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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    I agree with Dick. Rather than sift through volumes of textual descriptions, try lifting some lines from this.

    This is one beautiful take. Indeed a 1000 times more valuable than any theoretical dissertation.

    DB

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  3. #102

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    Hey Jack I certainly agree and am currently trying to immerse myself in various performances of this tune. I'd love to hear you give it a go. That's not a challenge, of course, but a wish. I think you'd bring something to this medium-tempo tune that would be inspiring.

  4. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog View Post
    Like so many others here, you just typed a solo. I believe the magic of playing strong lines over changes can NEVER be captured in a before-the-fact summing up of scale possibilities. The fact is simply that good players do not play scales. The actual music you hear is the language and the scales are not that. CST may be a good starting point but if you get stuck with it and perceive and handle it as a definitive way to play jazz, you will end up sounding really bad.

    Personally I'd take a good solo and listen to what is going on there.

    I am not saying CST is without merit. But you have to move beyond all this scale talk. CST is not the jazz language in the end.

    I am saying this because the pontification on theory here goes on and on and on ... I find that kind of tiring and some might even think it's the definitive way to go. Well, I listened closely to the clips of all the heavy hitters on theory here and apparently there is no relation between knowing theory and playing well. That's because playing a good solo is a lot harder than typing one.

    CST is as much a good starting point as it is a false safety net.

    DB
    I certainly resonate with your comments here, Dick. It was listening to your clip several weeks back that really got me thinking I wanted to use this tune as an extended study on soloing. I hope to post something soon. It won't be great, maybe not much of an improvement over what I posted earlier. But even when I'm playing the same things, it feels different. I feel like I can use this tune now to move around the instrument. I can hear things that I didn't hear before. I think it's also about time to move on, but playing this tune for a while every day, trying to improvise with it, and thinking about what I actually did when I liked what I played, has been good.

    Thanks for all that you contribute to this forum. I never miss one of your posts.

  5. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    Hey Jack I certainly agree and am currently trying to immerse myself in various performances of this tune. I'd love to hear you give it a go. That's not a challenge, of course, but a wish. I think you'd bring something to this medium-tempo tune that would be inspiring.
    I will do that. By the way, you should consider joining my fb group, modern jazz guitar. Jonathan Kreisberg, Adam Rogers, Stanley Jordan, Paul Bollenback, Randy Johnston, Pasquale Grasso, Peter Bernstein, Uffe Stein, Dan Wilson, Cecil Alexander, Peter Mazza, Rodney Jones and many other great players are there. We just started a new feature where each week or so, we post a backing track and all have a go playing over it.

    it's at www.facebook.com/groups/modernjazzguitar

  6. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    I will do that. By the way, you should consider joining my fb group, modern jazz guitar. Jonathan Kreisberg, Adam Rogers, Stanley Jordan, Paul Bollenback, Randy Johnston, Pasquale Grasso, Peter Bernstein, Uffe Stein, Dan Wilson, Cecil Alexander, Peter Mazza, Rodney Jones and many other great players are there. We just started a new feature where each week or so, we post a backing track and all have a go playing over it.

    it's at www.facebook.com/groups/modernjazzguitar
    I'd love to hear your approach on LSIL. That group sounds pretty high-powered. I might enjoy lurking, but int hat company, I think I'd need to keep my mouth shut!

  7. #106

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    I liked DB's post because, essentially, I agree with it.

    But, let's be fair, although theoretical analysis doesn't lead to good solos, playing a solo isn't some sort of magic. We have to have some idea of what we're doing before we begin otherwise you're looking at a potential car crash.

    Coltrane, in that vid, is playing a lot of runs with consecutive notes, not just arpeggios. They're obviously in sync with the chord/s so they must have some relation to those chords and the tune itself. To any ear they represent a scale, or part of one certainly.

    So one has to ask where the theory ends and the ability to play good notes starts? Sheer experience can't be given to someone, it has to come.

    I think rp has probably over-analysed it - and it won't by itself produce a fluid solo - but I wouldn't say that no sort of analysis at all is necessary, particularly of a new tune.

    Or, if we don't like the word analysis, let's call it preparation, or reconnaissance, or something :-)

  8. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I liked DB's post because, essentially, I agree with it.

    But, let's be fair, although theoretical analysis doesn't lead to good solos, playing a solo isn't some sort of magic. We have to have some idea of what we're doing before we begin otherwise you're looking at a potential car crash.

