The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Made a couple of edits to post #13 above.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Bug or Feature?

    More and more I think about that. There are some players who can do it all.

    But, if there's something you can't do, it doesn't have to be a bug, you might make it a feature.

    Wes said he couldn't get a satisfactory sound with a pick. He didn't use his left pinkie for single note lines. Bugs or features?

    Charlie Christian played all downstrokes.

    Jim Hall isn't a speed demon.

    BB King didn't play much rhythm guitar, so he found other things to do.

    Jimmy Bruno (who can probably do anything) played a great solo on a video when limiting himself only to the notes of a major scale, or maybe it was a major seventh chord.

    I wonder if a lot of us are so focused on what we can't do -- and so focused on overcoming weaknesses, that we gloss over what we can do and don't focus on extending our existing abilities. Not that there isn't a place for new abilities, of course.

    That is, we focus on filling holes rather than building mountains.

  4. #28

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    I think the art of improvising started with musicians playing the written melody. Maybe they couldn't read or maybe after memorizing the melody they would slightly change it with a few notes here or there.

    You have to follow your ear when improvising. You have to intentionally play a "wrong" note and spontaneously hear a way to follow up with something that sounds good. How far one can get from diatonic to chromatic and make it sound good varies.

    Improvising can be learned to a point but it can be difficult and awkward for those that have always read everything they play. There are many tricks and devices that can be used that I find similar to the elements of art. Those devices are pretty much covered in other threads on this site.

  5. #29

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  6. #30

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    Are you trying to play ideas but are not happy with the results? Or are you failing to come up with ideas? I think of it (oversimplified I’m sure) as a three-part process: (1) Your musical imagination comes up with ideas (2) your “ear” maps the notes to your instrument and (3) your well-trained fingers play the notes served up from your imagination via your ear.

    There can be bottlenecks on any step, and I think they need to be dealt with in order: with scant ideas you are reduced to playing patterns and thinking about scales, with weak ears you are frustrated because you can’t “find” the notes you are imagining, and with weak chops (my particular issue) you can’t keep up with your ideas.

    Thinking about it his way may help you identify where the blockage is.

  7. #31

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    People have improvised since the beginning of time. The first music must have been an improvisation.

    It probably doesn’t occur to most people in the world who do this to have a name for it. We don’t think of having a name for making up sentences as opposed to reading from a script. And that realisation may help us with regard to working out how we might learn it. Or how Andreas Varady learned it.

    (certainly we don’t give babies a grammar lesson and expect them to construct sentences. Even adult language classes teach sentences, vocabulary, pronunciation and aural alongside grammar. Although everyone agrees the only way to really learn a language is immersion.)

    Classical musicians are highly skilled artisans trained to only ever play with the reference to a score. The cultural dominance of classical music in education even today may blind us as to how weird this is. Unlike EVERY other musical tradition in the world classical training discourages it’s students from inventing music (unless they compose, in which case they are Special and Different), so when they see normal music making and can’t do it, they have to have a word for it - Improvisation - which is both needlessly technical and tells us nothing.

    I suggest we use the term ‘conversational music’. Say you want to be conversational in jazz. Well no one expects a French student to be able to converse day one. You may start by ordering a coffee. Something where you have stock phrases and responses.

    So - listen to phrases, copy, learn the meaning or context (such as what chord progression the line goes over, the song), work on ‘pronunciation’ and start to put them together.

    Focus on doing music well. Don’t sweat the process. Too many doing that on JGO. That can always wait until you can actually play.

  8. #32

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    Remember - the human brain wants to improvise. All you have to do is feed it raw materials and ensure those materials are properly internalised.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

    I wonder if a lot of us are so focused on what we can't do -- and so focused on overcoming weaknesses, that we gloss over what we can do and don't focus on extending our existing abilities. Not that there isn't a place for new abilities, of course.

    That is, we focus on filling holes rather than building mountains.
    This exactly what I think about the whole situation.
    I remember having a blast improvising on some D chord when I was 14. Then the same thing happened with a simple pentatonic over blues. No experience or "vocabulary" - great fun.
    But most of the time the ambitions ruin everything.

