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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    Hey Groyniad, you might like to try out these - an ongoing collection of diatonic major approach note/enclosure exercises that I've been putting together for my own practise purposes and students over the past few years. They're sourced from PDFs by Chad Lefkowitz-Brown, fellow saxophonist, Steve Neff, Barry Harris, Pasquale Grasso and from listening to all the bop greats.

    Approach note/enclosures are placed between/around ascending and descending scale and arpeggio figures. The descending arpeggio figures are often interleaved in my examples. Louis Armstrong (intro to West End Blues) and Charlie Parker were particularly partial to that device. Enjoy!
    very generous! that looks like the stuff - loads of fun in there...

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    I ain't ever got hired for a gig because I play like a horn

    Kidding, but not. Somebody hires a guitar player, they want a guitar player, and probably a very specific type of guitar player. Because generally, we are still the dregs.

    I like these conversations though. I always learn something new.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    Parker's phrasing strikes me - and always has - as pure spine-tingling hair-raising magic. I love Sonny Stitt too - but I'm not the only one who has listened to him a tiny fraction as much as I've listened to Parker
    Parker had a killer sound. It leaps out at you. That's him, not the saxophone. Coltrane too. They didn't sound alike but I think they both had killer tones. I think that's the main thing about their appeal.
    Miles went the opposite way but his tone was distinctive too. Miles is interesting in that he played with Bird, was "on the scene" in bebop's heyday and decided to leave it behind for something else. Coltrane, coming later, moved far away from bebop too. I'm not sure what to say about Sonny Rollins in this regard. The Jim Hall of the tenor sax? ;o)

  5. #54

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    I think the issue is hearing melody you like, whatever the instrument.

    The classic archtop guitar, straight into the amp, is not well suited to imitate a saxophone. But, substitute a guitar with more sustain, process the sound to reduce the pick attack, maybe swell with a volume pedal here and there, add some reverb, and the horn lines can sound good on guitar, depending on the horn player you're imitating.

    Then, there are lines that lay easily on guitar and a lot of players employ them. The same is true of horns. I recall bringing an original to a jam and hearing a saxophonist say, "a horn player didn't write this" -- because of jumps in the melody.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    I'm obsessed with the guitar - please don't think I'm dissing it!

    it's just that it sets a distinctive array of challenges and I think you have to guard against being 'in denial' about that
    Yes! There are difficulties, beginning with 'same pitch in different places' (which also leads to 'different timbre for same pitches because...') I think this is the biggest difficulty, period.
    There are advantages to: chords, foremost among them. And partial chords.

    And then there's Wes. No horn player can do this.


  7. #56

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    video unavailable - I'd love to see it

    Wes is all on his own in guitar wonderland (but he's okay he's got his axe)

    but he's the only guitarist who I love in the same way I love bird and bud and sonny and bill

    and I don't love him as a guitarist - or the others as instrumentalists - it's what they play and the way they play it that counts

    as to miles and John and sonny leaving bop behind I'm not convinced it was a good idea

    and I don't listen to sonny much past the bridge

    I'm a bit conservative when it comes to art - I'm a big fan e.g. of Shakespeare and Jane Austin - but I think there are powerful aspects of the contemporary New York jazz scene that make me feel I'm not alone in this

  8. #57

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    I'm exaggerating here of course

    I can't imagine bill Evans playing alto - and even bird on tenor is not quite it

    and I wouldn't want wes to be playing the same things (or nearly) on a different instrument

    but its certainly not just their 'tone' that is relevant - it's what used to be called their 'conception' too

    and bird's is it for me (which is not remotely original of course)

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I think the issue is hearing melody you like, whatever the instrument.

    The classic archtop guitar, straight into the amp, is not well suited to imitate a saxophone. But, substitute a guitar with more sustain, process the sound to reduce the pick attack, maybe swell with a volume pedal here and there, add some reverb, and the horn lines can sound good on guitar, depending on the horn player you're imitating.