    Coltrane, in that vid, is playing a lot of runs with consecutive notes, not just arpeggios. They're obviously in sync with the chord/s so they must have some relation to those chords and the tune itself. To any ear they represent a scale, or part of one certainly.

    So one has to ask where the theory ends and the ability to play good notes starts? Sheer experience can't be given to someone, it has to come.

    I think rp has probably over-analysed it - and it won't by itself produce a fluid solo - but I wouldn't say that no sort of analysis at all is necessary, particularly of a new tune.

    Or, if we don't like the word analysis, let's call it preparation, or reconnaissance, or something :-)
    Considering I was actually trying to post a sort of anti-theoretical approach to the tune, the fact that it came across as an over-analysis shows how utterly I failed.

    I have posted repeatedly the notion of strumming the chords, scat singing, and putting that on the guitar. When you get bored with what you can create that way, then it's time to expand vocabulary. For me, that's best done by listening. I've gotten precious little from a lot of time expended with theory, and I've posted that ad nauseum.

    The point I was trying to make about Like Someone In Love was that almost the entire tune feels to me like a descending line and to phrase with that sound in mind.

    I tried to flesh out the details of how the tune accomplishes that.

    When I play this tune, I just try to maintain awareness of the sound of the song, melody and harmony, and play what I'm singing in my head. If I get hung up for some reason, I know the chord tones and I have a vague idea of the tonal centers. That awareness is the safety net, not the trapeze.

  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    Considering I was actually trying to post a sort of anti-theoretical approach to the tune, the fact that it came across as an over-analysis shows how utterly I failed.

    I have posted repeatedly the notion of strumming the chords, scat singing, and putting that on the guitar. When you get bored with what you can create that way, then it's time to expand vocabulary. For me, that's best done by listening. I've gotten precious little from a lot of time expended with theory, and I've posted that ad nauseum.

    The point I was trying to make about Like Someone In Love was that almost the entire tune feels to me like a descending line and to phrase with that sound in mind.

    I tried to flesh out the details of how the tune accomplishes that.

    When I play this tune, I just try to maintain awareness of the sound of the song, melody and harmony, and play what I'm singing in my head. If I get hung up for some reason, I know the chord tones and I have a vague idea of the tonal centers. That awareness is the safety net, not the trapeze.
    I get what you were saying. I think there is a difference between looking at the chords in abstraction and projecting possible solo ideas, versus playing over the changes and roughing out some ideas about what to do, expressed in terms of scale ideas. I took your words as the latter.

    Meanwhile, I continue to probe all the ways to be irredeemably lame playing this tune.

  10. #109

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    i wasn't inferring that rp's analysis was bad it's just that writing about improvising is tough because few people can read the technical details without their eyes glazing over. You guys might consider putting some of your ideas up on soundslice. I've been doing that lately and it seems to be very helpful.

  11. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    i wasn't inferring that rp's analysis was bad it's just that writing about improvising is tough because few people can read the technical details without their eyes glazing over. You guys might consider putting some of your ideas up on soundslice. I've been doing that lately and it seems to be very helpful.
    Both hearing good solo ideas and then seeing a brief explanation could be useful. I know that after-the-fact theory observations don't typically reproduce what was going on in the player's awareness in the moment, but it can still be insightful.

  12. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    Considering I was actually trying to post a sort of anti-theoretical approach to the tune, the fact that it came across as an over-analysis shows how utterly I failed.
    You didn't fail. I re-read your post and saw you'd actually emphasised practical rather than theoretical approaches, hence my post :-)

    But the whole thing did come over as a bit over-analytical at first glance, to be honest. I think that's what got all the reactions.

  13. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    consider putting some of your ideas up on soundslice.
    Oh, I've been suggesting that for years but it doesn't seem to be very popular. I do it frequently and always feel like a bit of a nuisance :-)

  14. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    rp -

    Going back to your post, I think there's no doubt about what you say. It's incontrovertible, the roots of the chords definitely descend:

    | Eb D | C Bb | A Ab | G C (could be F# tritone) |
    | F | Bb | Eb (A tritone) | Bb Eb (A tritone) |
    | Ab | G | C | % |

    You said you wanted to bring that out in your playing, in a solo. But how would you do it? Is there a danger it could sound a bit like a downward spiral and end up a bit gloomy? Possibly?

    What do you say? Have any recorded players you've heard done it that way?