    For me, ranking the most joy from music is 5.listening something extremely good 4.playing something good at home 3. playing with my band with happy audience 2. finding something neat when composing 1.improvising when having some inspiration.
    That last one is so rare but is the ultimate feeling. Best thing ever. Completely worth the obsession and trouble.. when it finally happens. But so rare that I often forget about why even bother

  10. #34

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    I've read through this thread a couple of times, and keep coming back to the OP saying he can improvise on other instruments but not on guitar (at least not to his satisfaction). This actually seems like a pretty unusual problem to me. This speaks to there being something specific to the way he plays guitar getting in the way, rather than it being a problem with improvisation per se. Or maybe not even that -- maybe it's more that what he can do on the mandolin just sounds displeasing to him when he executes it on the guitar. The only thing I can imagine that would help this would be spending more time on the guitar and less on the other instruments (or none at all) for an extended period of time until some sort guitar improvisation fluency kicks in (or it just starts sounding better). I mean if he is as strong technically as he indicates on the guitar, and as good an improvisor on the other instruments as he indicates, then should be able to somehow map what he does on the one to the other, and then maybe work on articulation and tone to get it sounding more satisfyingly guitar-y.

    John

  11. #35

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    Yes I didn’t understand that either. My son has got a cheap mandolin and I had a go on it for a couple of weeks or so, just for fun. Despite the different tuning and the tiny frets, I was able to figure out some basic bebop lines on it after a few days, and play them (admittedly rather slowly and awkwardly). But there didn’t seem to be any reason why at least some of my improvising ability on one instrument couldn’t be transferred to the other, given enough time and effort.

  12. #36
    Thanks for all the responses and suggestions; there are definitely some good ideas here that I will try out. With regard to why I can improvise on the mandolin and bass but not on the guitar, well that is the central issue. I have a couple of ideas as to why this is the case, but they're just a guess. With the bass, I don't really do any complicated improvisation; I play a bass line and don't try to turn that into what should be played on the guitar. I believe that the bass should be the foundation for the rest of the instruments, and it's up to me to keep it strong and well defined. With bass I feel that "less is more". So let's talk about the comparison of the guitar and the mandolin.

    1) The tuning is different; the mandolin is tuned like a violin, which if I am correct is tuned in 5ths. The guitar (except for the B string) is tuned in 4ths. While I have been playing the guitar a lot longer than the mandolin, the mandolin just makes sense to me. When I am looking for a melody line it just sort of naturally falls under my fingers. The same is true when I improvise, it's just there without thinking about it too much.

    2) Most of my mandolin playing has been in Bluegrass music. Bluegrass songs do have some sheet music available, but I find that most of the songs are greatly affected by individual feel and few players use sheet music. As a result, I have been forced to learn many of the songs by following the chord progression, and finding the melody line within that structure. Theoretically this same process will work on the guitar, and I can usually find the melody by fumbling around, but it's just so much easier to read the sheet music. For some reason however, the improvisation part on the guitar just doesn't click for me. Believe me when I say this has been a significant frustration for me over the years.

    The instructor I studied with for many years believed strongly that a good reader is a good musician who, because of their reading skills, can play anything. He stressed the ability to read as a major part of his teaching. And I agree with that, however I think there are times when being a strong reader inhibits your creative juices. Many of the people I play with do not read music, but are still excellent players. If I can find the sheet music for solo improvisations I can play them with no trouble, and maybe that's part of what I should do.

    Thanks again for all of your responses, and keep them coming.

    One_Dude

  13. #37

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    Improvisation can improve a lot with study and practice. There are no shortcuts to being good.

    I know a lot of great sight readers who can’t do anything else on an instrument. Depends on your definition of “good musician”.

