-
Having done a search I didn't find anything directly concerned with this issue, so thought I'd ask the question. I'm happy enough with my approach and practice habits for learning single line improv skills, but how to get the Wes octave thing into my playing? Should you just try to play phrases in octaves, until it starts to feel natural, or is a more structured approach possible/advisable? If so, what? (what I'm meaning here is that for single line stuff, you can think in terms of structured fingerboard areas/positions, but do people use something similar for octaves?). Also, are there any exercises that are useful for building octave technique?
Thanks for reading everyone! Really, any advice at all appreciated on this whole subject, cheers!
-
02-01-2010 02:55 PM
-
I like the sound of octaves, and I've used octaves in my own soloing with success, but not just in jazzstyle. But of course, octaves immediately give a clear "Wes-impression".
I don't think I've ever seen structured ways of practicing octaves, but in my opinion, the mere playing of them gives a good fretboard overview; it teaches/illustrates intervals clearly. And that's structuring in itself.
-
I'm interested in this as well. One thing I'm unsure about do you really have to use the fat of the thumb, or can you get away with using a pick? When I have my nails grown out (so I can play classical as well), they get in the way when I try to play with the thumb.
-
How do folks play octaves? I do all these:
1. Strumming with thumb, with one deadened string between the notes, for example: xxx5D8, where the B string is deadened.
2. Same as 1, but with a pick instead of my thumb.
3. Playing the bottom note with the pick and the top note with my middle finger. Now it's easy for the notes to be farther apart since I am not deadening strings.
4. Same as 3, but finger-style, without a pick; for example, playing the notes with thumb and index finger, or thumb and middle finger.
-
I guess they do kind of sound instantly Wes, although I only used the term "Wes style octaves" as the quickest way of describing what I meant! Some good thoughts there though, thank you!
Originally Posted by olekeme
I can relate to your quandry in regard to nails - I too play classical (I also use my index finger nail somewhat like a pick with up/down strokes for jazz playing, as well as fingerstyle jazz playing). For me, I've come to the conclusion that using the flesh of the thumb to play octaves (or anything else) is generally too quiet to match well with my playing using my nail(s). OK for specifically soft sounding chords maybe, but doesn't work in the context of taking a solo. Wes played with his thumb all the time, so I guess it wasn't a problem for him (well, obviously not LOL! Originally Posted by FatJeff
), plus he developed a hard callous on the corner of his thumb which gave a stronger tone I believe. I've seen other good jazz guitarists playing octaves well with a pick, so it is possible to go this route. Cheers for your reply!
I guess I've gone with number 2 in your list Big Daddy - this gives the classic Wes type sound (or at least as near as I ever get to it!). Number 1 doesn't really work well for me for the reasons I give above. As to number 3, yes I have thought of and tried this - I can do it fingerstyle using index and ring finger to pick, but somehow the sound is not quite what I want. I wonder if Wes ever played octaves with the notes further apart as you describe? Possible I guess - an interesting reply though, and cheers! Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
-
(Note that I craftily edited my post because I forgot #4!)
One thing I should add is that I'm happy anytime the octaves I play come out okay. I'm not trying to nail Wes's distinctive tone or style.
-
I play octaves some in rock/pop stuff, but never do in jazz. It is so cliche, kinda like fretboard tapping ala EVH. However, lots of people do it, and it sounds great, but I immediately think Wes.
I use pick only when doing it, and got it up and running by just playing melodies of tunes I already knew, arps, and scales using them to get the technique down. I don't use'em much, so they are not seamless in my playing. Good luck with it.
-
That is a good approach to have BD, I guess I'm not trying to be a Wes copyist either, I just quite like the idea of putting a bit of that flavour into my playing. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
Thanks for the encouragement Derek, I will keep working on it! I guess it's true it could well be a bit of a cliche, although I like to think of it more as a whole stylistic area that has become a standard part of the jazz guitar style. Not for everyone I guess. I'm also a big fan of Emily Remler, who used octaves often and very well, although of course she was strongly influenced by Wes among others. I have got over my EVH fret tapping phase though LOL! Originally Posted by derek
-
Just apply your preferred methods of studying to octaves.
Whatever you play in single notes try in octaves. Start very simple.
You can apply any single note fingering for a scale, arpeggio, melody ect.
and play an octave above or below it (whatever is range appropriate).
When I say single note fingering I am talking only about the note location and not the finger used.
Use the single note version as a sonic model and then play it in octaves.
Sometimes I play more up and down on 1 pair of strings or 2 pair to focus the tone color to suit the moment.
(ex. playing a bass line only on ED/AG for a thicker sound)
You could play octaves with 2 skipped strings with your fingers or pick and finger.
(EG/AB/DE) It opens up a bit more tonal space between the notes.
Also double octaves (EGE/EDE)
-
It is a cool technique, no matter who uses it. It is another improvisational tool for the tool box. BTW, I still like to tap a bent note at the 12th fret every now and then. Originally Posted by Meggy
That is a good approach to have BD, I guess I'm not trying to be a Wes copyist either, I just quite like the idea of putting a bit of that flavour into my playing.
Thanks for the encouragement Derek, I will keep working on it! I guess it's true it could well be a bit of a cliche, although I like to think of it more as a whole stylistic area that has become a standard part of the jazz guitar style. Not for everyone I guess. I'm also a big fan of Emily Remler, who used octaves often and very well, although of course she was strongly influenced by Wes among others. I have got over my EVH fret tapping phase though LOL!
-
A lot of solid practice and technique suggestions there! Thank you very much for posting this bako, very helpful indeed. Originally Posted by bako
That's pretty much what I think derek, another tool in my "bag of tricks" as it were. Like a lot of things, it could be overdone though? As to the tapping, maybe I should dust off my Van Halen albums for some inspiration! (Yes, I still have them... Originally Posted by derek
It is a cool technique, no matter who uses it. It is another improvisational tool for the tool box. BTW, I still like to tap a bent note at the 12th fret every now and then. ).