    Just a thought. The melody, incidentally, doesn't do that, it sort of complements it. Or rather they compliment each other.

    Here we go, an annoying tiny soundclip!



    See, I'm not sure it makes a lot of difference, the tune still predominates.
    When I scat sing a line I don't seem to duplicate the downward motion. The first one I just did began with big jumps (octaves or close) generally moving in an upward direction. I didn't give it any conscious thought, but, in reviewing the idea, it felt like I was respecting the downward spiral without actually playing it. I'll try to do a video later. No matter what you do, the downward thing is in the tune anyway.

  15. #114

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    Perhaps the descending bass line could be suggested, not actually executed. By hitting a few, using guide tones, one could gesture at that pattern but not hew to it absolutely.

  16. #115

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    For what it's worth, here's my effort at ornamenting the tune and a solo. I made this about 3 weeks ago and posted it on another thread, but thought I'd post it here. My current efforts are not much different from this, though I think I'm feeling more confidence than I did when this was recorded, and I have a few more ideas I'm working with.

    For me, a big challenge is always knowing where I am in the form, and how to tag the changes just enough to keep things on track.


  17. #116

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    That was well thought out. It was just getting exciting when you stopped :-)

  18. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    That was well thought out. It was just getting exciting when you stopped :-)
    Better to leave folks wishing the clip had been longer!

  19. #118

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    All right. I take back everything I said.

    I sat down to play Like Someone In Love and couldn't think about any of what I wrote about. I hear the tune in my mind, and I play.

    I like some of it, I don't like all of it, but the better parts are characteristic of what I'm trying to do. The idea of pivots, scales etc - none of that stuff - crossed my mind. And, I can't always play what I scat sing -- seems to be mood related -- and I did that only to a limited degree in this take.



    For some reason, the file wouldn't load as an attachment. Even though the URL above worked fine when I pasted it into an address line. Sorry for any inconvenience.

  20. #119

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    rp -

    Hooray! But that was lovely. It didn't sound like you'd worked it all out, you weren't playing by rote like a machine, etc, it sounded fluent, it swung... how good has it got to be?

    Thank you. Do some more!

  21. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    rp -

    Going back to your post, I think there's no doubt about what you say. It's incontrovertible, the roots of the chords definitely descend:

    | Eb D | C Bb | A Ab | G C (could be F# tritone) |
    | F | Bb | Eb (A tritone) | Bb Eb (A tritone) |
    | Ab | G | C | % |

    You said you wanted to bring that out in your playing, in a solo. But how would you do it? Is there a danger it could sound a bit like a downward spiral and end up a bit gloomy? Possibly?

    What do you say? Have any recorded players you've heard done it that way?

    Just a thought. The melody, incidentally, doesn't do that, it sort of complements it. Or rather they compliment each other.

    Here we go, an annoying tiny soundclip!



    See, I'm not sure it makes a lot of difference, the tune still predominates.
    Makes the point. And, you found some melancholy in the tune -- I hadn't realized the tune could feel that way. It's very cool.

  22. #121

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    you found some melancholy in the tune
    Somewhat accidental, I suspect, but thank you :-)

    It's actually quite a fun test of soloing skills. Put down the bass for a 3-chord number like Happy Birthday or some easy country or folk song and you'll find it fairly easy to bring out the sound of the chords. But try it with a much more complex jazz tune and it's quite revealing.

  23. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    All right. I take back everything I said. I sat down to play Like Someone In Love and couldn't think about any of what I wrote about. I hear the tune in my mind, and I play.
    Exactly. You confirm my point that typing a solo is completely different than playing one. I see theoretical dissertations here - usually as advise to other players - by guys that use all kinds of scales and subs, sometimes pretty sophisticated stuff, that is totally absent in their own playing when I check out their clips. No melodic or harmonic minor content or altered sounds in miles around. In some cases it's no more than diatonic noodling. I find that kind of theoretical pontification by those players useless. It creates a separate reality from where you really are in your playing. It's not honest. It's posing.

    I don't give much advice here but I would suggest that if you cannot play what you pontificate on in an advice to others ... do not advise it. Way better is to post sound clips of stuff that you can play and discuss that!

    That said, RP jazzguitar, you have the guts to post clips and therefore kudos to you!!!!

    DB

  24. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    For me, a big challenge is always knowing where I am in the form, and how to tag the changes just enough to keep things on track.
    Nice going Lawson.

