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I really enjoy this tune, but frankly, looking at the changes drives me crazy. I play it in Eb and I can see some landmarks in the chart but there are other places where I'm having a hard time figuring out what the underlying harmonic movement is for the improviser.
Here is the chart I'm using for reference.
I would greatly appreciate hearing how you all think through these changes for improvising.
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05-30-2020 12:42 PM
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Why not play the chord tones...or God forbid, be an apostate and use CST? These approaches work great for harmonies like this.
PS: I use slightly different chords too. Glad you posted the sheet as I'd forgotten these changes.
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Treat bar 3 like Am7b5/D7 or Am7b5/Abm6.
Hope that helps.
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Did you not study the Raney solo for this one? Was that not helpful to get some ideas for this tune?
Originally Posted by lawson-stone
I'm not sure the CS theory is going to help you much here ... It might and then it might not ... How's your ability to use your ear and simply reproduce what you hear? Does that work for you?
DB
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Actually my ear is turning out to help the most, though I'm one of those people who has trouble "hearing lines in my head." I just have to transition from a Cm7 to a Gm7 in one measure... Raney in the first chorus actually builds a phrase off of an F9 arpeggio starting on the 3rd. Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
I guess my question is also one of how the harmony is actually working. I get the descending bass line, I just don't understand what's happening. I know that does not entirely make sense, maybe I'm over-thinking.
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What is confusing you harmonically? This is pretty standard - all clearly functional. The tune is in Eb and has some little voyages to VI.
The only "weird" thing I see is the F7/A - Bb7/Ab movement which is an elided resolution commonly used in classical music where the 3rd of the first chord moves down half a step to the 7th of the next - more of a contrapuntal thing that leads the bass down to the Gmin7 (the iii7)Last edited by powersurge; 06-01-2020 at 09:36 AM.
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Another way of seeing bars 2, 3 and 4 is the common progression: I | IV bVII7 | I in C minor.
It repeats in bars 5, 6 and 7 except resolves to the key, Ebmaj7 (or C minor without the root). It doesn't really modulate to relative minor though IMO.
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Yeah, that's why I wrote VI - it later modulates to C major which is just a chromatic mediant with respect to the home key, Eb.
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I always found this a tricky tune.
Alan, I’m shocked. Surely we view Am7b5 as an F7 not the other way around? ;-)
So obviously ignore those bass notes.
to be honest, I don’t think I’ve ever played these changes. I play something like
Eb G7 | Cm | Am7b5 D7 | Gm |
with the Eb-D-Db-C-Bb-A- etc bass
You could even ignore the Eb and play
Dm7b5 G7 | Cm | Am7b5 D7 | Gm |
because why play a tonic major when you can play a half diminished?
(you can put the C7 in if you want.)
i always found the challenge is to then play through the slow chord changes actually!
D7 into Ebmaj7 is lush. I prefer that to Bb7 Ebmaj7
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I think some people just have an Eb turnaround for the first couple of bars IIRC
When I don’t have to watch pinkfong with my toddler ill check out some recordings. I remember thinking the standard changes doesn’t really reflect a lot of recordings.
some classic reharms in pinkfong though. If you want to hear a slick reharm of a nursery rhyme that’s the place to go. So I’m happy my daughter is hearing some tritone subs and altered dominants you know.
Koreans love a bit of jazz harmony apparently.
Check this out this reharm of chopsticks. Some absolute cheek going on:
What bored Berklee alumnus came out with this I wonder?Last edited by christianm77; 06-01-2020 at 01:18 PM.
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I'd put a backing track with basic correct&checked changes on loop. Then I would play it only by ear for embarrassing amount of hours.
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As a starting point you could just reduce those changes to the simplest level, e.g. maybe something like this:
Eb (8 bars)
Ab (1 bar)
C (3 bars)
F7 (2 bars)
Bb7 (2 bars)
Eb (8 bars)
Ab (1 bar)
C (2 bars)
F#dim (1 bar)
Eb (4 bars)
You could solo over that and it would work. It wouldn't necessarily sound fantastic, but it would get you going. Anywhere where those changes don't give you a good-sounding note, just use something from the melody in that bar. In fact you could just play around with the melody for the whole 32 bars, that will also work. Lee Konitz would do that.
Then you can adjust it a bit e.g. make it sound better by incorporating some of the chord tones on the various ii-Vs in the original changes, rather than just forcing one chord across them as I have done above.
The point is to reduce all those changes to a few underlying movements, doing this is beneficial anyway because you start to recognise similar patterns in all the tunes.
Eventually you can add back in as much complexity as you want, i.e. to outline every single chord change if that's what you want to do.
But I wouldn't start at that point.