    Then, there are lines that lay easily on guitar and a lot of players employ them. The same is true of horns. I recall bringing an original to a jam and hearing a saxophonist say, "a horn player didn't write this" -- because of jumps in the melody.
    I've never tried anything like this - just the archtop straight into the amp. I've never even been tempted. Christian posted a vid. of M Moreno the other day and I couldn't stand his sound - and that was just a slightly modern archtop sound.

    and I'm not remotely interested insounding like a horn. the issues of phrasing that are under discussion apply to piano just as much as to the horns. it's not instrument-specific. it's about sound only inasmuch as swing and feel are connected to sound.

  10. #59

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    Pianists have to learn from horn players. Horn players from piano.

    Guitarists get the scraps.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad

    and I'm not remotely interested insounding like a horn. the issues of phrasing that are under discussion apply to piano just as much as to the horns. it's not instrument-specific. it's about sound only inasmuch as swing and feel are connected to sound.
    To me the trick is not so much to sound like a horn, but to phrase like a horn player (or a vocalist scatting, say) would; letting some notes linger, cutting others short, getting the execution of the notes/tones to evoke the ease of conversation - as if the tone/notes were words, ordinary everyday words located in a nexus of rhythm and pitch. It's another level of abstraction that engages the mind at multiple levels, not least of which is the pleasure of auditory stimulation.

    For me a horn-like tone - warm, vibrant, sustaining (but not too much) and dynamic really helps me to get out of my own way and just let the music speak from my heart.
    Keeping the lyrics of the tune in mind doesn't hurt, nor does respecting (but not genuflecting to) the rhythms of the words, as a jumping-off point.
    My trademark ballad tone, dubbed "The Sax O'Fender" by a friend, involves a tube amp at edge-of-breakup, gain riding, and an agile pick policy to work; when it does, it's magical, when it doesn't, it's still pretty good, at least for me.

  12. #61

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    Haven't seen it discussed all that much in this context.

    Some guitarists play in ways which I think could be covered pretty well on piano. Some players I really like strike me that way. They can play fast, even notes, each ringing out clearly/individually and without the sort of expressive devices which are not available on piano.

    Other players don't do that. They're more interested in the expressive devices (if that term works). It's about sliding, shaking, pulling, snapping, bending and processing with pedalboards like look like cockpits on a jet.

    My view is that players "should" (should is an odd word to apply to music, mea culpa) consider what gear and technique is going to support their self-expression most fully. Perhaps the most productive two or three hours I ever spent in the practice room was when I sat down with a Boss ME70 (which I'd had for years and the ME50 before it) and decided to find the tone I could hear in my head when I soloed. No, I didn't match it, but I got close enough that self-expression improved, at least in my evaluation of my sound.

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    Wes is all on his own in guitar wonderland (but he's okay he's got his axe)

    but he's the only guitarist who I love in the same way I love bird and bud and sonny and bill

    and I don't love him as a guitarist - or the others as instrumentalists - it's what they play and the way they play it that counts
    What they play is their instruments... This is like saying you love Ella but not as a singer. What else have you heard her do?

  14. #63

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    I have not read the thread thoroughly. For ME it’s never been about trying to sound like a pianist or horn player. That would never really work. For ME it was ALWAYS about getting the sound of the language in my head, so to speak. The language I preferred and what sounded most jazz to me was exemplified by players like Clifford Brown, Herbie, Red Garland, Oscar, Miles, Trane, Rollins, Freddie, Chick, Jarrett, Cedar - those guys. I think my playing of jazz, being improv, originates in my head, so to speak. So that’s where I tried to cultivate the sound of my language. Not by copying, but by listening.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  15. #64

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    Thread hijack ...

    Several times in the last 55 years, I've fallen in love with somebody else's tone - and sometimes couldn't resist the impulse to get the same gear.

    Santana -- I bought a Mesa Boogie. That sort of worked.