    DB

  25. #124

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    Looking forward to doing some great solos on this vintage axe I’ve bought.

    Soloing over "Like Someone In Love?"-0969bf93-3a66-4c80-8a2b-cf703c3a0c4c-jpg

  26. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Looking forward to doing some great solos on this vintage axe I’ve bought.

    Soloing over "Like Someone In Love?"-0969bf93-3a66-4c80-8a2b-cf703c3a0c4c-jpg
    Congrats on the new axe! I'm sure you can type some great solos on it!

    DB

  27. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog View Post
    Nice going Lawson.

    DB
    Coming from you that means a lot. All I'm "thinking" in this is about the handful of tension points. I'm also trying to think of melodies not licks, though the licks come in when I get momentarily confused. Or maybe momentarily not confused.

  28. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    All right. I take back everything I said.

    I sat down to play Like Someone In Love and couldn't think about any of what I wrote about. I hear the tune in my mind, and I play.

    I like some of it, I don't like all of it, but the better parts are characteristic of what I'm trying to do. The idea of pivots, scales etc - none of that stuff - crossed my mind. And, I can't always play what I scat sing -- seems to be mood related -- and I did that only to a limited degree in this take.



    For some reason, the file wouldn't load as an attachment. Even though the URL above worked fine when I pasted it into an address line. Sorry for any inconvenience.
    That was really nice. A very "singing" solo, which is what I long to be able to do consistently. Thanks for posting. I got some ideas that I hope to be able to use.

  29. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    Coming from you that means a lot. All I'm "thinking" in this is about the handful of tension points. I'm also trying to think of melodies not licks, though the licks come in when I get momentarily confused. Or maybe momentarily not confused.
    You can create tension when you play stuff that is not really there in the changes. The first 4 bars are Eb but I am playing a II V over them instead.


  30. #129

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    Late to the party, been busy--got a new puppy over here...

    Sat down this morning and just made a quick video. I think the A section is really the only tricky part...it gets easy to start chasing changes...

    I'm a big proponent of simplifying changes...not to the point of playing just key centers, but trying to eliminate stuff that's there for color and peel away the onion a bit to get at what's really happening.

    Anyway, see if this helps. I'll try and do a full take later, this is just me thinking out loud a bit.


  31. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog View Post
    Congrats on the new axe! I'm sure you can type some great solos on it!

    DB
    Thanks! First I need to fit a new ribbon, and decide which gauge of paper to use. Then spend a couple of years taking grammar and syntax lessons. After that I’ll be ready!

  32. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Thanks! First I need to fit a new ribbon, and decide which gauge of paper to use. Then spend a couple of years taking grammar and syntax lessons. After that I’ll be ready!
    Do not forget a seminar in advisory skills. Typing solos and giving online advice are two sides of the same coin!

    DB

  33. #132

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    Hi. Jeff, it's been so long... you seem to have survived the looting, etc. Good, not nice.

    I thought I might point out that Lawson put a sheet up on the first page here and bar 3 is down as F7/Bb7 before the Gm. That might have been confusing. You were using Aø/Ab7b5 which obviously makes a lot more sense as a lead-in to the Gm.

    Also, the melody's a strong F natural at bar 3. Wouldn't worry me, or you perhaps, but that might be another possible point of confusion over what is really a D7b9 sub.

  34. #133

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    Lol, I'm still using the old dealbook changes ain't I?

    Just checked, iReal is similar to mine.

    Seems like all my favorite versions are in Ab,anyway...maybe a little low on guitar...

    Nah, I like it. I'm relearning it in Ab with my old ass changes.

  35. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    That was really nice. A very "singing" solo, which is what I long to be able to do consistently. Thanks for posting. I got some ideas that I hope to be able to use.
    When a player asks for some ideas about how to approach a tune, the discussion can get pretty heady.

    I've posted before my idea that you strum the chords and scat sing. When you get something you like, play it.

    You do need to have the ability to play what you hear in your mind. Can you pick a random melody that you know but have never played, and play it starting on any fret/finger/string without mistakes, or close? That's a fundamental skill. You probably build it by watching TV and copying every bit of background music you hear. If you watch documentaries, you'll become better informed and barely know you're practicing. <g>

    Then, you need to be able to scat sing something that sounds good. I resist going too deeply into new theories because I already can scat sing stuff I can't play. So I figure I have to catch up to that first. Some players say they can't generate good lines while scatting ... if you can't do that how are you going to generate better lines on the guitar?

