The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    P.S.

    5 x 5 5 4 6
    I like that. Am7b5b9.

    Play A Locrian, A alt, G harm min, or even an A H-W dim over it.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    i like beer. and many tones can be leading tones. the G wants to go to F#, the Bb wants to go to A. you cant escape science.
    all the tones can be leading tones except the leading tone because that’s lame.

  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    all the tones can be leading tones except the leading tone because that’s lame.
    we live on different planets

  5. #79

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    The third of the dominant is bourgeois

  6. #80

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    everyone feel Ok now. The world may be, well at least here in the states, dystopian, but we're cool here on JGF

  7. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    The third of the dominant is bourgeois
    :-)

  8. #82

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    Here’s a chord chart from a book that I often prefer to other fake books. Often this book is closer to the original than the Real Book that has a bunch of subs that were used in a later recording. This one works for me seems easier to improvise over than the Real Book. The only thing that puzzles me is the F13 F#dim7 in the B’ section. It works, but I’m not sure why.

  9. #83

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    Oh, that looks like fun!

    F13/F#o
    It works because the melody at that point is a natural A, the whole bar. The usual chord is just an F#o but I suspect they've added the F13 to give it some movement.

    The chord before it is CM7 and it's in some ways a better transition to go from CM7 to F7 to F#o than just leap straight to the dim.

    (I want to try that Am7/D7 variation...)

  10. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP
    Here’s a chord chart from a book that I often prefer to other fake books. Often this book is closer to the original than the Real Book that has a bunch of subs that were used in a later recording. This one works for me seems easier to improvise over than the Real Book. The only thing that puzzles me is the F13 F#dim7 in the B’ section. It works, but I’m not sure why.
    What book is this? That's a very interesting way to depict changes.

  11. #85

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    That’s a ‘grille’; a type of chord chart used in Gypsy Jazz

  12. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP
    Here’s a chord chart from a book that I often prefer to other fake books. Often this book is closer to the original than the Real Book that has a bunch of subs that were used in a later recording. This one works for me seems easier to improvise over than the Real Book. The only thing that puzzles me is the F13 F#dim7 in the B’ section. It works, but I’m not sure why.
    Its a minor ii - v - i

    F13 —> Am7b5
    F#o7 —> D7b9
    Gm7

  13. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    That’s a ‘grille’; a type of chord chart used in Gypsy Jazz
    get yours here:

    http://www.jazzbanjo.nl/files/Anthol...es-de-Jazz.pdf

  14. #88

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    In C here, I show the chords with all the extensions just to be clear.
    the second chord sounds so lush and also the F7#11.
    it alters the I chord even though the melody stays in the realm of C. These intricate harmonic devices where all the diatonic chords get a different dominant quality (F7#11 instead of Flydian, Ealtered instead of Ephrygian, D7 instead of D minor...) great tune
    Last edited by Djang; 06-28-2020 at 12:49 PM.

  15. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    And very nice it is too. I'm not sure about the B9 after the Fm7 in bar 5. It would have been better as B7b5 but it's liveable with :-)
    That B9 is just a tritone sub for F7, the V of the next chord Bb7. If I play it, I prefer B7. The 3rd of B is the melody note which is part of the reason it works. I think of the 9 as a reminder not to add b9 to it.

    I’m probably swimming beyond my depth here, but I think the B9 is acting as F7alt. The 9 of B is the #5 of F, so it works. The b9 wouldn’t.

    You mentioned preferring B7b5. Both the 5 and b5 of B are in F7alt, so either works as a tritone sub.

    The F# melodic minor scale works great over that B9. But that’s just another name for the Falt scale, so it makes sense it would!
    Melodic Minor – Altered Scale | Jens Larsen
    Last edited by KirkP; 06-29-2020 at 08:57 PM.

  16. #90

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    My favorite version:


  17. #91

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    Mike Moreno is currently running a course on Zoom called 'Standards from Film'.

    This week's tune just happens to be 'Like Someone in Love'.

    Mike runs each class three times per week: Tuesday at 1pm EST, Wednesday at 9pm EST and Friday at 11am EST. $28.

