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  1. #251

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Wayne’s original changes were:

    / Fm9 / Emaj7 Gbmaj7 / Emaj7 Db7 / Cmaj9
    / Cmaj9 / Cmin9 / Dbmaj7 Cmin9 / Db7b5 Amaj9
    / G+9 C9b5 / /

    according to the book I mentioned before, this is from the deposited lead sheet at Library of Congress. (The tune started out as a 10-bar theme in 4:4).
    reading the same book, illustrates the obscured Fm tonality of the piece. Curious though about bar 7 and the Ab maj7 nat5/#5 which is marked in the lead sheet from E.S.P., the bar starts w a D nat, the #11/b5, but Wayne’s solo does not touch the D

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #252

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Harmonically, yeah not really what I though he was. Paraphrases the melody a LOT. In a weird way it sounds to me like the harmony is coincidental. He’s not playing the changes in the way that you might if you had the changes and played on each chord. He’s sitting at the centre of it?.
    This was in part what caused the infamous rant against Shorter that spread like wildfire through the jazz press some years ago. There are early recordings where Wayne does play conventionally over changes but it's not really where he lives. As Joel points out and you suggest above, Shorter's approach is more post-Pres, gnomic, discursive and occasionally mischievous. Incidentally, he composed the tribute tune, Lester Left Town for Art Blakey's Messengers (The Big Beat) and navigates his own changes without any problems.


  4. #253

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    Great tune.

    Stan Getz took the 'mysticism' out Wayne's original changes (with II Vs---for shame!), and changed the melody a bit. And why not? Sounds great. (I like the original myself)...


  5. #254

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    i actually learned my first bits of bebop vocabulary from Wayne so yeah.

    He just doesn’t spaff chord scales on his tunes. It’s interesting to me that he doesn’t do this.

    You know jazz educators focus on a core of musicians that are easy to systematise in terms of pitch choices and vocabulary. So in their own ways, Parker, Bud Powell, Bill Evans and Herbie all fit this to some degree.... so their approach becomes the mainstream approach everyone uses. And everyone ends up approaching things in the same sort of way....

    theres something unsatisfying about the harmony driven approach to me now... see the Steve Swallow quote on the other thread.... playing the song not just using whatever stuff you have off the shelf.

    it also gives me a clue how to play my own music and god knows I need help with that. Everyone else smokes me at my own tunes haha.

  6. #255

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    Pianists refer to the characteristic melodic minor voicing as b3 5 7 9, (or it’s common inversion 7, 9, b3, 5 ) a rootless voicing. It is applicable and interchangeable to all 7 modes of the parent melodic minor scale. Hancock moves that particular melodic minor voicing almost as freely in and out as McCoy Tyner moves his 4th voicing in and out of key on Passion Dance.
    that’s also like a George Russel thing.

    anyway, yes this is by now a fairly obvious application of melodic minor .

  7. #256

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    TBH it’s not even melodic minor really. It’s just an augmented major 7. Wynton Kelly plays that sound on Freddie Freeloader for instance if iirc.

    If it be melodic minor where are the other three notes be at? How is it characteristic of the melodic minor mode? It could be harmonic minor, for instance or just minor. Or m6-dim. Or any number of 8 or 9 note scale I could construct. Or just 4 notes, which is what it is.

    What specific theoretical understanding is gained from invoking a whole scale to explain what is a minor voicing that can be related to a number of chords using the usual substitution relations?

    The relation of minor to the other chords is fairly obvious stuff.

    So you can interpret this as melodic minor harmony if you want. I’d be more interested in what Herbie himself says about it, but I daresay a lot of this stuff is like ABC for him....

    This will no doubt seem incredibly pendantic because it obviously is but I mention it to just assert the extent to which our educational and theoretical background filter the way we see and hear things. Like the Ravel above...

    Theoretically it seems more likely Herbie was thinking Lydian Chromatic Concept, which is similar in some ways to chord scale theory, sure, but not exactly the same thing...

    To me I just think minor related to dominant, relative major. These sounds - the natural 7 or 13 say, have a specific sound within that framework, but people who get too interested in the melodic minor specifically neglect to realise that you can in fact chop and change and minor lines are rarely one or the other in entirety. Herbie from what I know of him seems a case in point....

    Wes, Strayhorn etc the same.

    So in my own teaching practice I usually slot melodic minor in as a sub case of standard relative to dominant, minor and major chords. So by this point none of this is a tremendously big deal. You can stay in or go out to diminished and whole tone via melodic minor...
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-25-2020 at 08:37 AM.

  8. #257

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    Some could be confusing LCC and melodic Minor yes they share elements, embedded within Melodic minor are substantial elements of Diminished and Whole tone scales


    In Classical theory minor scales- Natural, HM, MM are related to and derived from a Major scale


    eg C Major relative is Aminor, then we get to Jazz where Melodic minor has a seventh and raised sixth both up and down. So A Melodic minor has a signature of two sharps F#, G# what major key??? C Maj.............. Nope.


    (can be tricky initially) Perhaps some not realising there are 4 note Diatonic seventh chords in Melodic Minor and Functional seventh chords without listing all

    ex:1 C melodic minor C D Eb F G A B the 2nd degree

    Diatonic Dmin7 D F A C
    Functional Dm7b9 13 D Eb A B


    one could think hearing or seeing D Eb A B there is no b3 F or b7 C its because the defining notes and extensions are contained in that chord. The term seventh is not strictly accurate as the chord may not have a 7th as above.

    ex:2
    Diatonic Bm7b5
    Functional B7b9#9b13 B C D A


    This does not occur in Major and Minor harmony. Take C melodic minor between the scale degrees 3 and 7 there are consecutive whole steps almost a whole tone scale....does that sound like minor to you? ah ha........ Augmented Ja, Lydian augmented --- Paul McCartney said Yesterday

    Interchangeable indeed............................. juggle the Bass notes around see where you go.
    Last edited by marvinvv; 05-25-2020 at 12:46 PM.

