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  1. #1

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    I barely even picked up a guitar til about the time I joined this forum. I was very familiar with jazz, and decided to learn to play it on an instrument as an adult. It was either gonna be a piano or guitar-a self-contained orchestra. I chose the modular, portable one.

    Here’s the problem learning guitar and jazz as an adult—no Eddie Van Halen period that everyone else has as a kid. No real understanding of the power and usage of major and minor pentatonics and their unbelievable and versatile usage in jazz lines. Way way beyond what rock and roll musicians employ.

    I’m rectifying that, finally. Mea culpa. Got a whole bunch of stuff to work on. But it’ll come, in time.

    Anybody else never have a “rock guitar” YOUTH period, with a lot of pentatonics usage? I must be pretty rare. Oh well.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    I had my rock phase. The problem with rock guitarists who try to play jazz is that they ask "what one pentatonic scale should I play over Girl From Ipanema?"

    There are many good videos about adding pentatonics to soloing in diatonic tunes. (Pentatonics in modal tunes are a different story.) I like Jens.



    That's a different viewpoint than, say, blues rock.

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    I barely even picked up a guitar til about the time I joined this forum. I was very familiar with jazz, and decided to learn to play it on an instrument as an adult. It was either gonna be a piano or guitar-a self-contained orchestra. I chose the modular, portable one.

    Here’s the problem learning guitar and jazz as an adult—no Eddie Van Halen period that everyone else has as a kid. No real understanding of the power and usage of major and minor pentatonics and their unbelievable and versatile usage in jazz lines. Way way beyond what rock and roll musicians employ.

    I’m rectifying that, finally. Mea culpa. Got a whole bunch of stuff to work on. But it’ll come, in time.

    Anybody else never have a “rock guitar” YOUTH period, with a lot of pentatonics usage? I must be pretty rare. Oh well.
    I also never played "rock guitar" or even the blues before I started on jazz guitar. Instead I played the violin since I was 10 and all the way up to 10th grade. I was in the school orchestra. Thus I learned music theory, how to read music and playing a fret less instrument developed a very good ear. But my timing was weak since I rarely would play continually as a 5th chair in the violin section. In addition I never played alone expect to practice. I.e. my individual sound wasn't as important as the overall sound the 5th - 7th chair violin section would make when playing classical music.

    Thus my struggle has always been with timing and keeping a solid rhythm. As far as penatonics; I was able to learn and utilize these over jazz standards quickly. What took me time and something I'm still working on is getting out of the only-8th-note solo. I just saw a posting here of a piano player and how to develop swinging triplets. I need to balance the use of 8th notes with triplets (as well as 1\4 notes and 1\16 note 'runs') more.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    I barely even picked up a guitar til about the time I joined this forum. I was very familiar with jazz, and decided to learn to play it on an instrument as an adult. It was either gonna be a piano or guitar-a self-contained orchestra. I chose the modular, portable one.

    Here’s the problem learning guitar and jazz as an adult—no Eddie Van Halen period that everyone else has as a kid. No real understanding of the power and usage of major and minor pentatonics and their unbelievable and versatile usage in jazz lines. Way way beyond what rock and roll musicians employ.

    I’m rectifying that, finally. Mea culpa. Got a whole bunch of stuff to work on. But it’ll come, in time.

    Anybody else never have a “rock guitar” YOUTH period, with a lot of pentatonics usage? I must be pretty rare. Oh well.
    i see this in adult students a lot. it is a problem.

  6. #5

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    I played rock in my early 20's, not as a kid. As a kid I played the mandolin and recorder.
    I don't see rock as a stepping stone for guitarist even though it's a common path. Many people come to jazz from classical or country/folk backgrounds.

    The way I learned pentatonic soloing was based on learning licks and modifying them on the fly. That's a lot easier than in jazz as you stay in one position and not worry too much about playing the changes and modulations. Playing major pentatonic on the I chord, minor pentatonic on the IV chord was the more "advanced" version. I'm sure there are guitarist who use more sophisticated pentatotic applications in blues and rock but most solos I transcribed (Eric Clapton, David Gilmour etc) seemed to stay mostly in the simple minor pentatonic/blues scale domain.

