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  1. #1

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    Hope you like clams 'cause there's plenty of 'em here. Knocked this off yesterday first and only pass. Could've been cleaner of course. My concern is that my feel is a little "bouncy." Seems like it's kinda baked-in at this point. Corpse had some good insights on this some time ago. A little repetitious after a while but after five minutes what can you expect? Any comments good, bad or otherwise are greatly appreciated.


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  3. #2

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    I think you sound great. It's a swing tune, the bouncy-ness works.

    I'd say the thing to watch for is a lot of time you use the same phrase length with the same space after...and maybe get some blues in there...but I think you sound great.

  4. #3

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    First of all the tone is right on, nice sound. I agree with mr b that your phrase pacing is a little regimented. Maybe because you are testing out vocabulary? I will say, encouragingly, that the parts I liked the best are likely the very parts you think you were loosing it a bit and had to engage your ear and intuition more firmly to recover and find the way back!

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I think you sound great. It's a swing tune, the bouncy-ness works. I'd say the thing to watch for is a lot of time you use the same phrase length with the same space after...and maybe get some blues in there...but I think you sound great.
    Appreciate your kind words and insights. I've noticed that my phrasing tends to be a little repetitious. I'll look to add a little more rhythmic variety to my soloing. Your suggestion to throw a little blues in there is well received. Always adds a nice flavor.

    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    First of all the tone is right on, nice sound. I agree with mr b that your phrase pacing is a little regimented. Maybe because you are testing out vocabulary? I will say, encouragingly, that the parts I liked the best are likely the very parts you think you were loosing it a bit and had to engage your ear and intuition more firmly to recover and find the way back!
    One of the things I learned early on is that I'll never be a "fast" guitarist, so instead I've concentrated on developing my tone. I had to laugh at your "regimented" observation. Couldn't disagree and that's the kind of comment I need to hear. And, again, I concur that some of the flubs and clams create opportunities if you hang in there and find a way through. Thanks for listening so closely!

  6. #5

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    I reckon it was good too, if that counts! As you say, after 5 minutes... I was listening to various versions. If you were playing with a band you'd have a little solo break. Any of your choruses would go down pretty well.

    It's always difficult playing lots one after the other but you swung along nicely. Clams don't matter, who cares? Personally, I tend to play much better when I've stopped caring, gives it that easy laid-back feel :-)

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I reckon it was good too, if that counts! As you say, after 5 minutes... I was listening to various versions. If you were playing with a band you'd have a little solo break. Any of your choruses would go down pretty well.

    It's always difficult playing lots one after the other but you swung along nicely. Clams don't matter, who cares? Personally, I tend to play much better when I've stopped caring, gives it that easy laid-back feel :-)
    Thanks so much for your words of encouragement! It was a big breakthrough for me to post something with mistakes. Takes all the pressure off moving forward. Best to you!

  8. #7

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    Yea... very nice. You worked with shape nicely, and 2nd to comments above. Your better than many pros I've worked with...

    But.... I can't say I remember much.

    Maybe... get out of the doo-ba doo-ba etc... thing for a while.

    If your goal was to spell changes... great job. Take the A train generally gets much more Blue, right ... I mean take it to the bridge... how blue is that... sorry, getting carried away.

    Some might not like this.... but use some memorable lick or some type of repeating pattern that you can use your expression BS to create a feel of hey I'm playing something.... like 1st "A" do your doo-ba doo-ba thing... then on the 2nd "A"... set up something that gets on the edge and opens the door to "B".... and use the last "A" relax and get ready to start over or end etc...

    Once you get better at controlling 1 chorus... work on same approach using 2 choruses then 3 etc... eventually you'll have standard organizational shapes of FORMS... to take solos. I know this doesn't seem to have that in the moment, speaking the truth magical thing going on.... but it will.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Yea... very nice. You worked with shape nicely, and 2nd to comments above. Your better than many pros I've worked with...

    But.... I can't say I remember much.

    Maybe... get out of the doo-ba doo-ba etc... thing for a while.

    If your goal was to spell changes... great job. Take the A train generally gets much more Blue, right ... I mean take it to the bridge... how blue is that... sorry, getting carried away.

    Some might not like this.... but use some memorable lick or some type of repeating pattern that you can use your expression BS to create a feel of hey I'm playing something.... like 1st "A" do your doo-ba doo-ba thing... then on the 2nd "A"... set up something that gets on the edge and opens the door to "B".... and use the last "A" relax and get ready to start over or end etc...

    Once you get better at controlling 1 chorus... work on same approach using 2 choruses then 3 etc... eventually you'll have standard organizational shapes of FORMS... to take solos. I know this doesn't seem to have that in the moment, speaking the truth magical thing going on.... but it will.
    This is exactly what I need to hear. I alluded to the "doo-ba doo-ba thing" in my OP. Kinda "bouncy" IIRC. In retrospect, I could've introduced a little more tension going into the B section as you correctly point out. Also, on reflection I could've been a little more motivic establishing and developing rhythmic/melodic themes. Again, I very much appreciate your candid appraisal. All good stuff! p.s. What did you mean "Take the A train generally gets much more Blue"?

