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  1. #1

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    Hi, all

    These days I'm reading the book "Hearin' the Changes" (by Coker, Knapp, Vincent). Great stuff.

    It mentions this allegedly common construct which they call "bebop turnaround": Eb7, Ab, Db7, C, after a C or Em chord (key of C).

    How would / do you play the Eb7 and Db7? Vanilla / mixolydian 7, b9, alt...? (Different options compiled in relevant thread: LINK)

    My question is related to these being quite non-diatonic.

    Any other comments on this turnaround more than welcome too.

    Cheers,

    Alex
    Last edited by alez; 06-22-2020 at 10:00 AM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Musicians also call this a Tadd Dameron turnaround; after the tune ‘Lady Bird’ by Dameron which it appears in.

    Its what a call a 5 turnaround - that is, a turnaround that harmonises the fifth of the key, G in this case. You also get 3 and 1 turnarounds.

    Cmaj7 Eb7 | Abmaj7 Db7#11

    You can also replace all the chords with a maj7 and it will do the same job

    Theres a few ways to play it but Barry Harris worked on it by expressing 1-2-3-5 on each chord and then mixing up the order of the cells.

    This is a good way to practice any chromatic chord progression. You end up clearly outlining the harmony, as you only have four notes per chord, and only two beats (four eighth notes) it’s good to be able to do this. People practice this on Giant Steps for instance. Playing a whole scale can be unhelpful because some notes are stronger than others.

    In another sense if we ignore the Eb7 this progression is related to Cmaj7 | Dm7b5 G7alt - or Cmaj7 | Fm7 G7alt

    The Eb7 becomes a passing chord. Weak side chords (chords on the back half of the measure) can be ignored or replaced with other passing chords.
    Last edited by christianm77; 06-22-2020 at 04:25 AM.

  4. #3

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    I'd go to the pros.

    Here's Dexter doing it many times in D:



    And Chet doing it many times in C but using all M7s:



    And if you want a guitar version, here's Pete. This one's odd because he's using different combinations:


  5. #4

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    I'd to go to the pros and DO IT BY EAR, you learn slower but you learn better and deeper

    There's often mistakes as well in these online transcriptions...

  6. #5

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    For instance the chord symbols are clashing with the written notes in the Chet transcription at 15-16, so the transcription isn't consistent with itself. The horn harmonies give, in combo with the rhythm section:

    Cmaj9 Eb7 Abmaj13 Db7#11

    Can't be arsed to check through all their work: more productive to do your own. One will still make mistakes, but at least they're your mistakes... It's better learning in my view, to badly transcribe one chorus yourself (unless your aim is to practice sight reading of course)

    BTW I'm not intending to be down on the people who made those transcriptions - good for them - just those who don't do their own work.

  7. #6

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    You guys are awesome. I do appreciate your help.


    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    You can also replace all the chords with a maj7 and it will do the same job

    What about the other flavours of major? Triad, 6. I.e. do you specifically need the major 7th or just the chord function?

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by alez
    You guys are awesome. I do appreciate your help.





    What about the other flavours of major? Triad, 6. I.e. do you specifically need the major 7th or just the chord function?
    I never actually tried that. Why not?

    The reason why I write out the extensions the way I did above is bacuase the 5 is in the melody. That's one of the useful things about the progression for reharmonising tunes... If you want to have the same effect with different chord qualities you'd need to pay attention to that.

    An obvious one might be
    Cm6 Eb7 Am(maj7) D7#11 Cm

    For instance

    But really it's only limited by your imagination. I focus on the top voice because it tends to knit everything together.

  9. #8

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    Oh another thing is I think this turnaround evolved from an earlier thing that I call the Gershwin turnaround which is

    Cmaj7 Eb7 | Abmaj7 G7 |

    If you listen to 'Bess You is My Woman Now' (1935), you'll hear it':



    At 0:23

    DAMN I love Gershwin

    It's quite Hollywood, right?