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by one_dude
    1) The tuning is different; the mandolin is tuned like a violin, which if I am correct is tuned in 5ths. The guitar (except for the B string) is tuned in 4ths. While I have been playing the guitar a lot longer than the mandolin, the mandolin just makes sense to me. When I am looking for a melody line it just sort of naturally falls under my fingers. The same is true when I improvise, it's just there without thinking about it too much.
    I had violin and piano lessons forced on me at an early age. While I resented it at the time I'm glad now, cos it essentially 'gave' me two instruments that I wouldn't have voluntarily chosen to learn.

    I totally hear you about mandolin/violin tuning. The fact that the guitar is unevenly tuned does make playing scales on it and improvising on it more of a challenge than a mandolin or violin or any other evenly-tuned instrument. If, as I have, evenly tuned 5ths is how your brain is used to thinking, then you have that extra hump to get over. But more than that - I started Suzuki method violin age 6 and piano age 8, so I know the piano keyboard and violin fingerboard in a way I probably never will with the guitar's fretboard. There's just loads of hours of playing and lessons at a really formative age when your brain is absorbing stuff: I don't have the same understanding when it comes to guitar.

    That said, I can cope with single-note guitar improvising and I think if I stuck to just single-note I could make some much faster progress. But I'm more interested in chord-melody improvising, as I'm a solo player at heart. It's going to take a while...

  15. #39

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    Sounds like you need to put away the sheet music for a long time and force yourself to find where the melodies are on the guitar, by ear, despite the tuning difference. Sort of the same process I was doing when fumbling around on the mandolin. For me the Mando tuning was weird, not the guitar tuning!

    It should get easier eventually, as I said above, I was beginning to get more familiar with the note positions on the mandolin after a week or two. I guess I was starting to build up a ‘mental map’ of the fingerboard, like I already have on the guitar.

    I think you just need to keep at it however long it takes and however little progress you seem to be making. Like a lot of things in jazz!

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by one_dude
    T
    The instructor I studied with for many years believed strongly that a good reader is a good musician who, because of their reading skills, can play anything. He stressed the ability to read as a major part of his teaching. And I agree with that, however I think there are times when being a strong reader inhibits your creative juices. Many of the people I play with do not read music, but are still excellent players. If I can find the sheet music for solo improvisations I can play them with no trouble, and maybe that's part of what I should do.
    I can certainly see that having good reading skills can provide a very effective way of visualizing musical information. That unlocks a whole another part of the brain to contribute to the musical abilities and practice techniques.

    I think we all visualize music one way or another. Most of us, for whom reading isn't second nature, visualize pitches on our instruments or as numbers. We can visualize rhythmic information in a variety of different ways. Music notation might be more elegant but not the only way.

    Other than that, I don't see a very satisfying link between reading skills and improvisation skills.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 09-18-2020 at 09:16 AM.

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by one_dude
    Thanks for all the responses and suggestions; there are definitely some good ideas here that I will try out. With regard to why I can improvise on the mandolin and bass but not on the guitar, well that is the central issue. I have a couple of ideas as to why this is the case, but they're just a guess. With the bass, I don't really do any complicated improvisation; I play a bass line and don't try to turn that into what should be played on the guitar. I believe that the bass should be the foundation for the rest of the instruments, and it's up to me to keep it strong and well defined. With bass I feel that "less is more". So let's talk about the comparison of the guitar and the mandolin.

    1) The tuning is different; the mandolin is tuned like a violin, which if I am correct is tuned in 5ths. The guitar (except for the B string) is tuned in 4ths. While I have been playing the guitar a lot longer than the mandolin, the mandolin just makes sense to me. When I am looking for a melody line it just sort of naturally falls under my fingers. The same is true when I improvise, it's just there without thinking about it too much.

    2) Most of my mandolin playing has been in Bluegrass music. Bluegrass songs do have some sheet music available, but I find that most of the songs are greatly affected by individual feel and few players use sheet music. As a result, I have been forced to learn many of the songs by following the chord progression, and finding the melody line within that structure. Theoretically this same process will work on the guitar, and I can usually find the melody by fumbling around, but it's just so much easier to read the sheet music. For some reason however, the improvisation part on the guitar just doesn't click for me. Believe me when I say this has been a significant frustration for me over the years.