  9. #258

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    I know the theory, what I’m interested in is what people actually play. People are always bringing up theory. Theory is for example papers. Praxis is in the analysis of real music, working out what’s going on for yourself.

    There’s not very many examples I’ve transcribed of pure melodic minor in the melodic lines of pre jazz college era musicians. Most musicians of the era seem to treat it as interchangeable with the dorian mode. Because they are playing melodic lines, not scale patterns.

    Take Wes soloing on Nica’s Dream for instance. A lot of modern players would worry about the maj7s in the chords. Because that’s what they’ve been taught is important for some reason.

    Another good example would be the way Herbie solos on the A7#11 Bbm11 vamp in Speak no Evil.

    All of these sounds can be chopped and changed according to what sound the player wants. Learning on the 7 sounds TASTY which is why people liked it... Maybe Strayhorn started that? Hence the development of the concept we call ‘melodic minor harmony’

    As far as the whole tones go - Wes actually plays the whole tone scale on a minor chord in his 4 on 6 solo. Presumably relating ii and V.

    Anyway, there’s four basic relationships a player needs to understand here
    - ii V
    - tritone sub (or Dom resolve down half step might be simpler)
    - relative major
    - minor to m7b5

    If you want to involve diminished that can be no5.

    All the melodic minor harmony in common use can be learned that way. Plus diminished and whole tone if you want. And, diatonic as well, of course.
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-25-2020 at 03:03 PM.

  10. #259

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    So, going further into it...

    Now we might see melodic minor harmony in Chelsea Bridge - the actual line is - again - a mixed scale Bb dorian/melodic minor with what we might see as a long appoggiatura on the 7th of the scale. Later in the shout we have the F triad emphasised against the Eb7#11 chord.

    So any musician us going to hear that and think - melodic minor.

    OTOH according to Peter Ind, Tristano was teaching melodic minor as far back as the 40s. And of course, Tristano's heroes like Charlie Christian and often leant on the major 6 on a minor chord. Charlie Christian called this a 'worry note.' So there was an understanding that any student of the music of the time would recognise - that the minor was a thing with a 6 in it, and the 7 could be either flat or natural depending on the melody, but the 6th was the main leaning note. (Players of this era often used the dorian mode, as later players did.)

    We can also put notes of the harmonic minor in there, and weave in and out of the basic tonality. That's obviously what Barry Harris teaches to this day.

    So - my contention would be the idea of 'melodic minor' was only necessitated by the shift in the sound of the minor chord around the time of Kind of Blue - 'Miles changed the sound of the minor chord' as Peter Bernstein has put it.

    So, there is a necessity in education to specify 'the one with a major 6 and 7 in it' as opposed to say the m7 sound. This wasn't really necessary in perhaps the same way in the 1940s and 50s because no one really treated the b7 as a consonant note (In the example below from the 30s, but the Gb against the Abm chord is treated as a leaning dissonance. All rhythm guitar players would play Abm6 here).

    This is especially important because modern jazz theory books usually start with the four basic seventh chords, and when you do that, you have to get specific about what sort of seventh is in the related scales right away.

    So - melodic minor harmony. Before it was simply 'minor.' It's not really, unless anything post war is modern.

    This is my hunch - So, why do I think this is a problem? It's a subtle distinction.

    Well I think people end up sweating the individual harmony of each note more than the context because they are thinking about every note being part of one scale. In reality, if I play for instance a D minor key bop line, that will 100% definitely sound great on G7, Bm7b5 and Db7alt. Bebop - hell, swing era musicians to some extent - absolutely understood this. But their lines do not simply use the notes of melodic minor, because they are melodic lines.

    (Also, notice how I said all of this without using any convoluted Greek/Latin mashup terminology.)

    IMO thinking about melodic minor gets rid of some of that flexibility and creative vagueness and putting cool melodies and voicings into exciting contexts in tunes, and we get locked into thinking about right notes and wrong notes instead. It's a subtle distinction, but I think the way we frame ideas is really important. The latter thinking is like a mind virus that leaks out of the terminology.

    And 'melodic minor' stuff comes in later in the process as something 'exotic' and 'modern.' Separate and special form the general run of things.

    Stuff like 'don't play the 13 on the iim7 chord' is not wrong exactly - just backwards sort of framing. Too much harmonic specificity too early. No wonder I've met a bunch of jazz school graduates who can't really deal with rhythm changes. It's impossible to play it that way.

    It's only recently I discovered how generalised about the harmony good changes player are, and how they skilfully allow the surface complexity in their lines to create harmonic movement while keeping the basic thinking process very simple.

    There's a second problem which is that people seem confused about whether the function of modern jazz theory is describe and summarise what previous musicians did or offer options for musicians to get fresh sounds.
    Attached Images Attached Images One way of thinking about Non Functional Harmony-screenshot-2020-05-25-19-38-27-jpg 
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-25-2020 at 03:21 PM.

  11. #260

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    And Chuck Wayne (I know, b/c I studied w/him many lifetimes ago) would not even recognize mode names or modal anything. He called scales by their chord functions---i.e.: G7th scale, not mixolydian. He felt that diatonic/chromatic harmony replaced and made irrelevant modes, and let's not even talk about modal jazz. (Barry Harris is almost identical in that thinking).

    And they both have lots of followers. There's a 'School of Chuck Wayne' someone created. Maybe his student Agnostino?

    I kind of chuckle at all 'dueling theorists', and reiterate: voice-lead from one note or chord to the next. The End.

    What to call it? I can only quote the venerable person with the 'theory' of sticking a harmonica in his mouth and making it sing: Sonny Boy Williamson (II---Rice Miller): ('Little Village, motherf&&r, Little Village!) Call it yo' mama if you want!!'...

  12. #261

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    TBH it’s not even melodic minor really. It’s just an augmented major 7. Wynton Kelly plays that sound on Freddie Freeloader for instance if iirc.

    If it be melodic minor where are the other three notes be at? How is it characteristic of the melodic minor mode? It could be harmonic minor, for instance or just minor. Or m6-dim. Or any number of 8 or 9 note scale I could construct. Or just 4 notes, which is what it is.

    What specific theoretical understanding is gained from invoking a whole scale to explain what is a minor voicing that can be related to a number of chords using the usual substitution relations?

    Theoretically it seems more likely Herbie was thinking Lydian Chromatic Concept, which is similar in some ways to chord scale theory, sure, but not exactly the same thing...

    ..
    To be honest the proof is in Herbie's right-hand lines where he is obviously playing in the melodic minor pool of notes over those characteristic left hand melodic minor rootless voicings. Herbie favors the dark mysterious beautiful sound of melodic minor. Not so much the old middle eastern sounding Harmonic Minor with it's awkward augmented 2nd (the 7th was raised in theory to accommodate the harmony of the Dominant chord not because the augmented 2nd sounds so great melodically). Why do you think they called it the melodic minor? Could it be that it's more "melodic"?
    Another benefit for pianists who use the gimmick of melodic minor, it is a great convenience, is that the fingerings are the same as the major scales which are deeply ingrained in virtuoso pianist's technique. Harmonic minor fingering on the piano is a hassle. Another huge benefit with melodic minor is that harmonically, everything is interchangeable in melodic minor, the voicings the roots the melodies, everything. That is a tremendous advantage for creativity on the fly in modern jazz piano. Not so in the other minors. The 7 modes of melodic minor yield the most common favorite chord qualities fo players such as Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea, Freddy Hubbard, Joe Henderson, and Wayne Shorter.
    The majority of Hancock's lines display him sculpting within the pools of the melodic minor, major scale, diminished scale, whole-tone scale, and blues scales. His lines do not reveal much devotion to the complicated Lydian Chromatic theories.
    Last edited by rintincop; 05-25-2020 at 10:54 PM.

  13. #262

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    John Stowell is the guitarist that comes to mind that is into practicing the technique of imposing a melodic minor harmony/scale on every chord of a tune, in practice, and not necessarily on gigs. He will take a tune like Take The A Train and overlay a melodic minor mode for every single chord in the piece! Mark Levine, Art Lande, and many others practice this reharm technique. Traditional players dislike this, they have said it destroys harmony. I tend to agree.

    A Train (all modes of various melodic minors):
    ||: Cmaj7+5 | Cmaj7+5 | D7+11 | D7+11 |
    | D-maj7 G7sus b9 | Ebmaj7+5 | G7 sus b9 :||
    Last edited by rintincop; 05-25-2020 at 10:54 PM.

  14. #263

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    OT: It's a similar freedom of reharm or compostion that I tried to explain in my previous post about take a chromatic bass line descending and put it under any standard melody and reharmonize it on the fly with cool voicings. Then do it with ascending chromatic bass... then in whole step bass motion, then minor third bass motion, then major third bass motion, then in perfect 4ths, whatever symetrical patterns you can devise, BUT the goal is to do it freely mixed and more by ear (like Wayne). That's a big part of Wayne's approach even if you don't see it or believe it. It's freedom.
    Last edited by rintincop; 05-25-2020 at 10:54 PM.

  15. #264

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    Melodic minor is traditional musical norms. We’ve had this for 60+ years has been an educational paradigm for at least 40...

    why do people go on about it as if it’s something new?

  16. #265

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    Also what works on a piano doesn’t necessarily work on the guitar.

  17. #266

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    You are like some sort of music theory police lawyer, but you didn't refute any of my points . John Stowell seems to think it works on guitar. Herbie and Wayne are not guitar players. I personally am not a fan of the melodic minor modes method or Wayne's tunes in general, but I think I understand his compositional process. I do like Wayne's soloing, especially on Native Dancer and his early Blue Note albums. I like Herbie's compositions better.

  18. #267

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    im not here to refute a thing.

    I am pointing out what I feel are problems with framing things a certain way - that’s to do with people feeling limited to just playing a chord scale, when actually you can play lines and melodies much more freely, and you can get all those sounds.

    I’m also questioning whether melodic minor harmony was some evolutionary leap or a fairly steady development of earlier practices (obviously, it is right?) and that actually the novel thing in jazz was the use of the m7 on minor chords in the 60s. Barry Harris and Peter Bernstein appear to agree with me here, among others, so I’m comfortable with this as a working theory.

    I’m not going to argue with you cos you’ll just spam more theory I already know and use.

    Anyway, i don’t have a thing against melodic minor, I think it sounds good. I think CST can also make you a bit generalised in the harmony. This is something that goes with chord symbols and real book. It’s problematic... you just have to use your ears.

    Not ever minor chord has a seventh, and so on. Good musicians know this of course... But the edu system is always guilty of emphasising some things over others.

    In terms of Wayne- What I’m interested in is listening carefully to musicians do on these tunes and form my own conclusions. Some of which I put up here and then people post up a fairly conventional jazz theory response; the second hand interpretation that I already know (I read Levines books 20 years ago.) it’s less interesting.

    People I think like to present jazz as a smooth historical narrative, and if you select examples and musicians carefully you can make this case. they then seem to defend this narrative to the hilt. But at any point in history you are going to see things are more complex. What you say above is pretty much what I’ve been saying, but you are clinging to certain theory which as a teacher I would find convenient to ignore or reframe.

    I came to this music expecting to hear the stuff you are talking about, for me to slot melodic minors neatly into their historical context and track down the development of the chord scale approach. It is there... to some extent. But actually there’s more going on than that, and that’s exciting to me.

    After all there’s a ton of pianists who sound like a bargain basement Herbie Hancock (not just fault) and guitarists which adapt his basic approach; but I would say fewer players who approach improv like Wayne.

  19. #268

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    Another way of putting it is this. Things have moved on. We live an information rich environment. What you say above about melodic minor harmony is very common knowledge, by which I mean serious jazz students I have even at the pre-undergraduate level know this stuff already. They don't even need to read Levine's book to get a good understanding of melodic modes etc, it's all out there on the web.

    There's nothing modern or unusual about it.

    Also, there are so many confusions in thought over the way this material is presented. The terminology does a fantastic job of making it sound much more complicated than it actually is. On top of this, there is a lack of clarity in what the various branches of jazz theory are intended to do.

    A lot of this was in originally reaction to the learning environments of the generation who developed this way of teaching, which is to say experiential, leading onto the student seeking ideas using new sounds - when they got bored of playing standards, for instance.

    This is not the case with present students. They have a mass of theoretical information but no road map on how to apply it. In general what I end up doing is telling students what to work on and how. They often don't know how to construct jazz vocabulary for instance. Herbie was obviously able to do this before he started playing Wayne's music, for instance.

    (Why do you think Barry Harris has suddenly got so popular with young people? He addresses these questions in his teaching.)

    I feel strongly the future of jazz education is obviously not in definitive closed answers and theoretical information - it's in encouraging, creativity, diversity of thought and yes the dreaded praxis. The situated learning environment of past eras of jazz was very good at doing this. It's entirely possible to do it an educational environment, if we are smart educators.

  20. #269

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    My post above re- melodic minor was only to show how some chords dont appear Diatonic but are functional,
    ie even without 3rd 7th, so if not familiar can see and hear where it is from and its FUNCTION




    The interchangeable things does not really happen in say Major whereby Em7 & Bm7b5 sound completely different.


    a point rintincop made --- mentioned how Hancock moves that particular melodic minor voicing almost as freely in and out as McCoy Tyner moves his 4th voicing in and out of key.




    I’m also questioning whether melodic minor harmony was some evolutionary leap or a fairly steady development of earlier practices. Yeah i think it was always there, but got expanded, a bit like whole tone changed from say Thelonius use, to say Coltrane who used it more as Augmented then Michael breker did his thing with Augmented.
    Shorter seems to use a lot of Augmented so there is a lot of overlap. i guess i am saying where it starts or started and ended is not clear. Like the old altered scale bussiness.......




    I dont get the impression people think Melodic Minor is new, but maybe not knowing Melodic Minor
    is Key centred not cadence based, important, because there is no conventional resolution,(or for want of a word) unless one makes it, by playing or writing in, I think Holdsworth suffers from this ( alto some insanely beautiful music) but for non musician ears not much cadence going on, People are used to this either in Church Amen or simple Pop Rock songs have some cadence. ie they kind of know hear where it is going


    The orig thread post ( from what i understand) was to show how things that on the surface may appear NON function are functional, albeit disguised camouflaged, again the chords i mentioned in EX1 & 2 of earlier post,
    attempt to shoe this this.




    There are no real entire songs in Melodic Minor, this does not really happen. Its real easy to get bogged down in all this. Sometimes good to not listen Wayne Herbie and the gang, but hearing the older players . Getz, Pass purely because not all the players play the more modern or modal, just as Barry Harris does not like any of that.




    chord pluralities is an interesting thing, without going into Melodic or NON Function or what ever......another subject i guess.

  21. #270

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    I think it’s important to get beyond the names. The names are ... politicised. For instance in a workshop with Barry he was discussing what to play on the Dbmaj7 in the first A of All the Things. He said - play the major scale with a raised 4th.

    We were all daring each other to say something. No one had the stupidity haha.

    So yeah.

    If I play a minor 3 phrase (C E G# B for instance, lol) on the important minor of D7.... Ok, you get the picture.

    I’ve heard Barry talk about melodic minor once in his workshops, so even though he tends to use m6-dim for minor applications it’s clearly not totally off his radar. Everything that can be done with the melodic minor can of course also be done with the m6-dim. all the sounds exist within it.

    You get some bonus sounds into the deal like v13b9 and V7#9#11 which might normally be taught as diminished scale sounds.

    Anyhoo. Altered dominant sounds are ... sensitive. Like you just wouldn’t play a b5 on some of them in some tunes - the 7#9b13 sound is a profoundly different animal from 7b5 for instance.

    Jazz education seems to have forgotten about Dominant II as Warne Marsh called it, but it gets used even on such relatively modern records as Angel Song, Bill Frisell isn’t going to play that b5 sound where it doesn’t belong. He just isn’t because he hears detail and specific sounds and not some generalised chord scale thing.

    A one size fits all approach isn’t in anyone’s interest.

    TBH I think of the relative Mel min major (Lydian augmented) as being the real post functional sound. Before this point majors acted more as destination points.

    so music moves more from centring around the moving chords such as dominants (they can all be related to dominants) to majors and minors of varying complexity. The dominant becomes less and less important.

  22. #271

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    If I was to put a line in the sand between Herbie and what had come before I would say earlier pianists by and large played what they wanted over simple left hand voicings.

    Herbie under the influence maybe of Bill Evans and Ahmad Jamal as well as his classical studies starts to think more of the two hands being integrated.

    That shifts the whole paradigm ... no longer is it about the chips falling where they may between the two hands (including clashes and false relations between the hands) but a more vertically integrated approach... chord scales including melodic minor modes are useful for that.

    So Barry might play Ebm7 arpeggio line in the right hand over an A7 chord in the left hand but he isn’t thinking of that as a voicing per se. He’s think of it as a line on a turnaround.

    Post Herbie everything’s a chord.

    That’s the difference. And this is when players become tempted to micromanage their pitch choices on chords in terms of vertical harmony (which Herbie for instance doesn’t do) The way analysis is taught at schools encourages this.

    (One reason why dominant II, for example - which Warne Marsh defines as the melodic minor on the b7th of the dominant chord - isn’t found much in jazz edu literature, could be that it inconveniently has a b3 and a 4 and no 3, so can’t be used very easily to generate voicings despite its heavy use in jazz lines. Even the altered scale - which Warne termed Dominant III - is really shoehorned into the system; it doesn’t quite work.)

    I feel something is lost here, and a lot of jazz harmony can end up sounding a bit samey and lacking in tension and grit and lines can sound more like rolled chords or exercises than melodies in their own right (not true of Herbie for instance but of many lesser modern players.)

    They are alternative approaches that are neither of these two things. And of course you can teach CST in a more relaxed and intelligent way.

    Actually a lot of diversity seems to my ears to have existed at the change of paradigms. Coltrane is not playing chord scales the way we would today, or McCoy. Or for that matter, Wayne (at least not all the time.) You know everyone has Wynton Kelly down as mr sunshine swing, but he has some pretty complex chordal sounds sometimes. The history is messy and interesting.
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-26-2020 at 08:21 AM.

  23. #272

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    Wayne swimming with dolphins, you can hear that Miles D plugged nickel vibe coming thro shorter except this band doesnt go there, not many did until while after plugged nickel this would have been approx next year after p nickel, pianists starts heading in Herbie vibe at approx 6 min . But hey Tony Williams and Ron on Bass hard act to follow





    im not sure this is in the right category

  24. #273

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    Got permission! Here's Glenn Mills's Broad Daylight, chart and sound file:
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Attached Files Attached Files

  25. #274

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    Thanks Joel!

  26. #275

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    chris, I just "spam (irrelevant or inappropriate) theory" ? To be honest I haven't learned a thing from your verbose pontifications about Wayne Shorter. I think I agree with your description of yourself earlier in this thread: you are a snob.

  27. #276

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    Sorry to be grumpy and rude about your contributions rintin. Just because I happen to know that stuff already is no excuse for being brusque and dismissive.

    It’s a shame you don’t feel I was saying anything of value, I think the two hands separate/two hands together thing is actually quite an intriguing thing to bear in mind in the development of jazz harmony, and I find it interesting people don't talk about it more often; but people don’t seem to be interested. You’d be in a much better position to support/debunk it than most of us, as an actual jazz pianist.
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-28-2020 at 05:43 AM.

  28. #277

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf View Post
    Got permission! Here's Glenn Mills's Broad Daylight, chart and sound file:
    Anyone listened or scanned the score?

    Thoughts?

  29. #278

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf View Post
    Anyone listened or scanned the score?

    Thoughts?
    i really enjoyed listening to it, but haven’t really got into the score yet

  30. #279

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    My favorite Wayne soprano sax track ever, "Ponta de Arieia". He didn't write the theme, but he owns the bridge and solo in the middle. It's remastered, and if you haven't heard it in a while treat yourself to a listen.


  31. #280

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    I've been delving heavily into 20th Century European composition---in particular Debussy; Bartok; Stravinsky---and lately Schoenberg.

    It only further brings home a thought I'd been nurturing all along: if you think note-to-note you could be liberated from the tyranny of traditional Western chordal thinking (then there are other systems never broached in Western academia: African hemiola, and other 'World Music' approaches---another topic for another day).

    These people, especially Schoenberg, who organized the thinking in theory books and created a 'school' were thinking in pitch sets,not chords in the way we normally think of them. Certain tradition scales, like whole-tone, crop up in Schoenberg's Opus 11, as do what sounds awfully like post-bop jazz chords. The 'chords' may be accidental, in the sense that they are being approached by those interval sets, and may be thought of as temporary moorings.

    I also think you can apply this thinking to older harmony. Just think note to note; and of chordal movement as 3 or more scales moving simultaneously. If they don't 'move' in the expected ways, note to note, chord to chord still covers it---and drives us less crazy.

    I created a page here---Score Analysis Thread---that explores this in more detail. Latest entry: Schoenberg's Opus 11---recording w/score followed by a cool analysis.

    It's not too far a leap of faith to glean how modern jazz harmony borrowed liberally from these folks. It's true fusion, when you think of those harmonic implications coupled with jazz rhythm and feeling...

  32. #281

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    And this is a decent overview of African harmony---which touches on chords not resolving in the traditional (Western) way...

    Traditional sub-Saharan African harmony - Wikipedia

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    Yea... I went through this process back in the 70's and 80's... was composing and arranging as much as I could, trying to make living. I don't think it's a stretch at all....I mean expanding leads to basically any possibility one hears.
    Just expanding Diatonic and Functional organization open almost all jazz doors.

  34. #283

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf View Post
    And this is a decent overview of African harmony---which touches on chords not resolving in the traditional (Western) way...

    Traditional sub-Saharan African harmony - Wikipedia
    Aha - interesting so

    "The subdominant (plagal) cadence is (resulting from the frequent tendency toward parallelism in African music) the favored cadence and not the perfect cadence, which is the norm in classical western music...Cadential patterns are frequent in African music and invariably result as a consequence of melodic movement either by thirds, fourths, or fifths – that is as a consequence of what may be referred to as shadow harmony ... A cadential descending minor third is frequently noted between the minor third step and the tonic (Reiser, 1982:122) in African music."[9] These cadential movements are made using the melody and the scale as the guiding factor.

    Relates to this thing I noticed about jazz musicians often avoiding the leading tone when playing V7-I. I call them cool dominants. The go from Lester Young though to McCoy Tyner and beyond.

    Of course V7sus4 is the classic 'churchy' example... Apparently gospel harmonisations use a parallel harmonisation with a hexatonic scale

    1 2 3 4 5 6 1

    'Cooled tonality' - and of course, jazz might take place over a tonal backdrop, but it itself is not necessarily tonal, but modal. As Conrad Cork puts it, jazz has always been modal.

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    I think they were saying----not implying---that Africa was there 1st. With modality and lots of other things.

    Hear, hear---'bout time.

    I misspoke about the hemiola---some of this is new to me: it has to do with a 3/2 or 2/3 polyrhythm---undoubtedly where clave was born. Apologies. One of the articles did tie it in with sub-Saharan harmony and singing. I'll look into it more and report back...

  36. #285

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    Well I'm reading Gerhard Kubik's 'A case in point: Bebop: the African matrix in Jazz harmonic practices' cited in the Wiki article. Fascinating stuff.

    Incidentally, I'm getting the feeling this is the exact conceptual split which makes jazz harmony hard for classical musicians to understand. There was a Nicholas Payton thing I must did out - where he said that he was surprised that classical musicians couldn't play the chords he was writing - they couldn't hear them in some way...

  37. #286

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf View Post
    I think they were saying----not implying---that Africa was there 1st. With modality and lots of other things.

    Hear, hear---'bout time.

    I misspoke about the hemiola---some of this is new to me: it has to do with a 3/2 or 2/3 polyrhythm---undoubtedly where clave was born. Apologies. One of the articles did tie it in with sub-Saharan harmony and singing. I'll look into it more and report back...
    Been reading Simha Arom's African Polyphony and Polyrhythm, and the author states its a mistake to think about meter in traditional African music - there is none, nor is there syncopation, as syncopation requires a meter with strong and weak beats. There are patterns of accents in a repeating period, but trying to add metrical subdivisions of this period are a European construct without any useful purpose.

  38. #287

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    Also in the book, which focuses exclusively on the Central African Republic, but extrapolates to other W African cultures, he noted that vocal harmonies outside of Pygmy groups, where the only real vocal polyphony is found, the vertical harmony tends, depending on the group to be exclusively either thirds, fourths or fifths, much like medieval organum. So one group might exclusively harmonize with thirds while another in fourths, etc. He also noted the use of the whole tone scale, but within Pygmy groups so it likely did not travel to the Americas

  39. #288

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    I didn't know this story, I haven't read Berliner from cover to over, but that book is just amazing.

    "Individual jazz musicians also differ. For Miles Davis, the harmonic background glow was most important, the e/eb distinction paramount. He is reported to have argued with Charlie Parker on one occasion con- cerning whether it was really possible that players could do "anything" with chords, as Parker maintained. Davis told him that d could not beplayed in the fifth bar of a B-flat blues. Parker replied that he could do it. One night later, Davis heard Lester Young doing exactly that, although he seemed to "bend" the note. Parker gave Davis a triumphant glance (see Berliner 1994, 252). In fact, Charlie Parker, for example, in "Good Dues Blues" in the key of D, begins a phrase in measure six with ft (Parker 1946)."

    In fact Miles Davis's Solo on Now's the Time is full of such false relations. He was obviously paying attention?

  40. #289

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    There was a Nicholas Payton thing I must did out - where he said that he was surprised that classical musicians couldn't play the chords he was writing - they couldn't hear them in some way...
    I think it's more that they don't hear them in the same way. Whole other orientation for the identical material! A hair-breadth away----and a world away...

  41. #290

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV View Post
    Been reading Simha Arom's African Polyphony and Polyrhythm, and the author states its a mistake to think about meter in traditional African music - there is none, nor is there syncopation, as syncopation requires a meter with strong and weak beats. There are patterns of accents in a repeating period, but trying to add metrical subdivisions of this period are a European construct without any useful purpose.
    Yeah---they probably started 'dividing' when the slaves were brought West---and 're-educated'...

  42. #291

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf View Post
    I think it's more that they don't hear them in the same way. Whole other orientation for the identical material! A hair-breadth away----and a world away...
    Yeah, so this is it.

    But that's the whole framing of things like the Jazz Theory Book, the idea of jazz harmony as vertical, the harmony evolving in a nice neat way like it did in classical music. Levine constantly uses that narrative, in common with many jazz educators, even when he has no good reason to - and even when he is demonstrably wrong... Probably totally unconscious, inherited from somewhere. It's a Eurocentric view, in a weird sort of way because I think that's what they are trying to escape. As I say unintentional.

    (Like 50s critics who gave Third Stream records better reviews than Blue Note, because that was their lens for understanding the progress of the music; that it should be allied to European modernism, not blues and swing)

    But culturally, do these positivist, ahistorical models of jazz have the end effect of writing the blackness, the African-ness out of jazz? I've certainly read a lot of papers that argue that... Ethan Iverson seems to suggest it started with Tristano.

    And it's sad because that culture has been suppressed for centuries. And us white idiots can't stop doing it in the academies and conservatoires. Sure, we mean well.

    I find the 'ring of truth' in Steve Coleman's ideas about the layered nature of bebop, or this guy Kubik the music is layered with harmonic and rhythmic possibilities. It's not built up from some imaginary root, with the chords and scales agreeing. How could anyone look at a transcription of Monk, Parker or anything and come away with that conclusion? Bill Evans, maybe, but even then...

    Jazz is a music of layers, always has been. Especially during the modal era.
    Last edited by christianm77; 06-22-2020 at 07:51 PM.

  43. #292

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post

    Jazz is a music of layers, always has been. Especially during the modal era.
    First glance I read that as "...a music of lawyers..."

  44. #293

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    But that's the whole framing of things like the Jazz Theory Book, the idea of jazz harmony as vertical, the harmony evolving in a nice neat way like it did in classical music. Levine constantly uses that narrative, in common with many jazz educators, even when he has no good reason to - and even when he is demonstrably wrong... Probably totally unconscious, inherited from somewhere. It's a Eurocentric view, in a weird sort of way because I think that's what they are trying to escape. As I say unintentional...

    But culturally, do these positivist, ahistorical models of jazz have the end effect of writing the blackness, the African-ness out of jazz? I've certainly read a lot of papers that argue that... Ethan Iverson seems to suggest it started with Tristano...
    Mark Levine would bristle at that assessment, being very accomplished in (and at one time highly sought after for) many forms of Afro-Cuban/Salsa/'Latin Jazz' music. I didn't read that book---used to have the excellent Jazz Piano book, still recommend it.

    I'm sure whatever Levine's student indoctrination, he paid it little mind in his performance career---guy's straight out of black jazz and Latino forms*. He wrote a book in the language he knew would be grasped. It's called Lingua Franca---like it or not. My guess: he knew the game, and what would play to academia and its progeny and what wouldn't. Students having been steeped in Eurocentric learning are gonna think someone writing counter to that is weird. Jazz education is a business, and nobody will buy a book by one a deemed pariah. Hell, they may get kicked out of school, excommunicated from the herd (to mix metaphors). And I don't profess to know, and won't defend or diss what I haven't read.

    *If you want to hear where Mark Levine is really coming from, I'd start with the excellent Up Til Now (Catalyst, 1976---featuring also some great earlier Tom Harrell).

    Tristano: oi vey! A brilliant man with an ego and Christ complex even bigger than that copious noggin. It would be very unfair---and just not reality---to suggest he in any way willed the blackness out of jazz. He knew who the innovators were, sang their praises, brutal critic though he was toward almost everyone else playing, and made his students sing their solos.

    Where he went south in a big way was that his use of rhythmic displacement---though brilliant and worthy of study---was Western, not African-derived. I guess that was his sin by indoctrination. He displaced things metrically, but it had nothing to do with polyrhythm or clave, b/c he didn't really know from that. Not his fault, but that of his teachers.

    The dominant culture---and now I'm purposely going global---always feels they must win, and containing 'minority' (take that both ways) views is one of the insidious methods that insinuates itself into every aspect of society. Why would the classroom be different when it's the perfect bully pulpit for advancing ossified; business-savvy; self-perpetuating; white views (agendas?---yeah, I'll go with that)?

    How do you unchain yourself---you creative musician of any color truly in search of knowledge and informed self-expression? You take the 'way of the autodidact'---you read everything, from every point of view. You ask questions, questions, questions. And all of that won't mean much if you don't take that leap of faith to hang with and get your ass kicked by true practitioners---playing the music, living the music and the life. If they spot talent and sincerity there's nothing they won't do to help and encourage you. (That was what I lived, what I was so lucky to have been given).

    There are no conclusions---only evolutions. That's on each of us...
    Last edited by joelf; 06-22-2020 at 11:35 PM.

  45. #294

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    thanks for your thoughts. The Theory Book has a lot of overlap with the Piano Book, there's some similar memes and tropes in it which I find come up a lot in education, stuff about the 4th and so on.

    Of course Levine would bristle. (I thought you might know him.) Though, just because I’m extremely critical of what he has written doesn’t mean I’m attacking him personally (I don’t know him). I think he means well, and everyone knows he’s a great musician.

    However, some things are actually out of our hands. There’s something about the very act of writing jazz books etc which causes us to frame our knowledge in a certain way. Levine’s books are really interesting from this perspective, because he seems aware of it to some extent. (I think that’s probably why Howard Rees felt it important to have the video in his Barry Harris series (also makes them too expensive for those not already interested) to try and get closer to that community feel.)

    What you say about ‘game playing’ and ‘lingua franca’ seems about right. The context was different. Back when he was teaching and writing these books, this knowledge was less widely known... he was probably one of the few guys to be able to explain what was going on in the post bop era. For trailblazing music educators its reasonable to assume they couldn't predict the effects of what they were coming up with. Again, I don't blame them.

    But that doesn't mean there aren't problems with where we find ourselves.

    One thing I realise revisiting them is that jazz educators teach pretty much chapter and verse out of the two books. For instance, Levine's approach to voicing left hand chords 3-9 (although I'm sure he didn't invent that), the scale choices, analysing progressions as modulating II-V's, I see that out in the wild all the time. It's become it's own thing. Theory often comes before the music for many students.

    That's why Barry Harris is so popular with young players, almost to cultish levels - they understand he has something to offer that their teachers aren't giving them and they couldn't get many other places.

    OTOH Ethan Iverson seems to be on a mission to question these sorts of jazz education memes. I think he goes a bit far sometimes, like that 'if your favourite jazz drummer is Buddy Rich you are a racist' screed (didn't Charlie Parker love Buddy's playing?).... But he's often very interesting and insightful.

    I think that's a generational thing. For my generation and younger, we have a different relationship to theory. It goes in cycles.

    Again, I think these boomer generation theorists and teachers are 100% aware that there are problems with all this, because they've seen it all change on their watch, mostly it must be said to forces outside of their control (the decline in live music, the expansion of the educational sector and so on). There's a good Aebersold quote that I'll dig out.

    Anyway I 100% agree about the rhythm thing with Tristano - that’s what I had in mind. The rhythm is more like Bartok than Bird in that sense, additive rather than layered.

    In terms of how we 'unchain ourselves.' That's a question worth asking maybe, even if we can't actually answer it. I think it's helpful to be aware. In the end we educators have to write books, syllabuses and so on. At least being sophisticated enough to understand that there are always problems with how we present things, and to try to be clear about it. Again, I think Mark Levine was actually trying to do this to some extent. It didn't work, but it's there...

    Anyway, a William Blake quote that I feel is relevant

    "To Generalize is to be an Idiot; To Particularize is the Alone Distinction of Merit"
    I need to remind myself of this... Jazz teachers, including Levine, are at our best when are particular. Theory itself is an act of generalisation, so is in some sense doomed to idiocy. It's a necessary evil sometimes, but it's still an evil.
    Last edited by christianm77; 06-23-2020 at 05:01 AM.

  46. #295

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln View Post
    First glance I read that as "...a music of lawyers..."
    I love it! That's what its become haha

    'But isn't the F# a bad note against the G7? It says here in the Chord Scale Theory book.'
    'Well actually, we have legal precedent from 1958 when Wes Montgomery played that note in this solo here.' (that's me lol)

    Oh god....

  47. #296

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    The preferred---the best way to really see what's up with anything: if possible, go to the source! Otherwise, you're twice or thrice removed from real empirical knowledge, and---well-meaning and sincere though you be---you'll still be talking out of your bunghole. By comparison.

    I listen, and have for years, to both sides of the Israeli-Arab conflict. I let the opinions and vitriol wash over me---then wash it off b/c I've never been there---haven't lived among and spoken to Israelis; Palestinians; Syrians; etc. (Because I'm Jewish there are Israeli-sponsored programs (the 'return', in English) that would allow me to live there free for 6 months. If I were at liberty, and truly interested, I'd take up the offer. But I'm not, so I read the papers like anyone else, but have no opinion of any value and say nothing if asked.

    Closer to home, if I want to learn a tune, I try to get as close to a composer's version as I can. Short of that, I'll listen not to Sarah or Ella---who will 'jazz it up', but Doris Day or Jo Stafford, who won't, and with an arrangement that doesn't deviate much from the composer's intent. Then, informed, I have license to do what I will with the song.

    I would love to, one day, take sabbaticals to Africa; Brasil; Cuba; the Mideast; Orient---live among the people and listen. When I'd learned enough I'd ask to sit in. Maybe working vacations could facilitate these trips (like Tim Armocrost took to India for the same reasons).

    If it never happens, I'll do my best to learn from here and get as close as can be. But I only trust the printed page so much, respect myself (and those musics) too much to be another student-sounding copycat. And if I never do get to go to the source I'd be only another well-meaning, but clueless--------------theorist...

  48. #297

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf View Post
    The preferred---the best way to really see what's up with anything: if possible, go to the source! Otherwise, you're twice or thrice removed from real empirical knowledge, and---well-meaning and sincere though you be---you'll still be talking out of your bunghole. By comparison.
    Indeed.

    I listen, and have for years, to both sides of the Israeli-Arab conflict. I let the opinions and vitriol wash over me---then wash it off b/c I've never been there---haven't lived among and spoken to Israelis; Palestinians; Syrians; etc. (Because I'm Jewish there are Israeli-sponsored programs (the 'return', in English) that would allow me to live there free for 6 months. If I were at liberty, and truly interested, I'd take up the offer. But I'm not, so I read the papers like anyone else, but have no opinion of any value and say nothing if asked.
    Well perhaps that's a safer topic of discussion than Mark Levine haha. But yeah, I have a friend who lived in Jerusalem for 10 years. The experiential side of it is pretty important to her - she always says no-one can truly understand the complexity of it until they spend some time there. She should write a book - some hair raising experiences, a lot of absurdity, pitch black humour. She misses it like crazy.

    Closer to home, if I want to learn a tune, I try to get as close to a composer's version as I can. Short of that, I'll listen not to Sarah or Ella---who will 'jazz it up', but Doris Day or Jo Stafford, who won't, and with an arrangement that doesn't deviate much from the composer's intent. Then, informed, I have license to do what I will with the song.

    I would love to, one day, take sabbaticals to Africa; Brasil; Cuba; the Mideast; Orient---live among the people and listen. When I'd learned enough I'd ask to sit in. Maybe working vacations could facilitate these trips (like Tim Armocrost took to India for the same reasons).

    If it never happens, I'll do my best to learn from here and get as close as can be. But I only trust the printed page so much, respect myself (and those musics) too much to be another student-sounding copycat. And if I never do get to go to the source I'd be only another well-meaning, but clueless--------------theorist...
    I think there's a tendency to venerate the visual in education... I was reading an interesting paper yesterday about how the very language we use suggests the primacy of the eyes.

    So here's a thing that occurred to me - the very same process happened to classical music. Listen to early 20th century classical recording and you often hear something that's actually quite at variance with the score.

    In jazz, the same effect is happening. People become most preoccupied with what can be written down.

  49. #298

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    'F what's written down'----Charlie Parker

    'The written music's just a menu'----Miles Davis

    'A note's like water---you can do anything with it'---Ornette Coleman