The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I barely even picked up a guitar til about the time I joined this forum. I was very familiar with jazz, and decided to learn to play it on an instrument as an adult. It was either gonna be a piano or guitar-a self-contained orchestra. I chose the modular, portable one.

    Here’s the problem learning guitar and jazz as an adult—no Eddie Van Halen period that everyone else has as a kid. No real understanding of the power and usage of major and minor pentatonics and their unbelievable and versatile usage in jazz lines. Way way beyond what rock and roll musicians employ.

    I’m rectifying that, finally. Mea culpa. Got a whole bunch of stuff to work on. But it’ll come, in time.

    Anybody else never have a “rock guitar” YOUTH period, with a lot of pentatonics usage? I must be pretty rare. Oh well.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    I had my rock phase. The problem with rock guitarists who try to play jazz is that they ask "what one pentatonic scale should I play over Girl From Ipanema?"

    There are many good videos about adding pentatonics to soloing in diatonic tunes. (Pentatonics in modal tunes are a different story.) I like Jens.



    That's a different viewpoint than, say, blues rock.

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    I barely even picked up a guitar til about the time I joined this forum. I was very familiar with jazz, and decided to learn to play it on an instrument as an adult. It was either gonna be a piano or guitar-a self-contained orchestra. I chose the modular, portable one.

    Here’s the problem learning guitar and jazz as an adult—no Eddie Van Halen period that everyone else has as a kid. No real understanding of the power and usage of major and minor pentatonics and their unbelievable and versatile usage in jazz lines. Way way beyond what rock and roll musicians employ.

    I’m rectifying that, finally. Mea culpa. Got a whole bunch of stuff to work on. But it’ll come, in time.

    Anybody else never have a “rock guitar” YOUTH period, with a lot of pentatonics usage? I must be pretty rare. Oh well.
    I also never played "rock guitar" or even the blues before I started on jazz guitar. Instead I played the violin since I was 10 and all the way up to 10th grade. I was in the school orchestra. Thus I learned music theory, how to read music and playing a fret less instrument developed a very good ear. But my timing was weak since I rarely would play continually as a 5th chair in the violin section. In addition I never played alone expect to practice. I.e. my individual sound wasn't as important as the overall sound the 5th - 7th chair violin section would make when playing classical music.

    Thus my struggle has always been with timing and keeping a solid rhythm. As far as penatonics; I was able to learn and utilize these over jazz standards quickly. What took me time and something I'm still working on is getting out of the only-8th-note solo. I just saw a posting here of a piano player and how to develop swinging triplets. I need to balance the use of 8th notes with triplets (as well as 1\4 notes and 1\16 note 'runs') more.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    I barely even picked up a guitar til about the time I joined this forum. I was very familiar with jazz, and decided to learn to play it on an instrument as an adult. It was either gonna be a piano or guitar-a self-contained orchestra. I chose the modular, portable one.

    Here’s the problem learning guitar and jazz as an adult—no Eddie Van Halen period that everyone else has as a kid. No real understanding of the power and usage of major and minor pentatonics and their unbelievable and versatile usage in jazz lines. Way way beyond what rock and roll musicians employ.

    I’m rectifying that, finally. Mea culpa. Got a whole bunch of stuff to work on. But it’ll come, in time.

    Anybody else never have a “rock guitar” YOUTH period, with a lot of pentatonics usage? I must be pretty rare. Oh well.
    i see this in adult students a lot. it is a problem.

  6. #5

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    I played rock in my early 20's, not as a kid. As a kid I played the mandolin and recorder.
    I don't see rock as a stepping stone for guitarist even though it's a common path. Many people come to jazz from classical or country/folk backgrounds.

    The way I learned pentatonic soloing was based on learning licks and modifying them on the fly. That's a lot easier than in jazz as you stay in one position and not worry too much about playing the changes and modulations. Playing major pentatonic on the I chord, minor pentatonic on the IV chord was the more "advanced" version. I'm sure there are guitarist who use more sophisticated pentatotic applications in blues and rock but most solos I transcribed (Eric Clapton, David Gilmour etc) seemed to stay mostly in the simple minor pentatonic/blues scale domain.

    Of course jazz applications of pentatonics is a whole other world. I never really explored pentatonics in jazz as I'm afraid of resurrecting old tired lines.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Of course jazz applications of pentatonics is a whole other world. I never really explored pentatonics in jazz as I'm afraid of resurrecting old tired lines.
    Check out the Jens Larsen video I posted above. Doesn't sound old and tired. He is slipping back and forth between pentatonic sounds and more bebop sounds.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    Check out the Jens Larsen video I posted above. Doesn't sound old and tired. He is slipping back and forth between pentatonic sounds and more bebop sounds.
    Oh yeah, I didn't mean that the use of pentatonics equate to tired lines. I meant it might lead me to repeating my old pentatonic box fingering habits.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 04-27-2020 at 07:38 PM.

  9. #8

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    Howard Roberts did a series of columns for Guitar Player back in the day on utilizing pentatonics in creative ways. A check of their archives could be fruitful.