    Of course jazz applications of pentatonics is a whole other world. I never really explored pentatonics in jazz as I'm afraid of resurrecting old tired lines.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Of course jazz applications of pentatonics is a whole other world. I never really explored pentatonics in jazz as I'm afraid of resurrecting old tired lines.
    Check out the Jens Larsen video I posted above. Doesn't sound old and tired. He is slipping back and forth between pentatonic sounds and more bebop sounds.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    Check out the Jens Larsen video I posted above. Doesn't sound old and tired. He is slipping back and forth between pentatonic sounds and more bebop sounds.
    Oh yeah, I didn't mean that the use of pentatonics equate to tired lines. I meant it might lead me to repeating my old pentatonic box fingering habits.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 04-27-2020 at 07:38 PM.

  9. #8

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    Howard Roberts did a series of columns for Guitar Player back in the day on utilizing pentatonics in creative ways. A check of their archives could be fruitful.

  10. #9

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    Rockers who play pentatonics and who think they can play jazz with pentatonics are fooling themselves. No question about it. It's just nonsense.

    Like most 'tricks', they just come in useful now and again, that's all.

  11. #10

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    I don't think so... I love pentatonics. I mean they are just like a scale or arpeggio, you don't have to play all the notes all the time. They're just a reference to develop etc... And they have always had natural fingerings on the guitar...
    I know back in the late 60's and on into the 70's I performed with some monsters ... breckers, bob berg, mintzer, Tom Coster , Steve Smith...many more...there were a ton of jazz fusion gigs happening. And being able to shred pentatonics... not just the basic patterns... anyway having the skills opened many doors. I have to admit those years are a little foggy... But more fun than playing the hotel jazz gigs.

  12. #11

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    Reg -

    a reference to develop
    Absolutely, a reference to develop. You can do all sorts with pentatonics, altered pentatonics, invent-your-own pentatonics, etc etc. But that's advanced playing. I was talking about rock players who've played every solo with a pentatonic, especially the ubiquitous Am (!). I've met them in real life and seen them here - so have you, I'm sure.

    Then they drift on to jazz, like a lot of players do eventually, and think 'Oh, I can play jazz with my pentatonics, it'll be so easy'. It's not, they can't. If only... Imagine if Wes or Jimmy Raney had only used pentatonics!

    But, sure, advanced and skilful players certainly - but not exclusively, it's not possible - unless the kind of jazz you're playing is more like rock music than what I'd consider jazz. And there's quite a lot of that about.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Reg -



    Absolutely, a reference to develop. You can do all sorts with pentatonics, altered pentatonics, invent-your-own pentatonics, etc etc. But that's advanced playing. I was talking about rock players who've played every solo with a pentatonic, especially the ubiquitous Am (!). I've met them in real life and seen them here - so have you, I'm sure.

    Then they drift on to jazz, like a lot of players do eventually, and think 'Oh, I can play jazz with my pentatonics, it'll be so easy'. It's not, they can't. If only... Imagine if Wes or Jimmy Raney had only used pentatonics!

    But, sure, advanced and skilful players certainly - but not exclusively, it's not possible - unless the kind of jazz you're playing is more like rock music than what I'd consider jazz. And there's quite a lot of that about.
    What you outline has been my experience when jamming with "rockers" especially on instrumental songs that I added to our play-list like Equinox, Sweet Georgia Brown, etc.. (songs that don't use those so called fancy jazz chords!). I'm glad you mention Jimmy Raney because he is a prime example of the different approach we take; Their use of mostly the penoatonic scale results in 'riffs' and short repeated lines and phrases, while I'm trying to create longer lines like Raney (yea, something I still have to work on after 20 years).
    Sometimes when I'm in the zone I can even stretch those lines over more than 4 bars, lie 6 to 8 bars.