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I think Getz version is something like
Eb Ab7 | G7 Cm7 | F7 F#o7 | Gm7 C7
which is interesting. Then a simple ii V I into Eb.
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It's just weird to me that the first 4 measures are so "busy" with changes, and the rest of the song is totally laid back and easy, though not really "stock." It smells a little like "All the Things You Are" in places. It seems to set you up for a pedal-tone pivot to another key center, but then it doesn't, or it doesn't go where I expect.
I'll never be a jazz improviser, no matter how hard I try.
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The first two bars are like Bach's 3rd Orchestral Suites/Overture No. 3 in D major, BWV 1068 (Air on the G string). Originally Posted by lawson-stone
From there (in Eb), the target is Bb; Bach goes Ab A Bb, where H&B go the longer jazz route A Ab G C F Bb.
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Fisrt bars 'changes' describe the bass line mostly and this makes it look so dense... and this is where the major II comes from... they need this A natural in the bass, and following chord (7th in the bass - very nice and common classical move by the way!) too is there for the bass line Originally Posted by lawson-stone
Try to play just one chord for the bar Ebmaj7 / Cm7 / Fm7 (sic!) / Bb7
And then play the melody over it it will fit well...
I think of it as just heading to ii in the 5th bar(F-7)... in solo they can be all covered just with Eb
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Yeah I found that the hardest thing about it. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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This is particular thing I enjoy in this tune... and yes I agree it is hard if one wants to follow it.. Originally Posted by christianm77
Actually first bars sound like 4/4 and the rest like 2/2
Same thing happens in 'My One And Only Love' and though original changes seem different... the beginning sequence of 'Like Someone In Love' can be applied to it directly - with no corrections.
PS
I notice jazzers seldom try to overview the orginal form of the song though it can be fun... how the space is used.
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Here is the chart My One And Only Love.. exactly the same changes - just the space use is a bit different...
more motion at the beginning... but it is connected with melody... in Like Someone In Love melodic movement stays the same throughout and makes a contrast to bass harmony and in My One And Only Love it moves in the same pace with harmony
In both cases these changes can be reduced to I - vi- ii - V... essential harmony will stay (but some spice will go)
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Although if you look at the melody, the first 8 bars are just diatonic notes in Eb, nothing else. So you can also be guided by this. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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Great early Stan! The changes are more regular on the version of "Like Someone in Love" from People Time, recorded only months before his death from liver cancer. As to be expected, Getz occasionally struggles during these live sessions but his duo partner, pianist Kenny Barron is in absolutely top form here: Originally Posted by christianm77
Btw, I'm hearing those chords from The Steamer track as Ebmaj7 Abmaj7 | Gm7 C7 | F7 F#o7 | Gm7 C7 (actually in the key of Ab). They're a nice alternative to the descending bass changes.Last edited by PMB; 06-02-2020 at 08:38 AM.
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I appreciate your recognition that it's a tricky 4 measures. Everyone else seems to be on the "Oh it's really simple, just..." but they all seem reductionistic to me. I want to be able to play the changes, not play in spite of the changes. Sure sometimes we simplify, but I think it's important first to nail the changes and what the intention of the harmonic movement is, then work with that. Originally Posted by christianm77
Thanks for not brushing it off. I've played a lot of standards (admittedly,, not very well!) and this thing is different in a lot of ways, even when it seems conventional.
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It is true... I often think that if we reduce everything to ii-V-I or I-vi-ii- V ... we may come into sounding very generic on any tune becasue many stadards are really reductable.Everyone else seems to be on the "Oh it's really simple, just..." but they all seem reductionistic to me.
And I understand what you mean in that particular case too...
I like the colour of these inversion F/A and Bb7/Ab...
On the other hand it is true that in this case it is only for base move... I sincerely think one cannot do much out of it in soloing...
In somes sense there are 'no changes' here - if it were arranged written in standard notation we probably just though about passing bass notes
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So I just posted on my other LSIL thread a clip that I"ll post here. Your advice and encouragement have kept me going with this tune, and so I've posted here the melody with some embellishments and attempted a chorus of melody-inspired improvisation. This is painfully elementary for most of you, and mistakes are made... but at least I hope someone who is hesitant to post will think "I can do better than that" and maybe put their own stuff up.
Sorry for double-posting (other thread) but I got mixed up which thread was which.
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Hey Lawson, steady improvement. Have you listened back to this and decided which bit you like the best?
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Interesting question. I definitely know the "oops" parts. And there are spots where I fell back on arpeggio like things. But maybe I don't quite understand your question? Originally Posted by christianm77
Thanks for listening!