  10. #9

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    Really melodic, relaxed, good timing. Nothing wrong with this take. Steady flow of eight notes.

    Some players favor the WholeTone scale over lydian dominant. And the turnarounds are great for substitution, like the ladybird sequence or moving up in Minor thirds or down in Major thirds, or sideslipping. I do this in practicing, but am not good enough to play this stuff live. Note to self: practice more...

    Experimenting with triplets and triplet-feel embellishments is nice, too.

    Overall, solid playing, gig-worthy stuff.

  11. #10

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    I like your sound first. I also think you have the spirit of the tune. I agree with other comments that when you get a bit pressed for the changes and you're on the edge, it starts getting fun. Well done.

    One thing I'll say is that you have good meter which will put you over the top every time. TTT: Time, Tone, & Taste.

    I wouldn't worry about being too bouncy. Some of that could be red light fever. There's nothing wrong wihtyour playing. If you want to get more of an edge with a more compositional feel to your solos, relax a bit. Don't feel that you need to fill it up the whole way. Let your phrases, which are perfectly good, sit with the listener in pauses. Also think about entering the same spot in the changes next time thye come around wiht a repeated phrase but in a different octave...it's a cheap trick but it works. I'm no great player, but this link to some things I did with my last trio in one night might serve for some ideas.
    https://www.reverbnation.com/bandinapocket/songs
    Beautiful Love and Stompin at the Savoy have some challenges that \i don't always negotiate smoothly, but you can see that \i give it a rest occasionally which lets my mind catch up. I don't think I play any more confidently than you (or with better time), but I am totally willing to fall on my face.
    Keep it up. I'm a fan.

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Djang
    Really melodic, relaxed, good timing. Nothing wrong with this take. Steady flow of eight notes.

    Some players favor the WholeTone scale over lydian dominant. And the turnarounds are great for substitution, like the ladybird sequence or moving up in Minor thirds or down in Major thirds, or sideslipping. I do this in practicing, but am not good enough to play this stuff live. Note to self: practice more...

    Experimenting with triplets and triplet-feel embellishments is nice, too.

    Overall, solid playing, gig-worthy stuff.
    Much appreciation for your encouragement and recommendations. I actually dropped in a whole tone run a couple of times, but I'm thinking lydian dominant instead of whole tone. That said, the consensus is, apparently, that at the time the tune was written lydian dominant wasn't a "thing" yet and that Duke and Strayhorn's intention was whole tone. Minor third up I incorporate from time to time because I hear it as IVmin. I wasn't aware of down a major third so will experiment with that. I have a David Baker book with some Dameron turnarounds so will take another look at them. Funny you mentioned triplets. I had posted a track some time ago where I kind of overdid it on triplets. So it made me a little phobic about them even though it's a nice embellishment. Time to work 'em back in. In closing, many thanks for taking the time to listen so closely.

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by benrosow
    I like your sound first. I also think you have the spirit of the tune. I agree with other comments that when you get a bit pressed for the changes and you're on the edge, it starts getting fun. Well done.

    One thing I'll say is that you have good meter which will put you over the top every time. TTT: Time, Tone, & Taste.

    I wouldn't worry about being too bouncy. Some of that could be red light fever. There's nothing wrong wihtyour playing. If you want to get more of an edge with a more compositional feel to your solos, relax a bit. Don't feel that you need to fill it up the whole way. Let your phrases, which are perfectly good, sit with the listener in pauses. Also think about entering the same spot in the changes next time thye come around wiht a repeated phrase but in a different octave...it's a cheap trick but it works. I'm no great player, but this link to some things I did with my last trio in one night might serve for some ideas.
    Band-In-A-Pocket Songs | ReverbNation
    Beautiful Love and Stompin at the Savoy have some challenges that \i don't always negotiate smoothly, but you can see that \i give it a rest occasionally which lets my mind catch up. I don't think I play any more confidently than you (or with better time), but I am totally willing to fall on my face.
    Keep it up. I'm a fan.
    You're very generous with your praise and I value that very much. I think tone gets us down the field as well as chops, and as someone who's never been particularly "fast" I've focused on developing a pleasing and authentic tone and (hopefully) a relaxed feel. Ha ha, never heard of "red light fever" but very concise and appropriate! I also agree with your observation that I may be trying to "fill it up the whole way." In fairness to me, I think my playing would be a little more organic in a live situation. More interplay and spontaneity. BTW I listened to a couple of your clips on Reverb Nation. You can play bro!

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2
    You're very generous with your praise and I value that very much. I think tone gets us down the field as well as chops, and as someone who's never been particularly "fast" I've focused on developing a pleasing and authentic tone and (hopefully) a relaxed feel. Ha ha, never heard of "red light fever" but very concise and appropriate! I also agree with your observation that I may be trying to "fill it up the whole way." In fairness to me, I think my playing would be a little more organic in a live situation. More interplay and spontaneity. BTW I listened to a couple of your clips on Reverb Nation. You can play bro!
    I find that when I start to do things like just fill it up with notes or get pedantic sounding, it's usually because I have got my mind buried in "what should I do?" or "where the hell am I?" rather than, "don't worry, you know how this tune goes. You won't get lost."