    Mark Knopfler and a friend of mine who gets great tone -- I got a Stratocaster. Sounded nothing like them.

    Wes -- love the tone, but I never tried to duplicate it because I find the L5 a little too big.

    Jim Hall -- love his sound, but it's not gear -- it's his harmony and touch. That said, I've never had 175 P90 in my hands - unfortunately.

    When I searched for my own sound, I was probably most influenced by Santana. I wanted the high notes to be thick, sustained and to scream. But, I didn't want the distortion, so I got the thickness in the high notes by adding the note an octave lower. I also got a Comins GCS-1 and an LJ, both of which facilitate getting that thick high note. I don't think anybody could guess, from hearing me play, what I imagine are my influences.

    It's not a typical approach to jazz guitar, but, at some point, I think you have to find the sound that is you -- I found that difficult because I had to give up on sounding like the players I love -- Wes, Jim, Kenny Burrell and others. I didn't do it until I got old enough to think, if I don't find my own sound now, I'll never be able to do it. I suggest to others thinking about it a little sooner than that.

  16. #65

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    this is what I mean by irrelevance - the instrument is irrelevant (from the players' perspective at least)

    Veronica Swift is making me so happy since I discovered her the day before yesterday

    whether instrumentalists are aiming for her fluidity and grace - or she is aiming for their facility - doesn't seem to matter when you hear her.

    it's the freedom she embodies that one aims for - and that's freedom from the mechanics of the way you happen to do it - and freedom from an inability to hear what's there



    and she can really fly



    utterly irresistible - you can hear the smile in everything she sings
    Last edited by Groyniad; 11-11-2020 at 04:42 AM.

  17. #66

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    I often think one of the biggest impediments to guitarists developing their own sound is having money

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    i often think one of the biggest impediments to guitarists developing their own sound is having money
    lol!

  19. #68

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    Reminds of the Greg Fishman Etudes from a few years ago; also adapted to guitar. A nice little book/CD package


  20. #69

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    That IS a Greg Fishman etude.

  21. #70

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    I think this issue depends mainly on how we come into this music. If our first love is the guitar, then it seems crazy to study jazz guitar and not focus on guitar players, guitar technique, etc. But if our first love was the music itself, and guitar was essentially the instrument we had at hand, maybe that person would not feel driven to focus on guitar players and issues.

    I hope I can learn from all instruments, but my first love and passion unapologetically is the guitar. I don't want to say "Wow he sounds like a horn player." I would like (in my fantasy!) to have people say "Why can't more horn players sound like guitarists!"

    So I guess I'll keep listening to and studying guitar players.

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    That IS a Greg Fishman etude.
    I know. The start of this thread was a post about Chad Lefcowitz Brown instructional etudes. Chad's remind me of Fishman's. There is a long thread her picking apart Fishman's Bb blues etude.

  23. #72

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    and - in particular - phrasing or 'articulation'

    and more particularly this whole thing of

    a) stressing downbeats ascending - upbeats descending
    b) slurring into the chord tones both ascending and descending (saxologic sets this out beautifully)

    this is not instrument specific - it's the most natural phrase pattern in jazz at least

    (try slurring from 1 to 2 and then from 3 to 4 starting on a downbeat. doesn't work at all. because you're not moving into the chord tones in the right sort of way)

    string changing issues and 'position playing' tend to make it much harder to phrase naturally like this on guitar

    - if people feel the guitar is being criticised (how could one do that meaningfully?) one could stress that what you could call the 'move-ability' of everything you do on guitar is hugely helpful musically...

    because I learned the positions when I started - and everything I've done since has had to be more or less fitted into these positions - I have never been able to sustain this natural slurring-into-chord-tones phrasing, because the positions push me into breaking up the slur-pick patterns in non-musical ways. think of all those diagrams of a major scale set out with dots on strings across the neck. if you think of the way eg. Pete Bernstein or Wes actually play, none of these fingering patterns seem to get a look in. and that's because these guys phrase well - not in a way that has been determined by the 'one finger per fret to stay in position' rule etc. etc.