    The instructor I studied with for many years believed strongly that a good reader is a good musician who, because of their reading skills, can play anything. He stressed the ability to read as a major part of his teaching. And I agree with that, however I think there are times when being a strong reader inhibits your creative juices. Many of the people I play with do not read music, but are still excellent players. If I can find the sheet music for solo improvisations I can play them with no trouble, and maybe that's part of what I should do.

    Thanks again for all of your responses, and keep them coming.

    One_Dude
    It's a useful skill to be able to read to get work, but playing by ear is more important for most improvised traditions. Great working musicians often have great ears and improvisational ability and great reading; it's not a zero sum game. But you do have to spend time on different skills.

    Beware technical methods for improvisation - I honestly think you need to work on the aural side of your musicianship, and while that might be intimidating at first, it will get easier. Listen to players you like and learn lines you hear. Pay attention to what chords they play certain things over, and go from there.

  18. #42

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    Dude -

    Look, we all have trouble with improvising, that's what it's all about. You have to work it out, that's all.

    I did write a fairly long thing early on but didn't post it. Obviously the main thing is that the mandolin is tuned differently to the guitar. Really, the guitar is a whole different ball game. Mandolin isn't really a jazz instrument. I know Grisman gave it a good shot but it's not really jazz as jazzers understand it. The technique for mandolin isn't the same.

    Bluegrass bass is pretty simple usually, one and five and the odd connecting run. Jazz bass is, again, a wholly different world. Listening to, say, Niels-Henning Ørsted Pedersen, Mingus, Ray Brown, or many excellent others would show that.

    So, whereas all music is music, jazz guitar probably has to be understood for itself. I don't claim to have mastered it and I don't know many who have. I can only recommend much listening to good players.

  19. #43

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    While we're philosophizing about improvisation instead of working on it I will just say that I couldn't disagree more with those who would tell you to beware of "technical" methods for improvisation.

    Some people will tell you the same thing about learning music theory, going to music school, etc., etc. It is apparent that some people simply have an aversion to organized disciplined study when it comes to music. Furthermore, the guitar is traditionally a casual, informal, folk, gypsy instrument, so it's no surprise when guitarists in particular eschew formal study.


    Here are a few thoughts regarding learning the art of jazz improvisation:

    1. If you want to jam on one chord at a time, playing any diatonic stuff that comes out and sounds half decent, knock yourself out. But don't count on learning or effectively expressing the jazz language that way.

    2. If you want to do likewise over more rapidly changing harmonies? Same thing - except you will likely be much less successful.

    3. If you want to play by ear and copy jazz solos one at a time while waiting for that magic day when suddenly "poof!" you can do it too without having any idea how or why, knock yourself out. But don't count on that happening in any kind of satisfying time frame - if ever. If one wanted to invent a jazz improvisation "method" that would maximize the probablity of most people quitting, this would probably be it. One has to be "all in" for this path. (A few are, of course).

    Historically speaking, the biggest shortcomings in jazz improv studies - in my opionion - are that (1) there are huge gaps in the educational material, and (2) effective methods for beginning improvisors are lacking. Those who are just learning to tread water suddenly find themselves thrown into a rip tide with great white sharks. These gaps need to be filled in, and with stepwise increases in difficulty.

    Traditional "methods" for learning jazz improvisation were pretty spotty, and still are to a large extent. But - a lot of progress has been made in the teaching of this art/skill over the past few decades, just as is the case for many other human endeavors. For example - this website has material. The study group thread working on Garrison Fewell's book has material. And there is other insightful and useful material (Bert Ligon's "Connecting Chords with Linear Harmony", etc., etc.)
    It's just that almost all of the material out there is subject-oriented - like a seminar - and not connected to anything resembling a comprehenive, stepwise, learning path. So the student (and teachers) are left to cobble it all together.

