of just dealing with music. I also love Down Here On The Ground and A Day In The Life [both A&M]. Those records illuminate another aspect of his improvisational talents: Stretching out and playing 50 choruses on a tune is one thing, but not many guys can take eight bars and make a perfect jewel of a statement.
    Right before Wes died in 1968, I met him at the Kansas City Jazz Festival. I asked him for his autograph-today it's on my wall-and explained that I was just learning. He said, "You've got to know all the notes on the instrument." That probably was the best thing he could have told me, because I was still avoiding going up above the 5th fret. He was so nice to me, a little punk with braces on my teeth. I especially remember the glow he had and the vibe of goodness he projected. Wes was a very special cat.

    http://hepcat1950.com/patonwes.html

  44. #43

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    chad certainly makes an interesting claim in the video posted above - namely, that everyone tends to stress downbeats ascending and upbeats descending

    if that's even nearly true of mainstream players from Lester to Dexter it's pretty fascinating

    whilst I had never explicitly noticed this I'm sure I tend to do it too - but even so - it's still interesting to notice it

    you don't have to use approach tones and enclosure either - but if you want to get certain effects going in your playing then...

    Parker's phrasing strikes me - and always has - as pure spine-tingling hair-raising magic. I love Sonny Stitt too - but I'm not the only one who has listened to him a tiny fraction as much as I've listened to Parker

    But the issues in play may well be common elements in both their distinctive styles

  45. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Indeed, mainly because, like the "british" accent, it's just too easy to fall into what amounts to a parody. But some southern accents, for example, omit final "r" so "never" is pronounced "néh-vah" whereas literally just a few miles down the road, they'll say "neh-vehr". Also bogus food references (very few southerners have ever even eaten "chitlins" and don't even know what they are, much less like them).

    So... yeah... like you, I now can't recall what the topic of this thread was...
    Sounds similar to the Uk. I mean you can go about as far as Americans would drive to get a loaf of bread and feel you are in a slightly foreign country. Also English is not the only native language in the UK either.
    Last edited by christianm77; 11-06-2020 at 07:55 PM.

  46. #45

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    Anyway, so the thing is, when you try to imitate bop, you will probably always speak it with an accent. And it's been shown melodies follow speech patterns.

  47. #46

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    Wow. Chad. He's a friend. He was a student at The Brubeck Institute. I was a teacher. I wasn't directly his teacher but I did teach and assist in teaching a few classes he was in. One was where Benny Green taught for a week. I helped and co-taught. I have some recordings of us I need to mix. I also mixed a few of thir albums. I'm so glad he's getting such recognition, mainly through his youtube videos. He's a great writer too.

  48. #47

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    Hey Groyniad, you might like to try out these - an ongoing collection of diatonic major approach note/enclosure exercises that I've been putting together for my own practise purposes and students over the past few years. They're sourced from PDFs by Chad Lefkowitz-Brown, fellow saxophonist, Steve Neff, Barry Harris, Pasquale Grasso and from listening to all the bop greats.

    Approach note/enclosures are placed between/around ascending and descending scale and arpeggio figures. The descending arpeggio figures are often interleaved in my examples. Louis Armstrong (intro to West End Blues) and Charlie Parker were particularly partial to that device. Enjoy!
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  49. #48

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    ...just to clarify, when I said intrument specifics are ireveleant, I meant other instrument specifics. For example horn specifics are irrevelent to guitar, of course guitar technique specifics can not be irrevelant to guitar, like hammers and pull offs, Indeed, to copy Wes, we must use the very same fingerings as he , because we must allow the same pull offs, hammers, but most importantly the same slides...

    All above could be a bottleneck, which prevents guitar playing to have free expressions, which is similar to singing. This problem is unevitable in medium up and up tempos, where you only can play movements what you practiced. (I said movements, not licks, but still..) This is a limitation.

    It is interesting that how ballads eliminate this bottleneck, and allows you to really play something, what you never practiced (technically) with other words express yourself more freely, and speak, and say something. I think this is a real differentiator between learning musicians, some like ballads, and can not do so much in up tempos, others like more meduim up and up tempos, and can not do so much in ballads

  50. #49

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    Seems to me that the guitar’s chief challenges are......

    1. Several places to play the same thing,
    2. Lack of sustain after a string “attack”

    We have to deal with both - but - we don’t have to sound exactly like a sax, trumpet, or piano. We can take measures to achieve similar phrasing and articulation, but beyond that, we play the guitar and let them worry about imitating us.
    Last edited by GTRMan; 11-07-2020 at 09:56 AM.

  51. #50

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    I'm obsessed with the guitar - please don't think I'm dissing it!

    it's just that it sets a distinctive array of challenges and I think you have to guard against being 'in denial' about that