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  1. #251

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    I think Baas is into something. Some things.

    Thinking he's a game changer, and listening intently for his next statements...

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #252

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    My completed rendition of Iris. Thanks for the recommendation rpjazzguitar.

    I found this very difficult. I chose to record it on acoustic archtop because I though that would be a more interesting way to do it, but the floating nature of the chords highlights every imperfection.


  4. #253

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    Correction, I heard sus b9 and assumed it was Db, but upon closer listening, I realized it's an Ab7sus b9 over Db bass (V of Db pedal point)

    : Hancock plays for the so called "Db- b6" :
    A Db Eb Ab over Db
    Last edited by rintincop; 05-22-2020 at 08:06 PM.

  5. #254

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    Why not phrygian dominant?

  6. #255

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    Hancock plays that so called "Db- b6" as a Db7sus b9 (2nd mode of B melodic minor). It's like Right hand plays Ab Db D Gb over Db bass note (basically changing the flavor of the previous Db7 +4). Levine covers that voicing in his odd Chpt 3 on "Sus and Phrygian" voicings
    That doesn't sound quite right to me. Listening to the first time Hancock plays that chord in 'Iris' (about 34 secs), it sounds more like Ab, A natural, Db (all over a Db bass). You could play something very similar to it on the guitar as: x 4 6 2 2 x. Can't hear a D in it, that would sound quite unpleasant and would clash with the melody.

    It's a typical Hancock sound, like a sort of Gb min (with a second i.e. Ab) over a Db bass. Similar to the bit near the end of Dolphin Dance where he plays Am7 over E bass (right after a Bm7 over E, it's a very similar sounding move).

    Another way to look at it is Amaj7 over Db (apparently Shorter's original lead sheet showed this chord as Amaj9).

  7. #256

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    Ooops, I listened again more closely, Hancock plays

    RH spelled from the bottom up: A Db Eb Ab over Db bass. It's almost Db- b6 but there is no Fb, so it doesn't sound like Db- b6.
    It sounds like V of Db7#11 (Ab7sus b9/Db)
    Last edited by rintincop; 05-22-2020 at 07:52 PM.

  8. #257

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    So, it's like Ab7sus b9 (2nd mode of Gb melodic minor) over a Db pedal point in the bass (so we get V7sus b9 of Db7#11 which = Ab-Maj7/Db)

    Parallel melodic minor modes, a whole step apart, all over Db pedal point, one of Herbie's favorite parallel pairs of melodic minor scales.

    ||: Db7#11 ( Ab melodic minor/Db) | Gb melodic minor /Db :|| makes for a typical Herbie style vamp on the intro and outro episodes on various tunes.

    Herbie will sometimes take it further with the parallel descending melodic minor tonalities over a pedal point.

    Here's an example of Herbie shifting down thru melodic minor keys over a static pedal point:

    Ab-Maj7/Db | Gb-Maj7/Db | E-Maj7/Db | D-Maj7/Db | B-Maj7/Db | Db7sus |

    Iris can all be derived from modes of major and modes of melodic minor. Just like Mark Levine would state and what he's good at analyzing.
    Last edited by rintincop; 05-22-2020 at 08:45 PM.

  9. #258

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    Ooops, I listened again more closely, Hancock plays

    RH spelled from the bottom up: A Db Eb Ab over Db bass. It's almost Db- b6 but there is no Fb, so it doesn't sound like Db- b6.
    It sounds like V of Db7#11 (Ab7sus b9/Db)
    i has trouble hearing that chord tbh. I ended up going with the chart because it sounded close. Its good to get another pair of ears on it, the best way to learn by listening. Hancock isn’t someone I’ve transcribed a lot of...

  10. #259

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    So, it's like Ab7sus b9 (2nd mode of Gb melodic minor) over a Db pedal point in the bass (so we get V7sus b9 of Db7#11 which = Ab-Maj7/Db)

    Parallel melodic minor modes, a whole step apart, all over Db pedal point, one of Herbie's favorite parallel pairs of melodic minor scales.

    ||: Db7#11 ( Ab melodic minor/Db) | Gb melodic minor /Db :|| makes for a typical Herbie style vamp on the intro and outro episodes on various tunes.

    Herbie will sometimes take it further with the parallel descending melodic minor tonalities over a pedal point.

    Here's an example of Herbie shifting down thru melodic minor keys over a static pedal point:

    Ab-Maj7/Db | Gb-Maj7/Db | E-Maj7/Db | D-Maj7/Db | B-Maj7/Db | Db7sus |

    Iris can all be derived from modes of major and modes of melodic minor. Just like Mark Levine would state and what he's good at analyzing.
    I wonder if that not just the way we hear it.