    Even the widely accepted/established notion of "Imitate, Assimilate, Innovate" is a bit old by now, and the Assimilate step involves analysis so that one can understand the details and content of the jazz language. Is that "technical"? Maybe. But so what?

    I remember an interview with John McLaughlin some years ago where he was discussing his self-studies and the herculean level of work that it involved, and so on. He then said something to the effect of "I suppose you could learn it faster if you went to some school". He was right.

    It's a hurry up world we live in now. Productivity and efficiency are very important. There is no reason to make something take much longer than needed, be very difficult to work with, and produce less effective results than could otherwise be the case.

    But it's a free country as they say, one can choose to ignore all that.
    Last edited by GTRMan; 09-18-2020 at 04:04 PM.

  20. #44

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    I think you're absolutely right but it seems you have no real answer either. Or do you?

  21. #45

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    oh yeah, i have an idea. its just my personal take on some well known methods out there, nothing surprising about it. the focus is on beginning to low-intermediate improvisors.

  22. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Dude -

    Look, we all have trouble with improvising, that's what it's all about. You have to work it out, that's all.

    I did write a fairly long thing early on but didn't post it. Obviously the main thing is that the mandolin is tuned differently to the guitar. Really, the guitar is a whole different ball game. Mandolin isn't really a jazz instrument. I know Grisman gave it a good shot but it's not really jazz as jazzers understand it. The technique for mandolin isn't the same.

    Bluegrass bass is pretty simple usually, one and five and the odd connecting run. Jazz bass is, again, a wholly different world. Listening to, say, Niels-Henning Ørsted Pedersen, Mingus, Ray Brown, or many excellent others would show that.

    So, whereas all music is music, jazz guitar probably has to be understood for itself. I don't claim to have mastered it and I don't know many who have. I can only recommend much listening to good players.




    I absolutely agree with your statements: When I am playing in the Bluegrass bands, I am the mandolin player. I also play guitar on a few songs, and only play bass when our regular bass player is either not there, or is playing another instrument. My primary bass playing is in Folk Rock, and Rock music, rather than in Jazz. I play a couple of Jazz tunes that are part of our "dinner set", but in general do not play Jazz bass.

    As for guitar playing; my main focus is Jazz, with some Country when playing an acoustic guitar. Part of the problem is where I live; this is a rural community, and there is just no Jazz scene at all. You can find an occasional Jazz or Blues club or jam about 60 miles away (120 miles round trip), but I don't want to spend more time on the road than I do playing. I have done some solo playing at a local venue that has an open stage (before the lock down) once a month, and that was either Country or Bluegrass. Since the folks that run that venue are pretty nice, I may try one or two Jazz solos there if things ever open up again. For now I have been concentrating on vintage Jazz tunes that most folks who have nothing to do with Jazz will still recognize.

    Several of the suggestions from those responding are interesting and I will give those a try. Lately I have been taking the approach of concentrating on what I do best. Of course on guitar, that is not improvising, but rather playing the written melody. So the plan is to "press on" and keep trying to learn something new each day.

    Thanks again,

    One_Dude

  23. #47

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    Here's my $.02,

    In my 30+ years of teaching guitar the most common issues I find with adult students is:
    • They try to do too much at once and don't stick to simple concepts
    • They don't stay with a topic long enough so that it becomes part of their playing

    Quote Originally Posted by one_dude
    I studied jazz guitar with a great instructor and player for many years.
    Hmm, need more information. To me, there's something wrong if you study with someone that long and don't progress, especially if he was a 'great instructor'.

    Quote Originally Posted by one_dude
    I can't seem to come up with any interesting passages, and the flow of the improvisation portion of the song is dull, repetitive, and boring.
    I think sometimes we need to suspend the inner critique and just focus on learning. I suggest you try to separate these two concepts. When initially learning a new skill, say for example playing only chord tones, spend some of your time just grinding it out. Later you can record yourself improvising using only chord tones and listen back and critique it.