    I shouldn't have said the guitar is irrelevant to learning how to play. Learning is all about engaging with the peculiarities of the instrument and making them work for you musically. It's irrelevant from the point of view of performance or playing because then you're using it as a tool to get to the music. the reason to share Veronica Swift's scatting is to suggest that it obviously doesn't matter one bit to her that she's not playing one of the traditional instruments. She can do all the stuff they're doing without a traditional instrument.

    ps - I just spent years on developing fingering patterns and right hand techniques based on picking every note. it's not impossible that the capacities developed doing this might find some sort of musical employment - but as soon as I play a scale up to the ninth and back, phrased as saxologic sets out in his video it's obvious to me that my fingerings all have to be modified to allow me to slur in essentially this sort of way.

    the good news is that it seems to make everything way easier as well as way more musically satisfying.

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad

    ps - I just spent years on developing fingering patterns and right hand techniques based on picking every note. it's not impossible that the capacities developed doing this might find some sort of musical employment - but as soon as I play a scale up to the ninth and back, phrased as saxologic sets out in his video it's obvious to me that my fingerings all have to be modified to allow me to slur in essentially this sort of way.

    the good news is that it seems to make everything way easier as well as way more musically satisfying.
    Interesting, why do the left hand fngerings have to change to support slurring?

  25. #74

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    I've played both saxophone and guitar for many decades. They are completely and utterly different. I think you should embrace the capability and limitations of each when you play.
    Last edited by Spook410; 11-15-2020 at 01:00 AM.

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    Interesting, why do the left hand fngerings have to change to support slurring?
    because a string change forces you to 'tongue' (pick) the note on the new string (if you hammer onto it you don't get the same slur sound, but its not as bad as actually picking it)

    you need different fingering patterns ascending and descending to keep the natural slur-pattern going

    if you play through e.g. Chad's enclosure exercises without this slur-pattern in mind it doesn't really work - but if you use this slur pattern it really works

    you could quite easily pick this up on a horn without focusing on any of it - on the guitar you have to work hard with your fingerings to make it possible

    I knew people would be negative about this - but read over the thread and stop being so defensive about the guitar people!

  27. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    What they play is their instruments... This is like saying you love Ella but not as a singer. What else have you heard her do?
    I'm saying that what people say and the way they say it is more important than the instrument they happen to be using

    imagine someone reading a poem well

    now imagine someone of a different sex reading the same poem well

  28. #77

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    Sexophone

  29. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Sexophone
    have you heard Veronica Swift Christian?

  30. #79

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    i'm a horn guy. i love mobley, morgan, dorham, trane, bird, newk, mclean, dex, dolphy, grossman, etc.

    jazz guitar usually bores me. i *never* listen to players like rosenwinkel, kreisberg, lage, grasso, metheny, scofield, etc. it's not my cup of tea.

  31. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    i'm a horn guy. i love mobley, morgan, dorham, trane, bird, newk, mclean, dex, dolphy, grossman, etc.

    jazz guitar usually bores me. i *never* listen to players like rosenwinkel, kreisberg, lage, grasso, metheny, scofield, etc. it's not my cup of tea.
    you and me both (no bird on your list??). I've always listened to Wes a lot - he's the one exception for me.

    I've never thought that I have a problem copying Hank Mobley because I play guitar - though now saxologic has turned me on to this basic phrasing issue I think the stuff I work out will sound much better.

    this phrasing issue may be a large part of the reason why guitarists tend to be less musically engaging. I think Wes and Kenny Burrell, Jim Hall (Pete Bernstein), Grant Green are the guitarists who most obviously phrase in a natural way (I bet Pasquale Grasso has worked on it too - need to check him out)

  32. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    you and me both (no bird on your list??). I've always listened to Wes a lot - he's the one exception for me.