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Actually I was pretty happy with the first 24 bars or so of the solo. Found myself falling back more into licks and patterns toward the end, got a bit confused right at the end.. Originally Posted by christianm77
I'm blocking out about 20 minutes or so every day to just put the backing track on repeat and I play the melody and just try to go all over with it.
Probably ruining a perfectly good song!
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I think it's good to take things you like and develop them. Don't feel you have to start with a tabula rasa each time.
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The funny thing is, when I try to simply play a melodic type of thing, develop an idea or play with a couple of pretty intervals, I find I'm really aiming at the Bmin7 Eb7 AbMaj7 moment and I pretty much ignore whatever that is in measure 3. But somehow I think I do need to have some tension or something there. Still can't figure out what the function of that measure is, what sort of tension it's creating. And then the Gm7 C7 in m. 4 I know it's moving to the Fm7, but somehow it just feels to me like a "false tonic" moment. Tagging the III chord on the way to the ii. Originally Posted by christianm77
But I seem to be making better progress just blundering along mainly by ear. I hear this crazy song in my head ALL DAY LONG now. Probably need to learn the words because "DUH duh, duh-duh duh duh duh.." gets boring even in my head.
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I cant say for sure of course about your hearing but... Originally Posted by lawson-stone
Measure 3 is ii-V... try to play it without bass line...
And following Gm7 (iii) chord is sort of sub for I chord...
Try to play Eb/G on it's place
It could be fun to play over 3 and 4 measures just as if it is ii-v-i in Eb major... to play subs or altered licks and all that
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Hi Lawson
I had a look at measures 3 and 4 of your chart to see what kind of line I might play to bring out those changes. I agree with Jonah, ignore those bass notes and just look at the chord functions.
F7 and Bb7 are just a ii-V in Eb.
Gm is a red herring, it is just Eb by another name.
C7 is just the V going to Fm.
Anyway I scribbled down an idea for a line you could play on those 2 bars (sorry did not have proper music paper to hand!). It is just an F7 arp going up from A natural, then a run down in Bb7 from the D. Then a bit of chromatic approach into the C7 (the 4th note in line 2 is an Eb, followed by E natural, I screwed it up a bit). Then a C7b9 arp going up from E. Takes you to a C for the Fm chord in bar 5.
Really it’s just basic ‘arp up, scale down’ stuff which tries to join up some chord tones, but it’s the kind of thing I would play. Anyway hope this gives you some ideas.
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Doing that example I noticed that the 3rd of F7 (A natural) and the 3rd of C7 (E natural) are the only 2 notes that are not diatonic to Eb.
So you could imply the essence of those chords just by shaping your line to include an A in bar 3 and an E in the second half of bar 4 (which is sort of what I have done).
I read an interview with Pat Metheny where he said he builds a lot of his lines from the 3rds of the chords, you can see why he does this!
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We seen to have written the same thing in a bit different words... Originally Posted by grahambop
Hi Lawson
I had a look at measures 3 and 4 of your chart to see what kind of line I might play to bring out those changes. I agree with Jonah, ignore those bass notes and just look at the chord functions.
F7 and Bb7 are just a ii-V in Eb.
Gm is a red herring, it is just Eb by another name.
C7 is just the V going to Fm.
Anyway I scribbled down an idea for a line you could play on those 2 bars (sorry did not have proper music paper to hand!). It is just an F7 arp going up from A natural, then a run down in Bb7 from the D. Then a bit of chromatic approach into the C7 (the 4th note in line 2 is an Eb, followed by E natural, I screwed it up a bit). Then a C7b9 arp going up from E. Takes you to a C for the Fm chord in bar 5.
Really it’s just basic ‘arp up, scale down’ stuff which tries to join up some chord tones, but it’s the kind of thing I would play. Anyway hope this gives you some ideas.
By the way I think that A nat in bar 3 is really not that necessary... it shows up there because of the A nat in the bass... if the soloist plays Ab it will not clash but would make rather a sort of tension
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Graham I'm really impressed you sat down and did this for me. Thank you. I"ll play around with this today. Thanks! Originally Posted by grahambop
Hi Lawson
I had a look at measures 3 and 4 of your chart to see what kind of line I might play to bring out those changes. I agree with Jonah, ignore those bass notes and just look at the chord functions.
F7 and Bb7 are just a ii-V in Eb.
Gm is a red herring, it is just Eb by another name.
C7 is just the V going to Fm.
Anyway I scribbled down an idea for a line you could play on those 2 bars (sorry did not have proper music paper to hand!). It is just an F7 arp going up from A natural, then a run down in Bb7 from the D. Then a bit of chromatic approach into the C7 (the 4th note in line 2 is an Eb, followed by E natural, I screwed it up a bit). Then a C7b9 arp going up from E. Takes you to a C for the Fm chord in bar 5.