    Like already noted those penoatonic scale 'riffs' can sound great and they are useful to know, but like most things in music, when they are overused or that is about the only thing in one bag-of-tricks, after a chorus or two,,, it can get old.

  14. #13

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    I think that's the point. Pentatonics are useful, I use them myself, but as a method for playing good jazz, no. That might change in the hands of an expert but you'd have to be damn good and know exactly how to use them and when.

    I once went to a show featuring a well-known player and walked out because he was trying to get through it playing pentatonics. You could see his hand poodling up and down the Am thing. I mean, it wasn't even rock-jazz. I had the strong impression he was just using the gig as a practice session. Not on, really. I paid to see it and it wasn't that cheap.

    something I still have to work on after 20 years
    That's what they don't-want-to-do.

    As we're being controversial, I might float much the same idea about triads. That's the latest thing (I think) - don't bother with the s-word (scales), just fiddle with a lot of three note thingys, no prob.

    No way, sorry. Now prepare for the wrath of the TRIAD-MEN!

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    I barely even picked up a guitar til about the time I joined this forum. I was very familiar with jazz, and decided to learn to play it on an instrument as an adult. It was either gonna be a piano or guitar-a self-contained orchestra. I chose the modular, portable one.

    Here’s the problem learning guitar and jazz as an adult—no Eddie Van Halen period that everyone else has as a kid. No real understanding of the power and usage of major and minor pentatonics and their unbelievable and versatile usage in jazz lines. Way way beyond what rock and roll musicians employ.

    I’m rectifying that, finally. Mea culpa. Got a whole bunch of stuff to work on. But it’ll come, in time.

    Anybody else never have a “rock guitar” YOUTH period, with a lot of pentatonics usage? I must be pretty rare. Oh well.
    Cool, I started playing rock and still do.

    I would say it was of marginal help in a musical sense in helping to play jazz, but it helped with technical facility and knowing the notes on the fret board. That takes some time.

    Rock is less about pure musicality in general and more about ... visceral fun. I mean yea, you have shredders and stuff, but that's a smaller %.

    Jazz music and jazz players are in a word ... scary, lol. But I love the music so I must play...

  16. #15

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    Well, let's remedy this, because pentatonics, even that good ol first position blues box, are everywhere in jazz.

    So much of jazz comes from blues...and a little blues almost always fits in jazz.

    Learn the first two positions of minor pentatonic this week, and listen to this album a lot. It'll change your guitar playin' life.


  17. #16

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    I never formally learned pentatonic other than the "blues scale." When I started studying guitar in college, the instructor was a jazz player and suckered me into it after about the 3rd lesson when he was bored of blues. So I went from the "blues" scale to the major scale that week and never went back. As a result I am a crappy rock player. The closest to rock I can get is the Dead.

    The thing about pentatonics is that when you restrict your options, you sometimes spur creativity. Having all the notes available can result in flabby, meandering, overly chromatic playing. There was that older trumpet player guy who put lessons up on YouTube using paired sets of pentatonics, including blowing through "Giant Steps" and avoided all of that. Taught lines cutting through.

  18. #17

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    I believe the major scale is a lot more important.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    I believe the major scale is a lot more important.
    Overall, yes, but we're not talking about rank...we're talking about what's to be gained from approaching the guitar like a guitar.

  20. #19

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    I think this summarizes a bunch of what has been said...

    There is more than one way you can use pentatonics.

    1. Like a rock guitarist.
    2. Like a good jazz saxophonist.

    Be like the sax player.

  21. #20

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    Just to clarify, I know what pentatonics are, just haven't practiced them with emphasis. Unlike the 6 note Blues scale. Or, alternatively, the 6 note GOSPEL blues scale, which I try to use a lot. What is that? Just the major pentatonic with an added b3. I love the gospel blues scale a lot.

    It's true what Peter Bernstein said about getting away from cliches-he specifically hated improvising with what he called BOX patterns--In the demo of what he meant by that he basically was playing pentatonic scales across the neck. He was saying get away from that.

    I think it's like anything else, a tool for the imagination.