    Quote Originally Posted by one_dude
    Here's my question; is the ability to improvise well something you are born with, or can it be learned?
    Personally I think it can be learned. It may not be as easy to learn as an adult as it might have been as a kid, but it is possible. I think one has to decide they want to and then do the work. What's the old saying; "Whether you believe you can or you can't, you're right."

    Quote Originally Posted by one_dude
    Every time I find a new tip on improvising and try it I end up in the same stew; uninteresting, and not a good fit for the song. I hear others improvise and it sounds good and seems to fit the song, but when I analyze what they played it is not something that is complex, but is more often some simple patterns. If this is something that can be learned, and if so, can you suggest a teaching aid I can look for. Or am I just missing some process you can suggest that will turn the light bulb on for me.
    Again I'll repeat what I said in the beginning. Stick to simple concepts and work on them for a long time (aka, every day for at least 30 days, and probably more like 60-90).

    That's my opinion.

  24. #48
    I think Wes played with his thumb totally by EAR!

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana
    Here's my $.02,

    In my 30+ years of teaching guitar the most common issues I find with adult students is:
    • They try to do too much at once and don't stick to simple concepts
    • They don't stay with a topic long enough so that it becomes part of their playing


    Hmm, need more information. To me, there's something wrong if you study with someone that long and don't progress, especially if he was a 'great instructor'.


    I think sometimes we need to suspend the inner critique and just focus on learning. I suggest you try to separate these two concepts. When initially learning a new skill, say for example playing only chord tones, spend some of your time just grinding it out. Later you can record yourself improvising using only chord tones and listen back and critique it.



    Personally I think it can be learned. It may not be as easy to learn as an adult as it might have been as a kid, but it is possible. I think one has to decide they want to and then do the work. What's the old saying; "Whether you believe you can or you can't, you're right."



    Again I'll repeat what I said in the beginning. Stick to simple concepts and work on them for a long time (aka, every day for at least 30 days, and probably more like 60-90).

    That's my opinion.
    Nice post. And of course it can be “learned”.

    People need to get past any romantic notions that the greats were/are some kind of idiot savants who had music playing through them like they were some kind of mindless vessels.

    And once we are disabused of those fantasies we likewise can acknowledge that if something can be learned, it can also be taught.

    So, it’s up to teachers to do it right, it’s up to students to dig in and work, and of course talent doesn’t hurt.

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by one_dude



    I absolutely agree with your statements: When I am playing in the Bluegrass bands, I am the mandolin player. I also play guitar on a few songs, and only play bass when our regular bass player is either not there, or is playing another instrument. My primary bass playing is in Folk Rock, and Rock music, rather than in Jazz. I play a couple of Jazz tunes that are part of our "dinner set", but in general do not play Jazz bass.

    As for guitar playing; my main focus is Jazz, with some Country when playing an acoustic guitar. Part of the problem is where I live; this is a rural community, and there is just no Jazz scene at all. You can find an occasional Jazz or Blues club or jam about 60 miles away (120 miles round trip), but I don't want to spend more time on the road than I do playing. I have done some solo playing at a local venue that has an open stage (before the lock down) once a month, and that was either Country or Bluegrass. Since the folks that run that venue are pretty nice, I may try one or two Jazz solos there if things ever open up again. For now I have been concentrating on vintage Jazz tunes that most folks who have nothing to do with Jazz will still recognize.

    Several of the suggestions from those responding are interesting and I will give those a try. Lately I have been taking the approach of concentrating on what I do best. Of course on guitar, that is not improvising, but rather playing the written melody. So the plan is to "press on" and keep trying to learn something new each day.

    Thanks again,

    One_Dude

    I used to do a lot of bluegrass so I get it. Playing fiddle tunes on the guitar isn't jazz, of course. It's a pity there's nowhere for you to go jazz-wise locally but that might apply to a lot of people, and more so in the lockdown situation.

    But there's a ton of stuff if you've got the internet, which obviously you have. Start simple, start easy, pick from a recognised source that resonates with you, and off you go. There's always here to post your stuff and get feedback.

    Dive in!