    I've never thought that I have a problem copying Hank Mobley because I play guitar - though now saxologic has turned me on to this basic phrasing issue I think the stuff I work out will sound much better.

    this phrasing issue may be a large part of the reason why guitarists tend to be less musically engaging. I think Wes and Kenny Burrell, Jim Hall (Pete Bernstein), Grant Green are the guitarists who most obviously phrase in a natural way (I bet Pasquale Grasso has worked on it too - need to check him out)
    grant had it all figured out. imo he was also the first jazz guitarist who made effective use of the amp for phrasing purposes. and it's no wonder that drummers loved him. grasso wouldn't last 5 minutes with a drummer like blakey or elvin.

    i'm not a huge fan of books but this is a good one adressing the exact topic of this thread.

    https://www.alle-noten.de/out/pictur.../1/CE00164.jpg

  33. #82

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    Listening to and transcribing horn players =/= trying to 'do' saxophone on guitar

    I think it's entirely possible to overthink this stuff. It's not really something that can be sensibly discussed on a jazz forum because its very personal. Exercises can help cultivate the technique to phrase in different ways, but ultimately it's intuitive and based on the ears.

    Listening to other instruments is a great way to get ideas. Other people would rather imitate other guitar players. Many people go through phases? Pat Metheny started off copying Wes, but he was influenced by other instruments as well.

    I have to say though - if it wasn't for guitarists influenced by the saxophone and trumpet we'd all be playing chord solos still. The single note thing comes from an impulse to play like a horn. So make of that what you will.

    Anyway, I like slurring. It is natural to the guitar and sounds good. I prefer to do that now than pick every note like I did about 5 years ago. I like the way you can get more phrasing in the line. Jim Hall, Wes Montgomery, Grant Green and Jimmy Raney all used slurs a lot.... If people want to pick every note that's cool too, but it gives you a different type of phrasing.

    On sax, I hear it like the difference between Parker, say, and Dexter Gordon. Raney reminds me of the former, (early) Pat Martino reminds me more of the latter.

    Technically, the most important thing, and one of the key areas to work on with many guitar players, is to maintain a legato line. Django and Charlie Christian could do this just as much as Gilad Hekselman or Mike Moreno. It means paying attention to the way the notes join up. However you achieve this is up to you. Pat Martino sound legato even though he picks every note, because he has great hook up between the two hands, for example.

    You want to be able to have one note sounding at a time without too much of a gap between notes or over-ring between strings (electric is less forgiving here than acoustic). It doesn't matter how you do this so much, but you probably will need to work on this if its not something you've thought about. However you do it, you need to work on synching the two hands.

    I would say; if you've only listened to jazz guitar, your grasp of the music is likely to be quite limited. But if you want to play Wes tunes in an organ trio, or Gypsy jazz, or whatever, does it matter?

    This might sound odd as people probably think of me as straight-ahead jazzer; but it wasn't actually the guitar that drew me personally to jazz. I got into jazz through horn players and I liked the way McCoy Tyner played piano. Jazz guitarists always sounded a bit boring to me at first, though I liked Django, Charlie Christian, John McLaughlin and Allan Holdsworth, who sounded less noodly and insipid to me than the 50/60s guys.

    This is not what I think now, obviously... But even now I hear non-guitarist jazz musicians say that sort of thing, actually. These players play great, so this is not coming from a place of ignorance, but rather one of taste... straight ahead jazz guitar is kind of a niche if you've listened to the tonal possibilities rock and post-rock players offer. (I'm always happy to strap on a tele and go at it with some pedals. Drive gets you more in the horn ballpark, of course.)

    So, I was never that interested in copying Wes at the age of 19. And, I think that was fine. People sound the way they do because of who they listen to.