    We only play what we practice, rigorously. Just saying I never emphasized integrated this seriously in practice and in tunes and in improvisation. So, it doesn't magically show up on a regular basis.

    One thing I'm gonna sit down and integrate into everything is what Vic Juris recommended (RIP Vic!)

    Vic Juris ii-V7-I-VI7 minor pentatonic scales


    in a ii-V7-I -VI7 (Dm7-G7-CM7-A7) play a minor pentatonic moving up a half step with each chord:


    A minor pentatonic (Dm7) -------ii minor
    Bb minor pentatonic (G altered)---V7 ALT
    B minor pentatonic for CM7 lydian (#4) IM7#4
    C minor pentatonic for A7 alt VI ALT
    Db Minor and Eb Minor pentatonic —Sidestep for Dm7, ie, Dm pentatonic

  22. #21

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    Ah, fuck all that. I transcribed Hank Mobley's first chorus on "A Baptist Beat" last week. Almost the whole thing is playable using box shape pentatonics, and it's awesome.

    It ain't the box that's the problem.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    I barely even picked up a guitar til about the time I joined this forum. I was very familiar with jazz, and decided to learn to play it on an instrument as an adult. It was either gonna be a piano or guitar-a self-contained orchestra. I chose the modular, portable one.

    Here’s the problem learning guitar and jazz as an adult—no Eddie Van Halen period that everyone else has as a kid. No real understanding of the power and usage of major and minor pentatonics and their unbelievable and versatile usage in jazz lines. Way way beyond what rock and roll musicians employ.

    I’m rectifying that, finally. Mea culpa. Got a whole bunch of stuff to work on. But it’ll come, in time.

    Anybody else never have a “rock guitar” YOUTH period, with a lot of pentatonics usage? I must be pretty rare. Oh well.
    No, I was a young rocker starting around 1966. The pentatonic minor scale was taught to me at early guitar lessons but I don't think the instructor even knew it was called pentatonic. Eventually I met a guitarist that showed me that playing the same scale 3 frets lower could be used for some of those Clapton riffs. (Major Pentatonic).

    Next, I added a couple of notes to the minor pent because I was listening to Carlos Santana, Terry Kath, Tommy Bolin etc. Found out later it was Dorian mode. I learned more from other guitarist friends (and copping off of records) than I did taking lessons.

    Anyway, there are other (non musical) things in my life where I wish I would have started out with the basics.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Ah, fuck all that. I transcribed Hank Mobley's first chorus on "A Baptist Beat" last week. Almost the whole thing is playable using box shape pentatonics, and it's awesome.

    It ain't the box that's the problem.
    Yea, my dad taught me that at a very early age; Son, it isn't the sand box that is the problem but how you play with others in the the sand box.
    Last edited by jameslovestal; 04-29-2020 at 02:20 PM.

  25. #24

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    Which is not to say all that other stuff ain't great. But there's SO MUCH just in that simple minor pentatonic that can work even when used in it's most basic, straightforward way...and to me, that's the place to start.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Ah, fuck all that. I transcribed Hank Mobley's first chorus on "A Baptist Beat" last week. Almost the whole thing is playable using box shape pentatonics, and it's awesome.

    It ain't the box that's the problem.
    Yeah, Peter was talking about people who never break away from the box. That's the problem. When I started taking lessons, I learned to build chords from triads to 7ths, extensions, all kinds of minor scales, the major scales, melodic minor, functional harmony, extensions, chord tones, tensions, etc. That's what I was taught. The box was bypassed altogether.

  27. #26

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    I getcha...that's what I'm saying, really. Jump in the box and mess around a bit. There's absolutely nothing to fear about the box.

    I think we get this idea that everything in jazz has to be "elevated" or something...but it really doesn't.

  28. #27

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    Yea... I still like using Pents... it's fun. I mean you don't always need to perform for everyone else. It's cool to have fun. I couldn't remember the vid I posted... but found it. Dolphin Dance... my improve is all Pent based and Maj7 arps... I just checked it out... it's cool, I don't really have the chops of my youth but I'm still having fun. I remember when I made this vid for JGF... that night at one of my gigs I call Dolphin and extended that vamp in between choruses, anyway we went over the top.