    I took his class on 'Stella by Starlight' a fortnight ago and thought it was great. Mike plays you scenes from the film so you can hear the original composer's harmony, talks about the film so you can get the original vibe of the song before going through several recorded versions to show how different musicians have interpreted the harmony and how the changes played today differ from the original version. There are PDFs all of the recordings to follow with.

    Booking: Standards From Film Series - ONLINE! - A Summer Course By Mike Moreno

  18. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I think of this book as cocktail piano charts. I don’t mean that as a criticism. I just mean they are usually basic old school chords that always get the job done. When I’m studying a tune I’ll usually compare several fake books to see what I like best. “Anthologie des Grilles” often ends up the winner, since I have old school ears. And I can make subs on the fly if I want to.
    Last edited by KirkP; 06-29-2020 at 10:51 PM.

  19. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP
    That B9 is just a tritone sub for F7, the V of the next chord Bb7. If I play it, I prefer B7. The 3rd of B is the melody note which is part of the reason it works. I think of the 9 as a reminder not to add b9 to it.

    I’m probably swimming beyond my depth here, but I think the B9 is acting as F7alt. The 9 of B is the #5 of F, so it works. The b9 wouldn’t.

    You mentioned preferring B7b5. Both the 5 and b5 of B are in F7alt, so either works as a tritone sub.

    The F# melodic minor scale works great over that B9. But that’s just another name for the Falt scale, so it makes sense it would!
    Melodic Minor – Altered Scale | Jens Larsen
    I know all that, I just don't like the sound of it, not as B9 anyway. It clashes, especially the C#/Db. So either straight B7 or B7b5. B7b5 is probably better as it's a true tritone.

    But I did like the Am7/D7 backdoor sub, that works.

    I suppose you know tritone subs contain exactly the same notes as each other?

    F7b5 = F Eb A B
    B7b5 = B A Eb F

  20. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    I guess my question is also one of how the harmony is actually working. I get the descending bass line, I just don't understand what's happening. I know that does not entirely make sense, maybe I'm over-thinking.
    In the end jazz is all about being able to generate melodies in your head on the spot. Improvisation is not a cognitive process on the bandstand. From a forum like this you might get the impression that jazz is all about knowing theory stuff but it is NOT. Typing the changes is not the same as being able to play them. The clips never lie.

    DB

  21. #95

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    The clips never lie
    Mine do :-)

    Not really, of course. If it's a good solo but I fingerslip, or a note sounds completely wrong, I'll tweak it. Otherwise it's do it again.

    I don't mind for myself but if it's going to be presented to the world, so to speak, then it may as well be right. Professional studios do that too.

  22. #96

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    Most of this thread is over my head, or zinging past it, but I thought I'd try to contribute.

    First off, there's context. Let's assume it's a casual or a jam. Everybody knows the tune. It's a quartet pgbd.

    So, the first thing that's likely to happen is that the bassist will do the descending line, but you're going to have to listen to how the pianist plays over it. And, as the tune progresses you're going to have to determine if he varies that, or keeps playing the first couple of chords the same way.

    When it's your turn to solo, hopefully you have an idea of what the chords are going to be. If he doesn't play it vanilla, can you recognize immediately what he's doing instead? If you can, then you have a shot at applying the sort of theory that this thread has been focusing on. Or so it seems to me. I can hear what he's doing, but I can't necessarily name it quickly, so I'm going to end up having to find notes by ear. Since, I'm likely to start a solo playing softly and sparsely, that can help. Allows me to hear the piano clearly and pick my notes carefully. If the pianist is off into the clouds harmonically, I'll start by paraphrasing the melody -- hard to go wrong with that. And, if the pianist is playing busily in the middle register, I might go into an upper octave to reduce the liklihood of clashes and mud.

    I hear the first two bars pretty much as an Ebmaj with a descending bass line. The next two feel like a continuation of the descending line. Maybe the tonal center goes from Eb to F (or Fm - Ralph Patt has it staying in Eb), two bars each. The melody in bars 5-6 and 7-8 seems like a parallel statement in what I hear as an ascending line. Think Ab6 Am7 Bb6 Bbm7. That leads nicely to Abmaj, then down a half step to G7 and hence to Cmaj. In saying this, I'm not distinguishing between the iim and V7 and I'm similarly equating m7 and the relative M6.