  34. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    grant had it all figured out. imo he was also the first jazz guitarist who made effective use of the amp for phrasing purposes. and it's no wonder that drummers loved him. grasso wouldn't last 5 minutes with a drummer like blakey or elvin.

    i'm not a huge fan of books but this is a good one adressing the exact topic of this thread.

    https://www.alle-noten.de/out/pictur.../1/CE00164.jpg
    Yep. No disrespect to Pasquale. But the way those guys played wouldn't have allowed Pasquale's way of playing. (BTW Pasquale sets his amp to sit slightly under the level of the drums when playing live which is very interesting.)

    Grant's playing just cuts through, has that edge. I find myself coming back to him more and more. The amp sound, as you say.... I think he got that from Charlie Christian's tone.

    Furthermore, the people I have found most enthusiastic about Grant are not guitar players, but horn players and drummers. They hear his playing in a different way to guitarists. Grant is no-ones idea of a guitarist's guitarist. It's easy to lose sight of how irrelevant a lot of the things we obsess over are to players of other instruments.

    So; is Grant a horn influenced or guitaristic player? To which the answer is yes. Just as it is for Wes, Charlie Christian, Django, Allan, Raney et al.

  35. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    have you heard Veronica Swift Christian?
    Well, she's clearly never listened to horn players being a singer. (jk)

  36. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Technically, the most important thing, and one of the key areas to work on with many guitar players, is to maintain a legato line.
    many very good points. but i would totally disagree with the above sentence.

    i think that one of the most fundamental aspects of jazz phrasing is that the notes need to be separated from each other.

  37. #86

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    I think the reason saxologic has managed to set out something very general that isn't particularly personal about jazz phrasing - the 'slip into the chord tones phrasing pattern' (if you like), and the stress on downbeats ascending and upbeats descending - is that he's done a whole load of classical sax, and he has learned what it is that accomplished classical sax players consistently tend to get wrong, the thing that tends to stop them sounding good.

    what has stopped me getting this consistently (even though most of the best things I play will tend to fall in with it) is that whenever I work anything out or put something together I have to shoe-horn it into one or other known fingering position. and I do this, not just for something like convenience - but because it's only the position-fingerings that tell me where the bloody notes are on the guitar.

    already after just two days of working out fingerings that allow me to slip into the chord tones from below (ascending) and above (descending) - the instrument feels very different and everything sounds more natural. I don't care that it's a daunting task to internalise new fingering patterns - because I'm so bored of phrasing in unmusical ways. the other hugely positive thing about this is that it gives you a reason to favour one set of fingering patterns over all the other possible ones (which you have to exclude somehow because they bog you down in endless, pointless, equivalences).

    Saxologic starts by considering how the Parker phrase would sound if you slurred all of it (something we would find very hard to do but which is easy on wind instruments) - he doesn't even consider the possibility of playing it ALL tongued (picked)! If you slur out of the chord tones instead of into them (1-2; 3-4; 5-6) it sounds crap. And when you have this slurring pattern setting the basic phrase-framework you're hitting the change in a whole new groovier and less wooden way.

    who has tried the relevant phrasing pattern and found:

    that they already do it
    or
    that they don't already do it but aren't interested in it?

  38. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    many very good points. but i would totally disagree with the above sentence.

    i think that one of the most fundamental aspects of jazz phrasing is that the notes need to be separated from each other.
    I'm talking about technique.

  39. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    already after just two days of working out fingerings that allow me to slip into the chord tones from below (ascending) and above (descending) - the instrument feels very different and everything sounds more natural. I don't care that it's a daunting task to internalise new fingering patterns - because I'm so bored of phrasing in unmusical ways. the other hugely positive thing about this is that it gives you a reason to favour one set of fingering patterns over all the other possible ones (which you have to exclude somehow because they bog you down in endless, pointless, equivalences).
    absolutely. the good thing is, jazz phrasing is a percentage play. if your phrasing is good in general you can get away with the occasional slur into the off-beat. see 60s pat martino (like with stitt and patterson) who attacks less notes than people think. the solos on donna lee or now's the time are fantastic studies in hard-bop phrasing.