    I know one world class player who seems to derive a lot of useful material from theory, so I'm not disparaging it in any general way.

  36. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Late to the party, been busy--got a new puppy over here...

    Sat down this morning and just made a quick video. I think the A section is really the only tricky part...it gets easy to start chasing changes...

    I'm a big proponent of simplifying changes...not to the point of playing just key centers, but trying to eliminate stuff that's there for color and peel away the onion a bit to get at what's really happening.

    Anyway, see if this helps. I'll try and do a full take later, this is just me thinking out loud a bit.

    That's really helpful! I have indeed starting taking M3 as the A half-diminished. I also am playing that Ab something-or-other as an F half-diminished and it gives me a nice chromatic move to the Gm7. So your thinking here is pointing directly to what I've been groping toward.

    Thanks for the little lesson! This thread has been so helpful to me. The generosity with ideas and suggestions here has been encouraging!

  37. #136

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    Some thoughts on voice leading the harmony while comping the tune. Apologies in advance for the overdetailed nature of this post.

    First two bars: hold an Eb triad (third fret) (or Cm) and pass the bass line down, Eb D C Bb. The second chord is dissonant, but I like it. For the third chord try x3544x. - it doesn't sound that great, but it has a certain something.

    Another thing to try is to hold xxx88x with your index finger. Then grab Eb at the 13th fret of the D string and pass it down from there.

    Bars 3 and 4: If you did the thing at the 8th fret, then just continue the moving line to A at the 7th fret. That gives you A Eb G which is 75% of the Ahalfdim.

    The next chord is Ab7, so, to continue the movement, drop the A to Ab and play xx687x. That's R 5 b7 for the Ab7. Then for Bar 4, move to xx576x. For the C7, you can move to xx575.
    Or, maybe, 8x875x

    More likely, though, I think I'd use the approach at the 3rd fret. After the C7/Bb I'd go to 5x554x, then 4x456x. Bar 4: 3x333x and 2x232x

    Bar 5. The moving bass line is now (starting from the top) Eb D C Bb A Ab G Gb (that Gb would be the tritone of the C7 in bar 4).

    So, in Bar 5, we have an F, which continues the line very nicely and voice leads smoothly.

    Bar 6 is Am7 D7, which, I suppose you could play as Am7/E and D7. I don't care for the sound of that, though. For an E in the bass I like 0x67xx.

    At that point, I hear the line as going to Ebmaj9 and thence to Eb7. So, from Bar 5 it's Fm7/F, Bb7/E, Ebmaj/Eb and Ebmaj/Db.

    Next up is Ab. Put a C in the bass and you've continued the descending bass line.

    I'll stop here.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 07-02-2020 at 07:47 PM.

  38. #137

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    i think you don't want to outline the bass movement in your solo. It's not very common and i haven't heard anyone do that. More important is hitting the 3rds, 7ths and (b9 in the case of the 7th chords) of the relevant chords IMO...

  39. #138

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    Definitely.

    That descending bassline is what messes everybody up.

  40. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Definitely.

    That descending bassline is what messes everybody up.
    My thought is that it's there in the structure of the tune. Or, at least one way to hear it.

    You might hear the descending line explicity stated in the bass or piano, or you might not, depending on their choices. You often hear it in the first two bars, though.

    Either way, the idea is to be aware of it, not to explicitly state it. Of course, you don't have to and you could conceptualize the whole thing some other way.

  41. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Seems like all my favorite versions are in Ab,anyway...maybe a little low on guitar...

    Nah, I like it. I'm relearning it in Ab with my old ass changes.
    Most of the great recordings of the tune are in Ab.

    Gb: Original film score; Nancy Wilson '67.
    G: Sonny Rollins '57.
    Ab: Sinatra '54; Stan Getz '56; Nat King Cole '56; Coltrane '58; Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers '55 and '60;
    F: Sarah Vaughn '58; Bill Evans '62
    C: Paul Bley '53, Bud Powell '55, Coleman Hawkins '57, Barry Harris '76.

    and they all have something different for the first four bars!

    People only play it in Eb because that's what's been spread by the Real Book.

  42. #141

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    The first four bars in the original film score are:

    | Gb Bbm/F | Ebm Bbm/Db | Ab7/C Db/Cb | Gb/Bb |

    That's | I iii(with 5th in bass) | vi iii (with 3rd in bass) | IIV (with 3rd in bass) V (with 7th in bass) | I (with 3rd in bass)

    This is just a turnaround back to I.
    Last edited by David B; 07-03-2020 at 04:28 PM.

  43. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    My thought is that it's there in the structure of the tune.
    Oh it definitely is, I just think it's better to simplify the harmony for blowing.

  44. #143

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    Most, probably all, versions have two chords in bar 3 to accommodate the dratted bass line. However, Stan Getz used the usual two doms (D7/G7 in Bb) but didn't bother with the bass line.

    Sounds good to me. We really don't need to torture ourselves trying to play something if it's too tricky. Not worth it. The two doms aren't a problem, just a few notes will do it.

    Last edited by ragman1; 07-05-2020 at 01:40 PM.

  45. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by David B View Post
    The first four bars in the original film score are:

    | Gb Bbm/F | Ebm Bbm/D | Ab7/C Db/Cb | Gb/Bb |

    That's | I iii(with 5th in bass) | vi iii (with 3rd in bass) | IIV (with 3rd in bass) V (with 7th in bass) | I (with 3rd in bass)

    This is just a turnaround back to I.
    A couple of typos:
    The third chord should be Bbm/Db.
    The sixth chord would be Db7/Cb.
    Otherwise that makes sense as an original score.

  46. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I must have done so many versions by now. I did one in C, slightly reharmed, and posted it. No one bothered with it!

    Most, probably all, versions have two chords in bar 3 to accommodate the dratted bass line. However, Stan Getz used the usual two doms (D7/G7 in Bb) but didn't bother with the bass line.

    Sounds good to me. We really don't need to torture ourselves trying to play something if it's too tricky. Not worth it. The two doms aren't a problem, just a few notes will do it.

    Bar 7 of the solo. Against Dm, a prominent G#. Leading, somehow, to a B against Fm7. And it all sounds so smooth. I'm confident someone will have a great theoretical explanation, post hoc. But, Stan Getz could just hear that stuff, is my guess. Brilliant player.

  47. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    Bar 7 of the solo. Against Dm, a prominent G#. Leading, somehow, to a B against Fm7. And it all sounds so smooth. I'm confident someone will have a great theoretical explanation, post hoc. But, Stan Getz could just hear that stuff, is my guess. Brilliant player.
    He's pre-empting the Fm. Think Ab rather than G#. He does the same the next time round too. The final time he lands right on it. And B's the tritone. Or the blue note, however you look at it.

  48. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    He's pre-empting the Fm. Think Ab rather than G#. He does the same the next time round too. The final time he lands right on it. And B's the tritone. Or the blue note, however you look at it.
    He hits that Ab on beat 3 and then "resolves" it by hitting a B as the chord changes to Fm7. I usually hear that foreshadowing of the chord thing either started later, or using a straight arp. And, then, not leaning on the tritone of a minor chord. He does it more conventionally later in the tune.

    So, just to start an argument, could you teach somebody to do that by saying, change the chord early and lean on the tritone of a m7? I don't think that would help someone learn to do what Stan Getz did. I think it had to do with the entire melodic feel of his improv, the way he played the time in a relaxed manner and even his tone -- so gentle the ear doesn't hear harshness.

    Maybe you could assign a student "play over the chord sequence and resolve to the tritone on the Fm, and make sure it sounds like music". In fact, I think I may work on that later.

  49. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

    "...and make sure it sounds like music". In fact, I think I may work on that later.
    That's all I work on!
    What else is there?
    Seriously...

  50. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    He hits that Ab on beat 3 and then "resolves" it by hitting a B as the chord changes to Fm7. I usually hear that foreshadowing of the chord thing either started later, or using a straight arp. And, then, not leaning on the tritone of a minor chord. He does it more conventionally later in the tune.

    So, just to start an argument, could you teach somebody to do that by saying, change the chord early and lean on the tritone of a m7? I don't think that would help someone learn to do what Stan Getz did. I think it had to do with the entire melodic feel of his improv, the way he played the time in a relaxed manner and even his tone -- so gentle the ear doesn't hear harshness.

    Maybe you could assign a student "play over the chord sequence and resolve to the tritone on the Fm, and make sure it sounds like music". In fact, I think I may work on that later.
    The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain

  51. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post


    Check this out this reharm of chopsticks. Some absolute cheek going on:

    The punctuation is all over the place as well