  10. #9

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    Rockers who play pentatonics and who think they can play jazz with pentatonics are fooling themselves. No question about it. It's just nonsense.

    Like most 'tricks', they just come in useful now and again, that's all.

  11. #10

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    I don't think so... I love pentatonics. I mean they are just like a scale or arpeggio, you don't have to play all the notes all the time. They're just a reference to develop etc... And they have always had natural fingerings on the guitar...
    I know back in the late 60's and on into the 70's I performed with some monsters ... breckers, bob berg, mintzer, Tom Coster , Steve Smith...many more...there were a ton of jazz fusion gigs happening. And being able to shred pentatonics... not just the basic patterns... anyway having the skills opened many doors. I have to admit those years are a little foggy... But more fun than playing the hotel jazz gigs.

  12. #11

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    Reg -

    a reference to develop
    Absolutely, a reference to develop. You can do all sorts with pentatonics, altered pentatonics, invent-your-own pentatonics, etc etc. But that's advanced playing. I was talking about rock players who've played every solo with a pentatonic, especially the ubiquitous Am (!). I've met them in real life and seen them here - so have you, I'm sure.

    Then they drift on to jazz, like a lot of players do eventually, and think 'Oh, I can play jazz with my pentatonics, it'll be so easy'. It's not, they can't. If only... Imagine if Wes or Jimmy Raney had only used pentatonics!

    But, sure, advanced and skilful players certainly - but not exclusively, it's not possible - unless the kind of jazz you're playing is more like rock music than what I'd consider jazz. And there's quite a lot of that about.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Reg -



    Absolutely, a reference to develop. You can do all sorts with pentatonics, altered pentatonics, invent-your-own pentatonics, etc etc. But that's advanced playing. I was talking about rock players who've played every solo with a pentatonic, especially the ubiquitous Am (!). I've met them in real life and seen them here - so have you, I'm sure.

    Then they drift on to jazz, like a lot of players do eventually, and think 'Oh, I can play jazz with my pentatonics, it'll be so easy'. It's not, they can't. If only... Imagine if Wes or Jimmy Raney had only used pentatonics!

    But, sure, advanced and skilful players certainly - but not exclusively, it's not possible - unless the kind of jazz you're playing is more like rock music than what I'd consider jazz. And there's quite a lot of that about.
    What you outline has been my experience when jamming with "rockers" especially on instrumental songs that I added to our play-list like Equinox, Sweet Georgia Brown, etc.. (songs that don't use those so called fancy jazz chords!). I'm glad you mention Jimmy Raney because he is a prime example of the different approach we take; Their use of mostly the penoatonic scale results in 'riffs' and short repeated lines and phrases, while I'm trying to create longer lines like Raney (yea, something I still have to work on after 20 years).
    Sometimes when I'm in the zone I can even stretch those lines over more than 4 bars, lie 6 to 8 bars.

    Like already noted those penoatonic scale 'riffs' can sound great and they are useful to know, but like most things in music, when they are overused or that is about the only thing in one bag-of-tricks, after a chorus or two,,, it can get old.

  14. #13

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    I think that's the point. Pentatonics are useful, I use them myself, but as a method for playing good jazz, no. That might change in the hands of an expert but you'd have to be damn good and know exactly how to use them and when.

    I once went to a show featuring a well-known player and walked out because he was trying to get through it playing pentatonics. You could see his hand poodling up and down the Am thing. I mean, it wasn't even rock-jazz. I had the strong impression he was just using the gig as a practice session. Not on, really. I paid to see it and it wasn't that cheap.

    something I still have to work on after 20 years
    That's what they don't-want-to-do.

    As we're being controversial, I might float much the same idea about triads. That's the latest thing (I think) - don't bother with the s-word (scales), just fiddle with a lot of three note thingys, no prob.

    No way, sorry. Now prepare for the wrath of the TRIAD-MEN!

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    I barely even picked up a guitar til about the time I joined this forum. I was very familiar with jazz, and decided to learn to play it on an instrument as an adult. It was either gonna be a piano or guitar-a self-contained orchestra. I chose the modular, portable one.

    Here’s the problem learning guitar and jazz as an adult—no Eddie Van Halen period that everyone else has as a kid. No real understanding of the power and usage of major and minor pentatonics and their unbelievable and versatile usage in jazz lines. Way way beyond what rock and roll musicians employ.

    I’m rectifying that, finally. Mea culpa. Got a whole bunch of stuff to work on. But it’ll come, in time.

    Anybody else never have a “rock guitar” YOUTH period, with a lot of pentatonics usage? I must be pretty rare. Oh well.
    Cool, I started playing rock and still do.

    I would say it was of marginal help in a musical sense in helping to play jazz, but it helped with technical facility and knowing the notes on the fret board. That takes some time.

    Rock is less about pure musicality in general and more about ... visceral fun. I mean yea, you have shredders and stuff, but that's a smaller %.

    Jazz music and jazz players are in a word ... scary, lol. But I love the music so I must play...

  16. #15

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    Well, let's remedy this, because pentatonics, even that good ol first position blues box, are everywhere in jazz.