  40. #89

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    Interesting. I bow to your superior knowledge on Pat! I assume he picked every note.... all of which kind of underlines the point really .

  41. #90

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    Scale outlines
    I tend to do like this:

    ascending accent the first of the four note groupings (beat 1 and beat 3) and for descending accent mostly “+”

    i agree with accenting downbeats when ascending and accenting upbeats when descending. But to a different degree. I prefer to be very subtle when doing the accents on downbeats and less subtle on upbeat accents. If I accent as heavily on the accents ascending it sounds corny to me, like Lawrence Welk swing. Thus accenting the first of four note groupings on the downbeats smooths it out.

    What do do you think about that?

  42. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Interesting. I bow to your superior knowledge on Pat! I assume he picked every note.... all of which kind of underlines the point really .

    pat attacked more notes as his career progressed into fusion and rock territory. i guess he started out picking almost everything as a kid in his johnny smith phase, then applied wes' phrasing around the time he was with willis jackson (he paraphrases wes' solo on satin doll for example) and went to attacking more notes during his "sunny" and "along came betty" phase.










  43. #92

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    but ultimately none of this matters, because some of the best jazz phrasing is played on the hammond organ, where there is no slurring or tonguing. it's also non-legato.

    edit: man, that eddie mcfadden solo is so good, that's the jazz guitar i love. bouncing, yet so comfortably behind the beat. non-legato. mcfadden captured bird's spirit like few other guitarists, he's so underrated.


  44. #93

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    in general I've always been so concerned with what to play that I've put way too little energy into how to play it - how to 'articulate' it (picked/notpicked).

    getting clear - thanks to Chad and Saxologic - that there is a whole stress and slur pattern (an articulation pattern) that is rhythmically natural and that differentiates between an ascending feel and a descending feel: this is fascinating stuff. (Chad gave examples from both Pres and Dexter - and made very confident claims about how basic and widespread it is.) It suddenly gives me musical reasons (not just fretboard geometry reasons) to move one way rather than another on the fret board - and it feels punchy at the same time as being smoother.

    sliding into chord tones the whole time is a big deal too - both in terms of time feel and harmony

    and I'm immediately cutting the number of times the pick hits the string in half

  45. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    and I'm immediately cutting the number of times the pick hits the string in half
    downstrokes...

  46. #95

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    I always feel the accented upbeats descending.

    However, I’m not so sure I play and feel accented downbeats in ascending lines. Perhaps it’s a minimum or no accenting of the upbeats in the ascending lines. Or perhaps simply accenting the first eight note in groups of four eighth notes.

  47. #96

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    I finally watched the Chad vid, sorry I din't before it's hard for me to watch vids ATM.

    Been talking a bit at cross purposes. Sorry the Moreno thing doesn't address what Chad is talking about at all.

    It's interesting what he says - if I do this already (which I think I might do?) it's something I intuit more than I have thought about.

    (Probably like most?) I learn solos by singing phrases. When I sing the phrases I connect the scat syllables the way that seems to reflect the phrasing to me. I then put them on guitar in whatever way feels most natural to the shape of the phrase. I've done a fair amount of classic sax stuff; the two examples he plays I know from the record a few years back, and sing with that phrasing, although it's not something I'd ever thought about.

    Technically, its more important to teach most students to feel accents on the upbeat than the downbeat, because they can usually already do the latter. The aim of accenting the ands as an exercise is not to teach players to always accent upbeats, but rather bring the upbeat up to the level of importance of the downbeat in the musical mind of the player. Similarly, we teach legato on the guitar because it's harder to do for most students than detached articulation (see above.) Most beginners play detached, right?

    So it's just an exercise to develop control. In combination with lots and lots of listening, it should allow players to hear and apply the appropriate accents and articulations. But it can be useful to have things like this pointed out. The better you get the more you hear...