Really it’s just basic ‘arp up, scale down’ stuff which tries to join up some chord tones, but it’s the kind of thing I would play. Anyway hope this gives you some ideas.
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No problem, I think I should have a go at recording this tune myself!
Haven’t really tackled it seriously before, although I have played through that Jimmy Raney solo from his book.
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I'd love to hear it. The phrase you wrote I've modified slightly by going on the F7 not to F but to G, the 9th. I love the 9th. Originally Posted by grahambop
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Since it is writing time...
I like also involving ii -v going to G-7 ...
it can be A-7 D7 (as if it is heading to major chord)
or A7b5 D7 (a minor ii - v) then in the example you will have Eb (not E nat)
It makes it a bit clashy over Bb7/Ab but the tension of D7 to G-7 is so strong that it overpowers it and gives a nice colour over Bb7 (maj7, 9, b13)
Here is a simple verision of it just to demonstrate the idea (no key signatures, all natural except where indicated)
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Thanks for that one!
I feel like I'm getting a seminar here!
One thing I've noticed here is that F9 played up at the 8th fret is also an Am7b5 or Cm6, so I'm thinking lines off of those chords could work. Also Bb7/Ab bears close resemblance to AbDim7, so diminished lines could work on that measure too.
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Well we know that b9 chord is also dim from its 3rd or 5th... it is the same thing alsmot. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
And it can be used with almost anything anyhow - whtever sounds well to you
Yes, for F9 and Am7b5 (or Cm6) - it is quite common way to superimpose (Am7b5 is rootless F9) -- especially Barry Harris would have had something to say about it in particular)))
As for superimposition - though I see 7th chords too... I like thinking triads or intervals...
So for example with dominant chord you can think of
- m7b5 from 3rd
- dim triad from 3rd of dom (A dim triad)
- minor from 5th of dom (Cm triad)
Whats convinient about triad in this case - you can add any note to the triad and play around with these 4 notes... or mix them... it opens up some creativity
when you superimpose 7th chord you imply all 4 notes.. it can be limiting (not for everyone)Last edited by Jonah; 06-09-2020 at 02:44 PM.
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Here’s a nice version by Doug Raney from his debut album. Just guitar and bass (on this track).
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Doug Raney's playing is simply astounding. So creative, risky, and yet so clean and assertive. Wonderful tone, just excellent.
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Yes, and he was only 21 when he recorded that!
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reminds me to turn piano and drums OFF Band Box..
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Tal Farlow pretty much nails it too.
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I always loved Vince version... not that much line soloing here but it sounds cool
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lol yeah Doug’s version makes me think of trying it with bass only! Originally Posted by voxsss
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Originally Posted by grahambop
I always dreamt of finding a bassist to play duo with... my favourite setting for jazz guitar...
Doug's vesrion sounds so fresh and he does not strum a single chord while soloing..
I like that all linear playing/counterpoint - it has special character and expression
I remember Grant Green also did that in trio settings
Meanwhile .. Mike Stern
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Whoa. Just fell out of my chair. That's just mind-numbingly great. Originally Posted by Jonah
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When I’m confused about changes it helps to try to strip down to vanilla changes suggested by the melody. Here is Ralph Patt’s take on the vanilla changes in C.
Like Someone In Love (Ralph Patt Vanilla in C)
But there’s not a unique correct of vanilla changes for a melody. It’s just a process to go through to help make sense of the tune. Then compare the changes in your lead sheet to the vanilla chart you came up with. Where you see differences try to make sense of them as substitutions. You might prefer to to back to the vanilla chart and reharmonize the melody in your own way rather than follow the lead sheet. Of course, if playing in an ensemble you need to consider whether your chords are compatible with what bandmates are playing.
When I’m studying a busy lead sheet I tend to go through this process mentally, not necessarily writing my vanilla changes down. The process works well for me on the chart you provided.
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As other folks have mentioned, all the slash chords in the first section are really about a bass line that gets you from the tonic to the iim. I'm not sure if the below video is the original, but it's close. I hear that descending bass in the piano on the first A, but in the second A (which is just strings), I just hear some more tonal motion and no b5 half diminished chord.
It might help you to write some counterpoint against the bassline alone. A lot of other tunes use a variant of this motion (On Green Dolphin Street, My One And Only Love come to mind), but it's a bit unique to start the tune off here (or, it was in 1945!). Generally the more active the harmonic motion is, the simpler you can play and have it sound good. The bass has a beautiful descending line, so if you can find something simple that ascends without any clams, it's going to sound great!
I know it's reductionist, but I hear this tune as basically stuff in Eb going to the ii, then going from ii-V into the IV, then the VI major, going back to minor to get us back to Eb for the second half.
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