    So much of jazz comes from blues...and a little blues almost always fits in jazz.

    Learn the first two positions of minor pentatonic this week, and listen to this album a lot. It'll change your guitar playin' life.


  17. #16

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    I never formally learned pentatonic other than the "blues scale." When I started studying guitar in college, the instructor was a jazz player and suckered me into it after about the 3rd lesson when he was bored of blues. So I went from the "blues" scale to the major scale that week and never went back. As a result I am a crappy rock player. The closest to rock I can get is the Dead.

    The thing about pentatonics is that when you restrict your options, you sometimes spur creativity. Having all the notes available can result in flabby, meandering, overly chromatic playing. There was that older trumpet player guy who put lessons up on YouTube using paired sets of pentatonics, including blowing through "Giant Steps" and avoided all of that. Taught lines cutting through.

  18. #17

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    I believe the major scale is a lot more important.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    I believe the major scale is a lot more important.
    Overall, yes, but we're not talking about rank...we're talking about what's to be gained from approaching the guitar like a guitar.

  20. #19

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    I think this summarizes a bunch of what has been said...

    There is more than one way you can use pentatonics.

    1. Like a rock guitarist.
    2. Like a good jazz saxophonist.

    Be like the sax player.

  21. #20

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    Just to clarify, I know what pentatonics are, just haven't practiced them with emphasis. Unlike the 6 note Blues scale. Or, alternatively, the 6 note GOSPEL blues scale, which I try to use a lot. What is that? Just the major pentatonic with an added b3. I love the gospel blues scale a lot.

    It's true what Peter Bernstein said about getting away from cliches-he specifically hated improvising with what he called BOX patterns--In the demo of what he meant by that he basically was playing pentatonic scales across the neck. He was saying get away from that.

    I think it's like anything else, a tool for the imagination.

    We only play what we practice, rigorously. Just saying I never emphasized integrated this seriously in practice and in tunes and in improvisation. So, it doesn't magically show up on a regular basis.

    One thing I'm gonna sit down and integrate into everything is what Vic Juris recommended (RIP Vic!)

    Vic Juris ii-V7-I-VI7 minor pentatonic scales


    in a ii-V7-I -VI7 (Dm7-G7-CM7-A7) play a minor pentatonic moving up a half step with each chord:


    A minor pentatonic (Dm7) -------ii minor
    Bb minor pentatonic (G altered)---V7 ALT
    B minor pentatonic for CM7 lydian (#4) IM7#4
    C minor pentatonic for A7 alt VI ALT
    Db Minor and Eb Minor pentatonic —Sidestep for Dm7, ie, Dm pentatonic

  22. #21

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    I transcribed Hank Mobley's first chorus on "A Baptist Beat" last week. Almost the whole thing is playable using box shape pentatonics, and it's awesome.

    It ain't the box that's the problem.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    I barely even picked up a guitar til about the time I joined this forum. I was very familiar with jazz, and decided to learn to play it on an instrument as an adult. It was either gonna be a piano or guitar-a self-contained orchestra. I chose the modular, portable one.

    Here’s the problem learning guitar and jazz as an adult—no Eddie Van Halen period that everyone else has as a kid. No real understanding of the power and usage of major and minor pentatonics and their unbelievable and versatile usage in jazz lines. Way way beyond what rock and roll musicians employ.

    I’m rectifying that, finally. Mea culpa. Got a whole bunch of stuff to work on. But it’ll come, in time.

    Anybody else never have a “rock guitar” YOUTH period, with a lot of pentatonics usage? I must be pretty rare. Oh well.
    No, I was a young rocker starting around 1966. The pentatonic minor scale was taught to me at early guitar lessons but I don't think the instructor even knew it was called pentatonic. Eventually I met a guitarist that showed me that playing the same scale 3 frets lower could be used for some of those Clapton riffs. (Major Pentatonic).

    Next, I added a couple of notes to the minor pent because I was listening to Carlos Santana, Terry Kath, Tommy Bolin etc. Found out later it was Dorian mode. I learned more from other guitarist friends (and copping off of records) than I did taking lessons.

    Anyway, there are other (non musical) things in my life where I wish I would have started out with the basics.

  24. #23

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    Which is not to say all that other stuff ain't great. But there's SO MUCH just in that simple minor pentatonic that can work even when used in it's most basic, straightforward way...and to me, that's the place to start.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I transcribed Hank Mobley's first chorus on "A Baptist Beat" last week. Almost the whole thing is playable using box shape pentatonics, and it's awesome.

    It ain't the box that's the problem.
    Yeah, Peter was talking about people who never break away from the box. That's the problem. When I started taking lessons, I learned to build chords from triads to 7ths, extensions, all kinds of minor scales, the major scales, melodic minor, functional harmony, extensions, chord tones, tensions, etc. That's what I was taught. The box was bypassed altogether.

  26. #25

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    I getcha...that's what I'm saying, really. Jump in the box and mess around a bit. There's absolutely nothing to fear about the box.

    I think we get this idea that everything in jazz has to be "elevated" or something...but it really doesn't.