    You also hear a variation in Django's Oriental shuffle at 0:23....



    | F Db | Gb7 C7 |

    Also quartal harmony in the 30s, and unbelievable guitar playing. It might be the musical equivalent of yellowface, but DAMN it's amazing.

  10. #9

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    Possible transcription errors aside (there aren't that many and not round the bit we're interested in) I think the idea isn't merely to copy something but to see what and how they're doing it. It looks to me like they're really not having much a problem with it at all. The pace is quite fast and most of them just pop in a few notes.

    I always think it's a stumbling block to isolate such a small section of a tune and worry over it too much. Incidentally, there's also a version by Miles Davis which I didn't post because, basically, he just skips that bit. Just a note or two and that's it.

    But I think the principle's what's important. Grasp that and you can use it anyhow you like.

    Of course the melody is very clever, just a repeated G note - over the chords in order that's a 5th, a 3rd, a 9th, and a flat 5. Brilliant, so I don't think a solo should linger too long on it. Certainly not at the expense of the whole tune, anyway.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by alez
    What about the other flavours of major? Triad, 6. I.e. do you specifically need the major 7th or just the chord function?
    Whatever works for you. It's jazz, you can change or alter what you like. Try them out, use what you think sounds best for you. There's no final authority, no set rule - hence the variations in all those versions.

    You could just play C Eb7 D7 Db7 if you like, or C A7 Ab7 G7, whatever. It's all just a sub for C/Am - Dm/G7. Or just C - G7 technically.

    Listen to this. I'm just outlining CM7 - G7 over most of the variations here. Any clashes are 'allowable' tensions, they're the wrong notes in the right places, as they say.

    So does it really matter? Keep it simple.

    Last edited by ragman1; 06-22-2020 at 11:09 AM.

  12. #11

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    Thanks for all this.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Whatever works for you. It's jazz, you can change or alter what you like. Try them out, use what you think sounds best for you. There's no final authority, no set rule - hence the variations in all those versions.
    My question of whether the maj7 chord use is a chord function thing or it has to do with the presence of the major 7th extension in particular comes from my own experience with the tritone sub dominant bII7... the "to tonic root" voice leading I tend to use is the half step above tonic one (root movement), not the half step below one (aka "leading", minor 7th to root)... I don't really make use of that minor 7th in my phrasing, for some reason I don't find it as interesting as that of a V7 (for which I do use both its 7th and its 3rd). I don't really know why.

  13. #12

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    Isn't this just I VI II V with tritone subs for VI II V?

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Isn't this just I VI II V with tritone subs for VI II V?
    I think so. Seeing so many non-diatonic tones involved caught my attention and wanted to learn about it. I was wondering whether the intention would be to make those more diatonic by altering them or the opposite. I'm not being able to fit these well in the way I currently "see things" (which is way too basic I guess).
    Last edited by alez; 06-23-2020 at 12:44 PM.

  15. #14

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    Playing by ear my approach is more casual; in my jazz trio my first priority is to always be able to play something, even if I don't need to! I want things that sound good, are easy to play fast if necessary, that maintain a sense of motion, and that suggest ideas for soloing.

    Using bebop turnaround as example... here is my sort of kind of approach.

    First approximation I might focus on being fairly schematic and simple, fewest forms so it can be played easy and quite fast if necessary. Below I use only two alternating fingering forms that are very similar so they can be played very fast.

    x 12 12 12 13 x - C69
    x 10 11 10 13 x - Eb(13)
    x 10 10 10 11 x - AbM13
    x 8 9 8 11 x - Db(13)
    x 7 7 7 8 x - C6add9

    However, the Eb(13) and AbM13 don't quite satisfy the sense of motion (here descending) because they sound very similar and tend to sound like they are pausing across their shared bottom Gs, which unfortunately is also the melody note. The faster the tempo, the less these are issues and the more important the ease of playing, so it's judgement and trade-off.