-
Originally Posted by derek
BTW, I still like to tap a bent note at the 12th fret every now and then.
SHOCK! AND AWE! Are you allowed to do that??
-
Easy there big guy, not in jazz, just rock/pop stuff. If I did it with jazz, I am quite certain I would be taken into immediate custody by the Jazz Police. Originally Posted by FatJeff
SHOCK! AND AWE! Are you allowed to do that??
-
I was thinking you might have been given special permission or something derek! Guess not though! LOL Originally Posted by derek
Easy there big guy, not in jazz, just rock/pop stuff. If I did it with jazz, I am quite certain I would be taken into immediate custody by the Jazz Police.
-
I know all these comments about 'rules' are light-hearted jokes, but I'd still like to make the point that if everyone paid attention 'rules' or what was socially acceptable in your playing, there would have been no EVH or Wes!
-
A very good and true point - the world needs a few bold innovators every so often, to challenge the accepted limits. Otherwise I would not be trying to play Wes style octaves in the first place! Originally Posted by abracadabra
I know all these comments about 'rules' are light-hearted jokes, but I'd still like to make the point that if everyone paid attention 'rules' or what was socially acceptable in your playing, there would have been no EVH or Wes! Speaking of which, any more octave practice advice octave fans?
-
Noooooooooooooooo! I don't want to live in a world where air guitarists can't play over EVH's solo on Eruption! Originally Posted by abracadabra
I know all these comments about 'rules' are light-hearted jokes, but I'd still like to make the point that if everyone paid attention 'rules' or what was socially acceptable in your playing, there would have been no EVH or Wes!
-
For what it's worth, I've been practicing them nice and slow, just plodding along in a slow groove on ballads or blues, or just 1/4 notes on something more upbeat. What's funny is, because when I switch from single-note to octaves I slow down and chill out a bit more, I find my improv jumps up a notch! I suppose I'm not playing 'pet licks', so it sounds fresher and more interesting to me. Originally Posted by Meggy
any more octave practice advice octave fans?
-
It's funny, octaves are just an interval, a prime interval at that. They are used all over in music and yet the guitar octave impact of Wes was so great that he just short of owns the interval on our instrument.
That said there are many octave things done on guitar and other instruments.
George Benson inserted 4ths and 5ths in between sometimes and a tremolo like technique.
I remember learning a Steve Vai tune with a student that was reminiscent of the Hendrix double stop sound in songs like Angel and Little Wing. Anyway in his solo he did a lot of variations of broken octaves integrated with various slurs on one or both of the notes.
Funk bassists have gotten alot of mileage out of rhythmic patterns with broken octaves.
Boogie woogie piano left hand broken octave lines created a driving accompaniment.
Stanley Jordan uses his piano like tapping techniques and his symetrical tuning to play 2 handed lines in octaves.
In theory with octaves in each hand we could tap 4 octave lines within a limited range.
Everything played on the lower 4 courses of a 12 string guitar are octaves.
For power an orchestra plays tutti, unisons and multiple octaves to accentuate a line.
Harpists play octaves to increase the presence of a melody or a bass line.
We can insert other intervals in between and outside the octave.
Ex:
3rds- CEC//CCE//CEE
6ths- CAC//CCA//CAA
double 3rds- CECE (sound great but a bit awkward)
Sometimes big band 4 trumpets/4 trombones will play 4 part chords in octaves
(need 2 guitars for that one)
5 trumpets allowed for a 4 part chord plus an octave.
Pianist Red Garland had this wonderful chord melody thing he did with chords encased between the melody in octaves.
I have a study project lined up that I'm not yet ready to take on, with 4 note structures 2 notes encased in between an octave.
The project would be something like this. Pretending that this voicing family was the only game in town and playing tunes
using these structures. In real playing they would of course just be another option integrated after I gained enough dexterity.
Just brainstorming octave possibilities out loud on digital paper. Didn't intend to stray this far from Meggy's original question.
-
'Sisters'? I used to love playing that tune. Forgotten it all now though. Originally Posted by bako
I've been using octaves a lot when playing heads that are normally played by horns. Like on 'Doxy'. It's quite slow, so its not hard, but I feel playing single notes for the head sounds too thin, so I use octaves. I suppose Wes did this for similar reasons. It seems a really natural thing to do though. Does anyone else do this?
Also, I use my pick and my 4th finger (ring finger) to play octaves. Sounds fine to me.
-
I do have an advice on the technique of using octaves. - Many people use their index and the pinky when playing octaves.
This is fine on the first two set of strings but for the bottom two it's inefficient because you'll have to move your pinky back a fret when you change between strings.
The best thing to do is use your pinky for the top two sets but use the ring finger for the bottom two. This allows for more efficient and smoother string changes.
-
BTW, that's how Wes played..
-
Pick + middle finger, + ring finger, + pinky --- I think we covered it!
-
LOL, pinky?.. I just tried it and feels really weird
-
It depends how you start out and how long you've been doing it.
I started playing octaves back in the early sixties having just HEARD Wes doing it and before his first guitar book came out.
I had been playing octaves for a couple of years using index and fourth finger for EVERYTHING before I saw him at Ronnie Scott's club and realised that he was using different fingerings for different string sets. It was, by that time, quite natural for me so I've never changed it.
If you do it the way Wes did it then it will be quite natural for you too in about forty years (or less). He was the greatest ever, but what worked for him is not necessarily going to work for you.
Reply With Quote
No more 10" Neo Speakers?
Today, 10:31 AM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos