The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    .
    V I resolution , the Tritone thing ....
    can't we agree to call that 'functional harmony'

    hey pingu, i think this is where confusion may arise tri-tone is Function and can be identified as such ie .

    ie Dm7 Db7 CM7 Db7 is TT for G7 .is functioning as substitute in this case a TT,

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Durban
    hey pingu, i think this is where confusion may arise tri-tone is Function and can be identified as such ie .

    ie Dm7 Db7 CM7 Db7 is TT for G7 .is functioning as substitute in this case a TT,
    yes i agree ...

    theres no confusion about that
    (that i can see)

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    I find it's teachers that get most caught up in trying to understand some abstract stuff so they can codify it. They can't seem to validate themselves unless they figure out how to put that "lightning in a bottle", so they can sell it to others......"this is the way it works"....

    I like jazz because you just make it up as you go.
    If I understand it, part of Regelski’s point is that music teachers are not held to account on the results of their teachings, and perhaps they should be. That goes wider; for instance what is music education for?

    these are questions I’d rather not ask tbh, but they mark me on that shit.
    i just want music to exist because music is great, and I’d like to help people get better at it.

    in fact, my position as a pedagogue is; there’s far too much pedagogy and not nearly enough getting on with it. Really, there should be musical situations and people learn from being in them.

    If anything there’s more of it here since lockdown.... I’m wondering if there’s ways we can extend and develop online communities, because that’s probably what it’s going to be for the foreseeable.

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    yes i agree ...

    theres no confusion about that
    (that i can see)
    i wanted to see if we could all
    agree to call that stuff ‘functional harmony’

    probably not possible ...

    i am not confused

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    i wanted to see if we could all
    agree to call that stuff ‘functional harmony’

    probably not possible ...

    i am not confused
    See Regelski above lol.

    The ‘functional harmony of the jazz fake book’ as opposed to the super aesthetic/classical definition of Jonah.

    And that’s fairly loose around the edges ... but we all basically know what it means. And we know when Wayne goes Fmaj7 Bm7 that’s not GASB style harmony which we call functional.

    if that bothers anyone we could simply call it ‘unusual’

  7. #56

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    OK... I know this thread is about anything besides functional and non-functional harmony, and most already understand.... but just in case some don't....

    I'll skip the Common Practice period developments of "Function" and "Functional Harmony"... If you want list of standard text, ask, or just go to wikipedia and get the short version. You end up with Diatonicism as foundation for Tonal System....anyway Moving forward to Jazz...

    "Functional Harmony" basically describes Chords in a Harmonic Progression that derive their "Function" from their Relationship to a Key Center. (Function is the organization that creates the perception of Movement or Non-movement).

    Chords in a "Functional Harmonic Context", are Diatonic or belonging to the Key and Key-related non-diatonic chords that are Borrowed from other parallel Modes. Modal Interchange Chords.

    Non-Functional Harmonic Chords generally don't have a perceived Tonal Center or Key. These Non-Functional progressions get "Function"... from established Patterns, adjacent chordal Relationships, Root Motion and Relationship to a Melody.

    Usually there is mixture of both Functional and Non-Functional styles in Non-Functional music

    The Functional Harmonic Characteristics are...(and expanded from)
    -Harmonic "Chord Patterns"
    -Cadences and Deceptive Cadences... resolutions
    -Line Cliches, Harmonic Progressions, Melodic and Harmonic Phrases
    -Established Key Area(s)
    -Harmonic Rhythm... Rhythm style, melody and improv or soloing

    Non-Functional Characteristics...
    -Key Areas... Implied, Ambiguous, Poly Tonality/Modality
    -Root Motions
    -FORMS
    -Bass Functions
    -Rhythm, Melody, Harmonic Progressions, Ambiguous Chord Types and Instrumentation
    -Constant Structure Chords
    -Pedal Points, Contiguous Harmonic Patterns...
    -Multi-tonic systems and their reharmonizations

    These aspects of composition and analysis will help understand contemporary jazz tunes...Shorter, Corea, etc...

    Helps non-Functional jazz become Functional... or at least understand the systems which will help with performing etc... or if nothing else you'll have some new Aesthetic and Praxial terminology to BS with, maybe make your playing seem better. LOL I have no idea... I generally just Play... but too much time now. I can actually break all the BS above down if interested.

  8. #57

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    This would be a really insightful direction to go if you could break down the above in some more detail. Specifically, the non functional organisations. Cool thanks

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    OK... I know this thread is about anything besides functional and non-functional harmony, and most already understand.... but just in case some don't....

    I'll skip the Common Practice period developments of "Function" and "Functional Harmony"... If you want list of standard text, ask, or just go to wikipedia and get the short version. You end up with Diatonicism as foundation for Tonal System....anyway Moving forward to Jazz...

    "Functional Harmony" basically describes Chords in a Harmonic Progression that derive their "Function" from their Relationship to a Key Center. (Function is the organization that creates the perception of Movement or Non-movement).

    Chords in a "Functional Harmonic Context", are Diatonic or belonging to the Key and Key-related non-diatonic chords that are Borrowed from other parallel Modes. Modal Interchange Chords.

    Non-Functional Harmonic Chords generally don't have a perceived Tonal Center or Key. These Non-Functional progressions get "Function"... from established Patterns, adjacent chordal Relationships, Root Motion and Relationship to a Melody.

    Usually there is mixture of both Functional and Non-Functional styles in Non-Functional music

    The Functional Harmonic Characteristics are...(and expanded from)
    -Harmonic "Chord Patterns"
    -Cadences and Deceptive Cadences... resolutions
    -Line Cliches, Harmonic Progressions, Melodic and Harmonic Phrases
    -Established Key Area(s)
    -Harmonic Rhythm... Rhythm style, melody and improv or soloing

    Non-Functional Characteristics...
    -Key Areas... Implied, Ambiguous, Poly Tonality/Modality
    -Root Motions
    -FORMS
    -Bass Functions
    -Rhythm, Melody, Harmonic Progressions, Ambiguous Chord Types and Instrumentation
    -Constant Structure Chords
    -Pedal Points, Contiguous Harmonic Patterns...
    -Multi-tonic systems and their reharmonizations

    These aspects of composition and analysis will help understand contemporary jazz tunes...Shorter, Corea, etc...

    Helps non-Functional jazz become Functional... or at least understand the systems which will help with performing etc... or if nothing else you'll have some new Aesthetic and Praxial terminology to BS with, maybe make your playing seem better. LOL I have no idea... I generally just Play... but too much time now. I can actually break all the BS above down if interested.
    Reg..perhaps you can do a 20min stand up routine at a local music school...it would sure be far more entertaining than "diatonic aesthetic praxial" chord relations

  10. #59

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    I see non functional harmony as something complimentary to functional one. There are many devices used in jazz compositions (such as multitonics, constant structures, intervallic movements, so on), that are not part of functional harmony. Guess you mix classical, blues and jazz, you come up with this!

    It sure is a different thing to navigate through when improvising, Wayne Shorters compositions being an excellent example..

  11. #60

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    I think what would actually be more useful is to hear some other people apart from me play on Wayne's tunes (has Reg got a Wayne vid? I'll have a look), and then give us a little background on how they are approaching it.

  12. #61

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    I could, but would you take it from me?

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I could, but would you take it from me?
    sure although you might go, ‘these are the scales, but I don’t really use that’ or something haha

    Anyway that would be the dreaded Praxis.... playing Wayne’s tunes as well as discussing them, showing as well as telling .

  14. #63

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    PS
    There was one air by Bach that actually was almost a sonata allegro form, I will find it later and post.. just would be interesting how you would hear it

    cool
    Christian, I could not remember. I even called a friend with whom discussed but he could not remember too.

    You know it is like l have an image of it, but I cannot remember real music or words.

    I can pick some other piece, or even if you like you could pick something really familiar to you from baroque music in conventional form like concerto, sonata, aria da capo... even fugues (fugue is not form as it is often stated, fugues have different forms).
    It could be easier if you already know it.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    sure although you might go, ‘these are the scales, but I don’t really use that’ or something haha
    I don't know yet, I might. But what's wrong with that?

    Anyway that would be the dreaded Praxis.... playing Wayne’s tunes as well as discussing them, showing as well as telling .
    Oh, you'll get the showing. Anyone can talk.

  16. #65

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    Okay, I'm going to do Iris. Looking at it now. OMG !

    Well, one thing right off is - if you listen to Wayne's solo (very nice) at 1.10 - I'm not convinced the band are playing all the altered chords, or he's ignoring them. He's zooming around too many straight sounds, like Eb maj. When he gets to the AbM7#5 he stops dead because you can hear that's got the #5.

    But we'll see, early days yet.


  17. #66

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    I've worked out what I'm going to do but other things call... you'll have it tonight.

  18. #67

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    My guidelines for teaching chord progression in the style of Wayne Shorter, Pat Metheny, ECM artists, etc (E.D.O.)

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by half-steps, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by half-steps, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by whole steps, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by whole steps, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by minor thirds, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by minor thirds, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by major thirds, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by major thirds, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by perfect 4ths, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by perfect 4ths, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by augmented 4ths, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by augmented 4ths, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    We have now explored equal division of the octave.

    Freely mix any of the above, it's up to you.
    Last edited by rintincop; 05-05-2020 at 02:52 PM.

  19. #68

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    Maiden Voyage = minor third movements, half step movements and whole step movements
    Last edited by rintincop; 05-05-2020 at 02:54 PM.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    My guidelines for teaching chord progression in the style of Wayne Shorter, Pat Metheny, ECM artists, etc (E.D.O.)

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by half-steps, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by half-steps, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by whole steps, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by whole steps, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by minor thirds, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by minor thirds, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by major thirds, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by major thirds, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by perfect 4ths, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by perfect 4ths, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by augmented 4ths, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by augmented 4ths, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    We have now explored equal division of the octave.

    Freely mix any of the above, it's up to you.
    So basically, you are saying there's no theoretical basis.

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    My guidelines for teaching chord progression in the style of Wayne Shorter, Pat Metheny, ECM artists, etc (E.D.O.)

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by half-steps, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by half-steps, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by whole steps, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by whole steps, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by minor thirds, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by minor thirds, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by major thirds, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by major thirds, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by perfect 4ths, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by perfect 4ths, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by augmented 4ths, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by augmented 4ths, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    We have now explored equal division of the octave.

    Freely mix any of the above, it's up to you.
    thats a lot of typing man

    nice gag tho !

  22. #71

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    The theoretical basis is equal division of the octave.

  23. #72

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    Christian -

    Okay, here it is. I expect yours soon!

    Background:

    I listened to Wayne and Miles' versions and a couple of others. The vid I put up is Wayne doing a live solo (not on the original). Sounds too lyrical to me to be true to the chords I've got, as I said, but that's okay; the crowd liked it.

    So it's a question of finding decent notes over the chords. I'm not CST but I thought each chord/sound had to be done independently, but with coherence.

    Don't forget it's just me at home, there's no band. The backing is sparse which probably only makes the whole thing rather bleak.

    I used the Real Book version of the chords. If that won't do, or isn't right, too bad. It's what I had.

    you might go, ‘these are the scales, but I don’t really use that’ or something haha
    Not wrong... but I don't say 'these are the scales'. I took what were probably the 'correct' versions and tried them. But I threw some out because I preferred other sounds in context.

    The Fm11 ought to be Dorian, I suppose, but I went for Aeolian because it was softer. I thought Dorian was harsh, at least the way I played it.

    The EM7#11 ought to be Lydian but I used C# mel because I preferred it. Likewise the GbM7#11 was Eb mel.

    I used Bb alt over the Bb7+. All the Db7#11's, again, should probably be Ab mel but I did Db alt.

    I thought about using a C triad over the AbM7#5 but didn't because it was too obvious. So I stuck with an Fm sound.

    Cm7 was Dorian. That was good enough. And the Dmb6 was just a sort of AM7 sound.

    I'm perfectly sure a better player could make something more of it but I do what I do. At least you have a version. Which, apart from its bleakness, sounds okay to me - but I could be too close to it to see it clearly.

    Sorry, you get the tune twice. Gets you in the mood :-)

    Last edited by ragman1; 05-09-2020 at 01:11 AM.

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    The theoretical basis is equal division of the octave.
    Unless the tune is based on that principle - like a Coltrane cycle, all you’ve said is that the roots of the chords move by intervals.

    Again, I feel that actually checking out a lot of music by certain composers will reveal preferences for certain moves, conscious or unconscious.

    Obvious example, Wayne really likes alternating a m7 chord with a maj7#11 a semitone higher.

    So a ‘stamp collector’ approach can be more useful than a theorist approach.

    my hunch anyway.

    Back to the same thing... learn a lot of tunes

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Christian -

    Okay, here it is. I expect yours soon!

    Background:

    I listened to Wayne and Miles' versions and a couple of others. The vid I put up is Wayne doing a live solo (not on the original). Sounds too lyrical to me to be true to the chords I've got, as I said, but that's okay; the crowd liked it.

    So it's a question of finding decent notes over the chords. I'm not CST but I thought each chord/sound had to be done independently, but with coherence.

    Don't forget it's just me at home, there's no band. The backing is sparse which probably only makes the whole thing rather bleak.

    I used the Real Book version of the chords. If that won't do, or isn't right, too bad. It's what I had.



    Not wrong... but I don't say 'these are the scales'. I took what were probably the 'correct' versions and tried them. But I threw some out because I preferred other sounds in context.

    The Fm11 ought to be Dorian, I suppose, but I went for Aeolian because it was softer. I thought Dorian was harsh, at least the way I played it.

    The EM7#11 ought to be Lydian but I used C# mel because I preferred it. Likewise the GbM7#11 was Eb mel.

    I used Bb alt over the Bb7+. All the Db7#11's, again, should probably be Ab mel but I did Db alt.

    I thought about using a Db triad over the AbM7#5 but didn't because it was too obvious. So I stuck with an Fm sound.

    Cm7 was Dorian. That was good enough. And the Dmb6 was just a sort of AM7 sound.

    I'm perfectly sure a better player could make something more of it but I do what I do. At least you have a version. Which, apart from its bleakness, sounds okay to me - but I could be too close to it to see it clearly.

    Sorry, you get the tune twice. Gets you in the mood :-)

    Thanks for this, I will check it out later.

    I’ve already posted analyses and playing on two Wayne tunes above, but I will post more if you really want lol. Good excuse to work on more Wayne.

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Unless the tune is based on that principle - like a Coltrane cycle, all you’ve said is that the roots of the chords move by intervals.

    Again, I feel that actually checking out a lot of music by certain composers will reveal preferences for certain moves, conscious or unconscious.

    Obvious example, Wayne really likes alternating a m7 chord with a maj7#11 a semitone higher.

    So a ‘stamp collector’ approach can be more useful than a theorist approach.

    my hunch anyway.

    Back to the same thing... learn a lot of tunes
    I am also for learning through language and idioms.
    I studies classical as a kid through playing and listening to turnarounds - thanks to good teacher - the theoretic things came much later.

    But it should not make illusion of mechanical approach... idioms are meanings, there are used because they mean something.
    At the level of mature mastery - ususually one does not think of idioms at all -- only about meanings, i.d. you compose music becasue you want to tell something about your childhood, or about how hungry you are and want a scrumbled eggs, or about something you do not know yet and want to find out with music...