  29. #28
    Okay. I'll be honest. Those pentatonic runs are a complete blindspot in my ability to see/hear. I feel pretty certain that if I actually learned those sequences that you posted several weeks ago using pentatonic's , that I would probably be able to hear them a lot better. But it's definitely something that I think you probably basically have to be able to play in the first place to hear.

    Also, there is the YouTube bandwidth/bit rate/quality thing. Slowdown feature somewhat breaks down at the speed you're playing some of these pentatonic runs, though I've never tried to transcribe this one.

    Is there a possibility you could do something with this "human speed"? :-)

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Yea... I still like using Pents... it's fun. I mean you don't always need to perform for everyone else. It's cool to have fun. I couldn't remember the vid I posted... but found it. Dolphin Dance... my improve is all Pent based and Maj7 arps... I just checked it out... it's cool, I don't really have the chops of my youth but I'm still having fun. I remember when I made this vid for JGF... that night at one of my gigs I call Dolphin and extended that vamp in between choruses, anyway we went over the top.
    Lol, I always thought that vamp could be about 28 bars longer

  31. #30

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    There's sophisticated rock guitarists, too. It ain't all beating a pentatonic into submission unless that's what you settle for. EJ, Vai, Satriani, Skolnick. Funny enough, both EJ and Satch use pentatonics liberally, but do so modally and thereby avoid the cliches.

  32. #31

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    Most rock guitarists seem to be constrained by thinking of the fretboard as a series of territories, most of which remain unexplored. The twelfth fret, in particular, is a barrier: they play on either side, but not over it. The physical effect of this limited approach can be seen on the fretboards of guitars for sale: the wear is concentrated in two or three areas. Study of Reg’s rather superb rendition of Dolphin Dance would be of great benefit to their owners.

  33. #32

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    Next, I added a couple of notes to the minor pent because I was listening to Carlos Santana, Terry Kath, Tommy Bolin etc. Found out later it was Dorian mode.
    I smiled at this as I did the same thing, but through watching and listening to Rory Gallagher, an Irish rocker. Getting the two 'good notes' (9 and 6) behind the barré was a real opener. Until I did that to death too...

    BOX patterns
    All instruments I assume have semi-insuperable mechanisms you just have to live with. Like the unavailability of enough minor seconds in a guitar chord (unless you are Frank Gambale). The pentatonic box shapes are just those. You could also say, everything on a guitar will be box shaped in some way though the boxes may be wider and only involve a few strings.

    just fiddle with a lot of three note thingys
    They're quite nice to play with but as you say, just a tool.

    My feeling about all of this is, these are just FACTS of the guitar. Not music.

    In the cases of both triads and pentatonics it's the intervals which are the important things. That's why we enjoy learning and playing them. It's an easy way to sound interesting, but it's also easy to sound mindnumbingly tedious. If you don't think melodically or musically and only think technically you will only be 'fiddling' with triads, or playing 'boxes'. It's certainly happening with major scales too; just listen to some of the unthinking streams of quavers, the predictable patterns which were interesting at the start of a fashion and which are now just clichés.

    Don't play technically! Don't run 'your stuff'! Have some humility and LISTEN to what you're playing (and the backing as importantly), then it won't matter how you did it. Pentatonics, triads and the rest are all just combinations that it's worth knowing as you can be 'located' on the wasteland of the fingerboard when you know them.

    But 'the map is not the territory' (my favourite quote ) and you have to think about what you are saying, otherwise it's just so much note running.

  34. #33

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    Hey Matt... yea. I'll make some PDFs of expanded use of pents. And possible fingerings. The difficult part... is I don't just use one or two techniques etc... I generally have a few layers of BS going on. But sure that's a good idea. I'll get some posts.

    This sort of opens that door to what one plays and what one hears. Some play a med. tempo line of single notes, some use that same approach but the single notes are small collections of notes. And those collection of notes can have a few different organizations going on.

