the irrelevance of the guitar to learning to play jazz on guitar

[Groyniad]

downstrokes...

yes - almost all now it seems

I haven't been pushing the tempos yet (which might encourage one to use upstrokes too) - but do you think its better to use downstrokes as much as possible?

it seems to go very well with a Wes-type approach - the thumb suddenly seems like a real option (and it never has seemed that way to me before)

[christianm77]

I like downstrokes. I practiced a lot playing each new string with a downstroke (Gypsy/Joe Pass style.)

But these days I have no idea what my right hand is doing. I find it best not to ask most of the time.

[djg]

yes - almost all now it seems

I haven't been pushing the tempos yet (which might encourage one to use upstrokes too) - but do you think its better to use downstrokes as much as possible?

it seems to go very well with a Wes-type approach - the thumb suddenly seems like a real option (and it never has seemed that way to me before)

yes to downstrokes.

and every wes fan needs to go through a thumb phase. it is so helpful with the phrasing. not only the challenge of finding good fingerings to slur into the beat. but you can also slur into every quarternote, giving every note some english. it's fun to practice and really exaggerate this tendency that wes has. maybe learn the solo to west coast blues, with your thumb of course. the tempo is humane and the lines are great with good fingerings being relatively easy to find. or the single line portion of gone with the wind, or d-natural blues.

[christianm77]

There’s some good footage of Wes’s right hand knocking around. I’ll see if I can find it.

To my eyes The angle of the thumb doing rest strokes into the strings is very similar to the way a Gypsy jazz player picks.

He also uses the fabled thumb upstroke but generally the same way a Gypsy player would, as a recovery stroke from a downstroke, not to start a string.

This type of technique seems to me to encourage this type of phrasing. You have to slur to descend, but not so much to ascend. Lots of slides too.

[Vladan]

I mean, really, it is one basic skill players should acquire in their teens, first couple of years playing the instrument.
Or, at about the same time decide it's all irrelevant BS that will in no way make them play better, what they want to play.

In essence, for what pages and pages are being wasted = learn to play starting with upstroke on (down)beat (1,2,3,4, ...)/ downstroke on upbeat ("and" ).
Or you can learn to alternate pick "properly" and accent with upstrokes.

[rintincop]

Chad's claim that the "dooden" -- accenting the downbeats in ascending lines is common practice is false.
He himself accents the upbeats in the majority of his ascending lines when he plays his Etudes!

The majority of the time Miles Davis, Dexter Gordon, Wes Montgomery, Wynton Kelly, Milt Jackson, Sonny Rollins accent their upbeats when ascending.
Of course there are instances when they accent downbeats, typically specific tones, but the clear majority of continuous eighth note phases they play accent the upbeats

[christianm77]

Might be more illuminating to share some example phrases from the greats? This stuff is really just exercises until you hear it in the wild.... or not.

Although I don’t think YouTube timecodes work on JGO?

[DaShigsta]

Did anyone here study (in person or via mail) with Banacos or one of his students ?

Approach notes, as best I can tell, was one of the few thing that Charlie Banacos
had ALL his students work on. He really thought it was essential.
Takes a lot of time to get them under your fingers, especially on guitar, but worth it.

[Groyniad]

there are any number of great phrases that illustrate the issues perfectly here

it's not that you stress downbeats ascending and upbeats descending - it's that you can stress downbeats ascending and upbeats descending.

ascending phrases will tend to 'pivot' on strong beats - but not descending ones

and - oh my god !! - this playing is the best thing I've heard in years and years. (I'm having a good week!)

the wonderful thing is that a player this good (and I haven't heard anyone who isn't dexter, sonny or hank who are this good) is a great teacher and has loads of great teaching materials readily available

I heard this solo for the fist time last night and I'm almost scared to put the sonny version from the MJQ record on.

I didn't know you could be this good nowadays! I thought it had gotten lost.

[Groyniad]

what's that wonderful Parker blues with the phrase that repeats three times?\
can't remember the name!
well - that is a good example

lots of pivots on strong beats on ascending parts and plenty of opportunities to stress weak beats on descending parts

- how about his two examples - shoe shine boy - and - cheesecake?

[docsteve]

Now's the Time?

Homework: where does Bird put the accents?

[djg]

Now's the Time?

probably cool blues

[Groyniad]

cool blues - thanks

[Groyniad]

and the piano player is right up there with him

my goodness gracious

and did anyone notice the bass player?

[rintincop]

The main melody theme in “Now’s The Time” features strong tonic note downbeat accents. During Parker’s solo the majority of his continuous eighth notes accents are on upbeats.

John Coltrane, Lester Young, Oscar Peterson, Bud Powell, Wynton Kelly, and Wynton Marsalis for examples all accented the upbeats in their ascending lines the majority of the time. However, accents also often occur on the highest note of a phrase, on a quarter note; often the last or first note of a phrase, also typically the first note of a triplet. Also, sometimes some accents are placed on the downbeat to make particular phrase sound more emphatic (Now's The Time main head phrase) or to add contrast to all them upbeats. Dizzy said you can "never have enough upbeats".

[Spook410]

I often think one of the biggest impediments to guitarists developing their own sound is having money

I know. Pretty sure I have someone else's tone. Just haven't figured out who it is yet.