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by benrosow
    I find that when I start to do things like just fill it up with notes or get pedantic sounding, it's usually because I have got my mind buried in "what should I do?" or "where the hell am I?" rather than, "don't worry, you know how this tune goes. You won't get lost."
    Well, it's a very easy tune structurally. The challenge is how to handle the D7(#11) and make it musical. In this respect, the tune is kind of an etude for me. So when and how or if to incorporate the G#/Ab (if we're calling it D7b5) is one of the study points. Also developing lines that transition smoothly from D7 to Dmin.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2
    Hope you like clams 'cause there's plenty of 'em here. Knocked this off yesterday first and only pass. Could've been cleaner of course. My concern is that my feel is a little "bouncy." Seems like it's kinda baked-in at this point. Corpse had some good insights on this some time ago. A little repetitious after a while but after five minutes what can you expect? Any comments good, bad or otherwise are greatly appreciated.

    The "bounciness" didn't bother me a bit. I think it's a pretty good swing feel.

    Loved the guitar tone.

    Solo is melodic, which I like a lot.

    So overall, very nice.

    Now,to try to offer something helpful, I'll nitpick a bit. Caveat: I've been wrong before.

    Your playing sounds a tiny bit behind the beat. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but trying to get more on top of the beat might lead to some different rhythmic lines.

    When I bore myself to tears with the repetitiveness, rhythmically, in a solo, I sometimes shake things up with a quote from another tune, or by playing a line in the rhythm of another tune. Usually, I use a tune I can sing. To make this clear -- it's as if I'm reading the chart for another tune and changing the pitches without changing the duration of the notes.

    So, say you're playing Lady Is a Tramp. It starts with a bar of Cmaj7. You have some notes that are melodic. Now, play them with the rhythmic content of All of Me. Or How High The Moon or some other tune.

    Another way to do it is to scat sing and try to play that. My experience (others?) is that what I scat sing is not the same as what my fingers will do otherwise.

    Probably doesn't need to be said, but there are situations where it sounded like you couldn't quite execute the line you wanted and the time feel suffered. This is an interesting dilemma. Jazz is about taking chances, so, from one perspective, aiming so high that you occasionally crash and burn is part of the art form. On the other hand, time feel is essential, so crashing is not a privilege to be overused. Maybe I wrote that to remind myself of it, and not anybody else.

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    The "bounciness" didn't bother me a bit. I think it's a pretty good swing feel.

    Loved the guitar tone.

    Solo is melodic, which I like a lot.

    So overall, very nice.

    Now,to try to offer something helpful, I'll nitpick a bit. Caveat: I've been wrong before.

    Your playing sounds a tiny bit behind the beat. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but trying to get more on top of the beat might lead to some different rhythmic lines.

    When I bore myself to tears with the repetitiveness, rhythmically, in a solo, I sometimes shake things up with a quote from another tune, or by playing a line in the rhythm of another tune. Usually, I use a tune I can sing. To make this clear -- it's as if I'm reading the chart for another tune and changing the pitches without changing the duration of the notes.

    So, say you're playing Lady Is a Tramp. It starts with a bar of Cmaj7. You have some notes that are melodic. Now, play them with the rhythmic content of All of Me. Or How High The Moon or some other tune.

    Another way to do it is to scat sing and try to play that. My experience (others?) is that what I scat sing is not the same as what my fingers will do otherwise.

    Probably doesn't need to be said, but there are situations where it sounded like you couldn't quite execute the line you wanted and the time feel suffered. This is an interesting dilemma. Jazz is about taking chances, so, from one perspective, aiming so high that you occasionally crash and burn is part of the art form. On the other hand, time feel is essential, so crashing is not a privilege to be overused. Maybe I wrote that to remind myself of it, and not anybody else.
    Your compliments are very validating. I'll take "pretty good swing feel" any day of the week. Especially meaningful is your acknowledgment of my tone. I strive to sound "authentic" with good clarity and depth. As for playing "a tiny bit behind the beat" this is always intentional for me whether I achieve it or not. I'm a big fan of Dexter Gordon who is always (to my hearing) comfortably on the back part of the beat. Your suggestion to quote some heads when soloing is, again, right out of Dexter's playbook. He's the champ!

    This is the first time I've ever put up a track with obvious mistakes, so in that regard it's a big breakthrough for me. Up until now I've been kinda phobic about it. So it's very liberating to get past that. In this regard, while we admire Wynton Marsallis for his impeccable technique and execution we love Miles flubs and all. That said, Miles could get away with it, the rest of us maybe not so much!

  18. #17

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    And don't forget Joe Pass mentioned once that everything he recorded had a flub in it - he used to call it his trademark :-)

    At 6.38. He mainly used wholetone licks, and flubs. A Train is part of a medley so it drifts into it and drifts out of it again...


  19. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    And don't forget Joe Pass mentioned once that everything he recorded had a flub in it - he used to call it his trademark :-) At 6.38. He mainly used wholetone licks, and flubs. A Train is part of a medley so it drifts into it and drifts out of it again...
    I appreciate your encouragement. I doubt my best playing will ever measure up to Joe's flubs.