    Second approximation I might renew the motion by changing the AbM13 to Ab(13) so its bottom changes from G to Gb. Then to avoid having three 13th chords in series, the Db(13) is changed to Db(9b5) for a little softer resolve into the C chord. This makes an overall better sounding series for slower tempos where it shows, and adds more soloing ideas.

    x 12 12 12 13 x - C69
    x 10 11 10 13 x - Eb(13)
    x 9 10 10 9 x - Ab(13)
    x 8 9 8 8 x - Db(9b5)
    x 7 7 7 8 x - C6add9

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by alez
    Thanks for all this.



    My question of whether the maj7 chord use is a chord function thing or it has to do with the presence of the major 7th extension in particular comes from my own experience with the tritone sub dominant bII7... the "to tonic root" voice leading I tend to use is the half step above tonic one (root movement), not the half step below one (aka "leading", minor 7th to root)... I don't really make use of that minor 7th in my phrasing, for some reason I don't find it as interesting as that of a V7 (for which I do use both its 7th and its 3rd). I don't really know why.
    Neither do I. You're obsessed

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Neither do I. You're obsessed
    Well... agreed.

  18. #17

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    I think it's important for people to be able to outline chord progressions in their lines.

    Then you can swap progressions out for others that have the same function and people will go 'ooh'

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Isn't this just I VI II V with tritone subs for VI II V?
    I was under the impression that simple, straightforward, one sentence answers weren't allowed here.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    and people will go 'ooh'
    hah, on what planet?

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I think it's important for people to be able to outline chord progressions in their lines.

    Then you can swap progressions out for others that have the same function and people will go 'ooh'
    Me too. The way I think of it, and what I like to hear and play, and how I interpret what you wrote, is outlining multiple chords with lines and phrases... spanning across the changes, outlining swapped changes, and "outlining" additional inserted changes.

    To my thinking, this is CST's analogous "breaking out of the pentatonic box" in CST world - manipulations that shift melody and harmony from low resolution to fine. Maybe an example... (of inserted additional)

    Consider Dm7 -> Bb(13) and playing through the Bb(13)

    - Ab D G Bb D F (straight)
    - Ab Eb D G Bb D F (the addition of just the Eb in that line briefly "outlines" Bb(13sus4) within that Bb(13) context)

    This is like an adjustment to the visual resolution of a CST "image" of Bb(13). The first straight one is low resolution, but the second with the inserted additional note requires a finer resolution to accommodate the added note - to include the inserted quick change to Bb(13sus4). This is a little different from embellishments, ornaments, enclosures, and slips; there is overlap, but that single Eb is conjuring up another whole chord harmony out of thin air by being played within that context.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    hah, on what planet?
    They did it once in 2014 in Munich.

    I played Bo7 on C7 and they went ooh.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    They did it once in 2014 in Munich.

    I played Bo7 on C7 and they went ooh.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    I played Bo7 on C7 and they went ooh.
    But they let you live. Count your blessings

  25. #24

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    So turnarounds are just chord patterns that imply a target... right. Personally I've always related the ...
    I ...bIII ....bVI ... bII turnaround just a relative or Chord Pattern from Minor. Meaning Cmaj becomes C- through standard Borrowing .... Relative and Parallel BS theory... anyway, How you want to play your lines should reflect what Function you choose to make the chords...

    Is bIII a secondary V of bVI and is bII just a tritone sub of V7... or are they all series or extended Dominants...

    The point should be.... how you want to interpret the sequence of Chords. If your playing Bop style you would want to try and keep a blues reference also.....

    So you can always just spell chords and expand each chord by adding it's related II- or any other chord pattern that can imply the Dominant chord. And then use Blue notes from Key to alter chords.

    It's not so much that you need to get it all out one time... you make choices that help you organize how your improvising for a few time through.... so that your 3rd chorus can be different and still have musicial reference to the 1st time and also have a relationship with how your approaching the rest of the actual tune...

    If sounds interesting... I can add a lot more.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    But they let you live. Count your blessings
    I resolved it like a champ to F major, so they all thought it was MEGA.