    So, I say this because I thought I just accented mostly upbeats because that's what I had practiced. But - playing some lines on the guitar. I do seem to accent the downbeats on ascending figures. But, of course I'm now aware of it! For me its more a hearing thing than a technique thing, although using slurs etc can bring out the detail, the most important thing is to audiate the phrasing.

    So let me put it this way - if I don't already do it, I think it would be natural to make the transition to doing it.

    As a theory it seems fun, and I'll listen out for it.
    Last edited by christianm77; 11-11-2020 at 07:53 PM.

  48. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    because a string change forces you to 'tongue' (pick) the note on the new string (if you hammer onto it you don't get the same slur sound, but its not as bad as actually picking it)

    you need different fingering patterns ascending and descending to keep the natural slur-pattern going

    if you play through e.g. Chad's enclosure exercises without this slur-pattern in mind it doesn't really work - but if you use this slur pattern it really works

    you could quite easily pick this up on a horn without focusing on any of it - on the guitar you have to work hard with your fingerings to make it possible

    I knew people would be negative about this - but read over the thread and stop being so defensive about the guitar people!
    I'm not being negative about it. Thanks for the explanation.

    I guess there are few lines where I would try to emulate a sax, but not many. Some would say that trying to follow a slippery sax around on the guitar is a fools errand, and others would just say it's a ..... choice.

    I really loved Holdsworth's playing but I would never want to emulate him. Speaking as a listener, all that legato playing begins to bore me after awhile, but that's just me. To each his own.

    But - approach notes and enclosures are a valuable study regardless.

  49. #98

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    Test: Run the Barry Harris “scale outlines”, meaning play scales in eighth notes up to the 7th on a bunch of medium
    tempo swing tunes. And try accenting the down beats. I think it sounds better not to accent them... except maybe on strong beats 1 and on beat 3 (Coltrane style 4 notes groupings.
    Accenting all the downbeats in the scale when ascending scale sounds ridiculous, IMO. I have been listening to the Chad’s video and I notice he doesn’t systematically accent the downbeats when ascending. He does a mix of both. So I am puzzled why he claims it is some great secret.
    Last edited by rintincop; 11-11-2020 at 09:12 PM.

  50. #99

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    As with pretty much all ‘rules’ and ‘theory’ in jazz probably best to view this is a guideline or helpful practice exercise rather than a cast iron rule.

    There is no jazz theory really; only jazz advice, because the sounding music itself is definitive, and theoretical ideas always represent a distillation of the real thing through the filter of that particular musician’s ears and sensibility.

    Chad LB clearly found it helpful to practice this. And he’s quite good at saxophone you know :-)

    His phrasing on the etudes fits what I would think as idiomatic bop; and if you start to feel that pitches, rhythms and accents are all interconnected parts of the language you are on the right track IMO. Just like spoken language, stress and prosody are as important as the pronunciation of individual syllables.

    For bop phrasing especially in Parker, I’d look out for accents that fit the clave as well.

  51. #100

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    I'm glad you recognise something important in it Christian. I totally agree that after listening obsessively for so long and playing so much we do it a lot of the time without realising it. but I think when I sound wooden and typewriter-esque I'm not doing it.

    I learned guitar in the most horribly self-conscious way starting at about 22 - I had nothing but Ted Greene's seven (six?) positions etc. etc. - and they have provided the fret-board-framework I've been working with ever since. This phrasing advice (or this observation about a prevalent characteristic of the music) cuts right through all my positions and generates much more flowing sounding and better accented lines.

    he's some player - I'm blown away. I love how he brings Hank Mobley and Sonny together - and his enclosure/approach tone exercises are very powerful I think.

    I'm also - incidentally - blown away by Benny Benack (III) and Veronica Swift (my close friend who plays bass in New York turned me on to these last two last week. he thinks Veronica is the most exciting young thing in town - I find it hard to imagine how anyone could be more exciting!)

    but I love their phrasing - all three of them. it's great for me to hear young guys/girls who seem to have the same attitude towards bird, Clifford and sonny (et. al) as I do.