    What's the difference between playing single notes... and creating a melody or melodic line. Or creating a melody or melodic line using.... single licks.

    I'll get into the different approaches...

  35. #34

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    Here's another example from way back... last century, I think it was from a session at N Texas.... I suck... but I suck with pents.LOL
    Attached Files Attached Files

  36. #35

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    Hey Hugo:
    I smiled at this as I did the same thing, but through watching and listening to Rory Gallagher, an Irish rocker. Getting the two 'good notes' (9 and 6) behind the barré was a real opener. Until I did that to death too...
    I saw Rory Gallagher perform in Denver 1973 in a club that held about 300 people. Our agent also invited us to meet Rory after the show. He was calm when I shock hands with him but on stage he was very energetic and enthusiastic. And like you, I picked up some of what he was doing. Within a year after that I started listening to Jazz guitar players and doing what I could to pick up a few riffs from them.

    I look at pentatonics as triad arpeggios with 2 notes added or a 7 note scale - 2 notes. Playing a pentatonic sequence riff a fret higher than the key signature is a device some Jazzers use now and then. I'd guess that most here have heard that done many times.

  37. #36

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    I think one of the problems with all this is that certain things have been separated out for assessment - pentatonics here, triads there, scales here, other things there. As though they were all separate from each other.

    When I play, I chuck the whole thing in together. I may have learnt them separately, obviously, but, in playing, one uses everything as a whole. If I need a scale, I use it. Then I might see a pentatonic would sound good, so in it goes. Coming to an altered sound, I'd use whatever worked at that point... and so on.

    We might learn these things one by one but in real life it all gets thrown into the mix together; everything compliments everything else.

    I think that produces the best music.

  38. #37

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    Pentatonics were around before Eric Clapton! Anyone still listen to Swing? Or even just Pres? I'm talking major pentatonic, with and without the usual chromatic passing notes. Sure there's the half dozen or so patterns we all went crazy for in our youth that is the minor pent "Rock" sound, but when you crossed to over to Jazz I hope you signed on pledging to never, ever, use those licks in a Jazz setting! For me, and plenty of others I'm sure, it's an immediate turn off, especially the bendy licks or the "too much vibrato" thing...

    It took me a long time to get re acquainted with pents after I realised that the 60's horn and piano cats were using them in particular ways. Now I treat them as 5 tone arpeggios and make up my own variations for different chords in different settings. It was a great way to introduce wider intervals with out straight arps as I tend to like heavy chromaticism and needed to break things up. A different pent type for Subdom, one for Dom, one for Alt Dom and one for Maj tonic can go a long way and make you sound like you're hitting every change. The other thing I'll say is that it's easy to sound melodic when you limit your choices to just 5 notes per chord. Just that one extra note (when compared with the normal 4 note arp) makes so much difference! And eliminating 2 notes from the full scale or mode makes it easier to avoid clangers while being easier to pre hear - which will allow you to really "sing" with your lines.

    I have shown this idea to rock guys wanting to improv over jazz type tunes, and their usual instinct is to play those damn lick based lines, so you need to show them ways to replace old habits with new. Not everyone is happy to do that, but at least one guy was, who once shown, was soon playing legit sounding swing era type lines against common standards. Interestingly he also seemed to get the ways to fill in chromatically just by hearing where it worked and where it didn't.

    Now, compare that to how he might have fared trying to learn jazz improv from books, or even a teacher bent on teaching how he/she learned things. I can tell you with certainty that guys like him have no patience and will throw in the towel at the first hurdle. He listens to jazz now and gets the language better. He's listening to more bop and hard bop and tries to find an approximation of that language through this pentatonic "prism". He's onto alt sounds by using dim arps with added notes, or TT subbing dom pents. He's covering all the food groups and doing it organically. Damn it, it took less than a couple of years to sound Jazzy crossing over from straight blues rock. It took me considerably longer!