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Personally I've always related the ...
    I ...bIII ....bVI ... bII turnaround just a relative or Chord Pattern from Minor. Meaning Cmaj becomes C- through standard Borrowing .... Relative and Parallel BS theory...
    Wow, it didn't occur to me that those chords become much more diatonic if considered from the parallel minor key signature.

    There are always countless ways to look at whatever aspect.

  28. #27

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    Sorry I didn't answer your question... so If your really playing in "C" and the changes are C ? whatever Eb7 Ab7 and Db7. Usually that would just be all lydian b7 so Eb7#11 , Ab7#11 and Db7#11
    The reasoning is the turnaround is derive from a I VI II V And there are three harmonic organizational paths...

    Rather than just spell it out.... you sound like you understand Function etc... take a shot.
    hints, one is borrowing derived, an other is extended dominants and the last is function within chord patterns

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by alez
    Wow, it didn't occur to me that those chords become much more diatonic if considered from the parallel minor key signature.

    There are always countless ways to look at whatever aspect.
    Hey I said that like post #3

    SULKS

  30. #29

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    LOL... you win a free set of cheap strings, just cover the expenses...

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Hey I said that like post #3

    SULKS
    Bebop turnaround-mibtm-jpg

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Hey I said that like post #3

    SULKS
    Uh, sorry if you did.

    From the post I think you're mentioning, I got the bit where you explained the harmonized G and the bit where you give the Eb chord a passing chord consideration as "weak side chord". Awesome stuff.

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Sorry I didn't answer your question... so If your really playing in "C" and the changes are C ? whatever Eb7 Ab7 and Db7. Usually that would just be all lydian b7 so Eb7#11 , Ab7#11 and Db7#11
    OK, this is useful, thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    The reasoning is the turnaround is derive from a I VI II V And there are three harmonic organizational paths...

    Rather than just spell it out.... you sound like you understand Function etc... take a shot.
    hints, one is borrowing derived, an other is extended dominants and the last is function within chord patterns
    I have enough functional harmony knowledge to understand a few cadential constructs, but that's it.

    Unfortunately I'm hopelessly lost with regards to the 3 paths you mention, except perhaps the extended dominants one... which I guess is the way I was looking at this in the first place.

    My first question would be "there are three harmonic organizational paths" to what specifically, reharmonization, chord substitution, something else?

    Then, where would you go in order to learn about them?

  34. #33

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    Just using Functional Subs... very vanilla. Basic Maj/Min Functional Diatonic subs.
    There are more doors that require you to expand what is printed in mainstream music texts and on the internet. You actually need to get past trying to figure or find out info and get into the creating thing. Generally on this forum most just quote from printed info. The vanilla school of music... nothing wrong with it. Can't compare $ I made composing and arranging in the vanilla tradition as compared to what I liked. It's still all good...
    I'll check in later.

  35. #34

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    Thanks

    Exciting stuff.

    The thing is I really need to learn these vanilla sounds (aurally) before moving on. I need to learn how they sound, how I sound when I imply them with my phrasing, etc.

    I'm sure you remember what happens when you don't really have that... you are on stage soloing, you play a phrase, the result is unexpected (to you), and you find yourself desperately trying to recover from that and not get lost, etc.

  36. #35

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    LOL... not really, I was gigging when I was a kid.... had chops and lots of BS confidence. Never really got lost... just might be faking it, using ears etc...

  37. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    LOL... not really, I was gigging when I was a kid.... had chops and lots of BS confidence. Never really got lost... just might be faking it, using ears etc...
    theres a lot to be said for faking it

  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    theres a lot to be said for faking it
    ...and not enough said about using ears!

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    ...and not enough said about using ears!
    There's a good chapter in Hal Galper's Forward Motion where he talks about it. This was a skill that used to be taken for granted, but over the years, players are more and more reliant on charts etc. iReal has taken this to the nth degree.