    To me, those are the bones of the tune. No matter what the pianist plays, he ought to be reflecting that. So, my role is to find a melody that fits. So, I scat sing, to myself, and try to play that. About the only theory I can apply is knowing the tonal center and chord tones and adding the spice by ear.

    I'll admit that I don't really understand the more theoretical approaches. And, I probably would be better off if I did. Nobody says they're for the bandstand. Rather the conventional wisdom is that they are for developing skills and vocabulary in the practice room. A lot of the scale choice discussion seems to revolve around a change of just a note or two from one approach to another. Can't that be done by ear?

    FWIW.

    Edit: With the guitar in my hands, I ended up with the following.

    The first two bars are all Cm7, give or take. For beats 3 and 4 of bar 1 (the G7) you might want to lower the C to a B.

    The next thing that makes this tune memorable is that Am7b5. If you started with Cm/C then Cm/B (that's bar 2) then Cm/Bb at the end of bar 2, you can consider that Am7b5 to be a continuation of the descending line, making that chord a Cm6 (same notes).

    At that point, the Cm6 becomes a pivot. Suddenly, it's an Am7b5 and it starts what amounts to a 3625 leading to Fm.

    Another pivot. The Fm, which begins its life in this tune as a target of a 3625, now becomes something else. In a vanilla world, it's the start of a four bar long ii V I in Eb. Then Eb moves to Eb7 (which feels like a root descending a whole step) and then to Ab, completing a V I.

    Commonly, this is played as Fm /Am7 D7 /Gm7/ ii V I in Ab. Why? Well, going back to bar 3, there's a possible guidetone line which can be G (G is over the Am7b5) then Gb F E and, for the Fm, Eb. Continuing down, we get to D (which might be a way to think about why that D7 works) and then the D7 resolves to Gm. Another pivot, since that Gm then becomes part of an Ebmaj9. Or so one might think.

    Irealpro has the Fm becoming the beginning of a ii V7 I in Eb. Then, with a move to Eb7 and then to Abmaj.

    To review, the first 6 bars can be seen as descending. It "resets" and the descending idea continues. The Ab in bar 9 drops a half step to G7. Maybe the motif is C (in the Ab) to B in the G7 and Cmaj7, then Bb in the Cm7, A in the F7, Ab in the Fm7 and Bb7.

    So, one idea is to hear the tune as this slow descent and phrase with that.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 06-30-2020 at 05:56 PM.

  23. #97

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    Like so many others here, you just typed a solo. I believe the magic of playing strong lines over changes can NEVER be captured in a before-the-fact summing up of scale possibilities. The fact is simply that good players do not play scales. The actual music you hear is the language and the scales are not that. CST may be a good starting point but if you get stuck with it and perceive and handle it as a definitive way to play jazz, you will end up sounding really bad.

    Personally I'd take a good solo and listen to what is going on there.

    I am not saying CST is without merit. But you have to move beyond all this scale talk. CST is not the jazz language in the end.

    I am saying this because the pontification on theory here goes on and on and on ... I find that kind of tiring and some might even think it's the definitive way to go. Well, I listened closely to the clips of all the heavy hitters on theory here and apparently there is no relation between knowing theory and playing well. That's because playing a good solo is a lot harder than typing one.

    CST is as much a good starting point as it is a false safety net.

    DB

  24. #98

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    I agree with Dick. Rather than sift through volumes of textual descriptions, try lifting some lines from this.


  25. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    I agree with Dick. Rather than sift through volumes of textual descriptions, try lifting some lines from this.

    This is one beautiful take. Indeed a 1000 times more valuable than any theoretical dissertation.

    DB

  26. #100

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    Hey Jack I certainly agree and am currently trying to immerse myself in various performances of this tune. I'd love to hear you give it a go. That's not a challenge, of course, but a wish. I think you'd bring something to this medium-tempo tune that would be inspiring.