    So yeah, pents are a great way to crossover, rock guys are used to 2 notes per string and can pre-hear pents way easier than full scales. Even just adding 9ths to arps is a good rule of thumb, and being aware of swapping or adding 6ths and 7ths. Get them to practice over ii V I VI(alt) , and they get to understand how the 4 main food groups work together. Then point them to AL and ATTYA and off they go... I've mentioned this a couple of times in the past, but I really feel that to keep Jazz guitar alive, we need to help the rockers cross over to the real dark side! Without scaring them, but also without holding their hand for too long either ...

  39. #38

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    Nice post Prince...

  40. #39

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    I got sunshine on a cloudy day.

    The My Girl lick is a straight major pentatonic.

    Sing that to yourself and then improvise using those notes.

    Then, find another harmonic application, strum the chord and sing those notes, improvising with them.

    Seems to me this might be a good thing to do.

  41. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Nice post Prince...
    Cool, thanks. Does this mean I can now tell people that this "from rock to jazz pentatonic crossover method" is Reg approved?

  42. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Pentatonics were around before Eric Clapton! Anyone still listen to Swing? Or even just Pres? I'm talking major pentatonic, with and without the usual chromatic passing notes. Sure there's the half dozen or so patterns we all went crazy for in our youth that is the minor pent "Rock" sound, but when you crossed to over to Jazz I hope you signed on pledging to never, ever, use those licks in a Jazz setting! For me, and plenty of others I'm sure, it's an immediate turn off, especially the bendy licks or the "too much vibrato" thing...
    This is a link between country and jazz. Those minor pents just don't jive with the majority of the vocab. Yes, you do gotta know when to throw those blue notes in at the right time, but basically hearing that minor third all the time over major changes sounds unauthentic.

  43. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Cool, thanks. Does this mean I can now tell people that this "from rock to jazz pentatonic crossover method" is Reg approved?
    That might get post discredited and loose readers...

  44. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    That might get post discredited and loose readers...
    hehe, hardly, I heard that if you score enough Reg "likes" on this forum, you win a gold watch...

  45. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Well, let's remedy this, because pentatonics, even that good ol first position blues box, are everywhere in jazz.

    So much of jazz comes from blues...and a little blues almost always fits in jazz.

    Learn the first two positions of minor pentatonic this week, and listen to this album a lot. It'll change your guitar playin' life.

    First of all, much appreciation for keeping the memory and influence of Magic Sam alive. I learned the basics of music (i.e. how to count to four) from a friend and protege of his.

    That aside, I think the term "pentatonics" is a misnomer, especially in the context of blues and blues-derived music. The "minor third" is, in fact, an infinitely variable range of inflections, each of which communicates a distinct tonality and corresponding emotion. Also, the third in blues often has a rising inflection from minor toward major. This movement conveys meaning, which is why blues is so deceptively difficult.

  46. #45

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    The gaping hole for learning jazz and guitar as an adult: PENTATONICS-bh-solo-png

    Good enough for Barry Harris good enough for me.

  47. #46

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    Looks like that G7 might be G7alt ...isn't that an Ab

  48. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Looks like that G7 might be G7alt ...isn't that an Ab
    Seems more like Db to me.

  49. #48

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    I posted that analysis to point out that, at the master level of Dr Harris, when certain things are demonstrated to be available we probably would be wise not to resign them to one genre.

    As for the G7...although I don't have all of BH's materials I don't think he thinks in those terms.

    Over G7 I believe he was thinking G7 ok, tritone...C#7 dim scale...so, whole-tone run and I'll land on the 5 of C#7.

  50. #49

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    Yea could be Db7#11 or C#7, (what's the difference), the point was it didn't look like Whole tone.
    Sorry Wilson... OK it's C#whole tone with an added nat. 5th... my mistake.

  51. #50

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    I don’t think Barry would bother writing G7alt. No point. You can always use the Db7 on a G7. Or a whole tone. Or Abm6-dim. Or Bb7. Or whatever.

    Barrys thinking is very chunked. Basic chords in the chart are elaborated through improvisation.