    Melodic minor modes are kind of obvious stuff, the magic is in getting things more specific.

    And often modes distort the sounds a little. Put a b5 here, add in a b7 there, but it might not be the sound. You might just hear it that way because it’s the framework you know.

    If you want to put a 6 on a 7sus4b9 do it. Maybe a b6? Maybe nothing?

    And the melody with the bass seems to be the backbone of the composition. I’d like to see Wayne’s chart to know how much Herbie was interpreting with his own musical language. I reckon McCoy would have played it a little different for instance. And i think most jazz manuals take Herbie’s approach as standard.

    In my version I chose to go more with diminished scale type voicings over the Bb7b9 into Db7#11. It’s not what Herbie plays there but it seemed that way the melody was constructed. McCoy might have used diminished there perhaps. Or Peter Bernstein perhaps.

  11. #260

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    Herbie and Wayne worked closely together harmonically. Herbie loves the sound of melodic minor harmony and so does Wayne. Herbie uses characteristic melodic minor voicings, again and again, that pop up all over his work and Wayne's work. He's not thinking so much about specific chord tones, he's thinking pools of notes (melodic minors, major scale, diminished scale and whole tone, and of course some blues) for harmonic "episodes" as he calls them. I'm pretty sure he influenced Wayne to a great degree being the chord player and Wayne being the melody man.

  12. #261

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    Wayne’s original changes were:

    / Fm9 / Emaj7 Gbmaj7 / Emaj7 Db7 / Cmaj9
    / Cmaj9 / Cmin9 / Dbmaj7 Cmin9 / Db7b5 Amaj9
    / G+9 C9b5 / /

    according to the book I mentioned before, this is from the deposited lead sheet at Library of Congress. (The tune started out as a 10-bar theme in 4:4).

  13. #262

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    Re "Db- b6" hard to hear Herbie played AMaj/C#


    Dbm b6 really a pianistic chord. there is a difference in min b6 and min#5 sometimes (rarely) the min#5 is indicated with b7)


    Dbminb6 has 5th Ab enharmonics blur a bit Ab/G# Maj7 for A


    In essence AMaj7 the AMaj9 is just decoration.

  14. #263

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    Certaiinly I think of that chord as an inversion.

    I think there are inversion people and people who think of every chord as built as a mode from the bass, so there are no inversions.

    So Barry Harris might say - play the scale from the 3rd of G7

    But Adam Rogers would say - the B locrian mode

    (Would Mark Levine say - C ionian scale from the 7th rintin, or use Locrian?)

    It's just a different way of describing the exact same thing and that makes learning the ropes seem much more complicated then it actually is until you realise this.

    I think jazz teaching has moved towards the latter 'there are no inversions, everything's a mode' framing...

  15. #264

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Wayne’s original changes were:

    / Fm9 / Emaj7 Gbmaj7 / Emaj7 Db7 / Cmaj9
    / Cmaj9 / Cmin9 / Dbmaj7 Cmin9 / Db7b5 Amaj9
    / G+9 C9b5 / /

    according to the book I mentioned before, this is from the deposited lead sheet at Library of Congress. (The tune started out as a 10-bar theme in 4:4).
    Wow...

    C maj 9! That got rewritten to C/Ab or Abmaj7#5...

    Also, no Bb7b9 chord instead we have Emaj7... Maybe because the same motif (#4-2-3-#4) was used on Db7, makes the construction of the tune a little less transparent. Also - minor third relation.

    The melody tells us this where the chords disguise it...

    But also - disguised tonality - Db7 to C rather obvious....

    Melody suggests Db7#11 not Db7b5... shows how non standard chord symbols were back then.

  16. #265

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    Herbie and Wayne worked closely together harmonically. Herbie loves the sound of melodic minor harmony and so does Wayne. Herbie uses characteristic melodic minor voicings, again and again, that pop up all over his work and Wayne's work. He's not thinking so much about specific chord tones, he's thinking pools of notes (melodic minors, major scale, diminished scale and whole tone, and of course some blues) for harmonic "episodes" as he calls them. I'm pretty sure he influenced Wayne to a great degree being the chord player and Wayne being the melody man.
    I'm hearing it from Herbie, I don't hear it so much from Wayne. Wayne isn't expressing harmony in the same way on a lot of his solos. He plays a lot fewer notes for one. And Wayne is like Mr Pentatonic as well.,. I haven't studied Wayne on this song (no time) but it seems form solos on other tunes that he's not well behaved in the way Herbie is.

    I find that interesting. The Herbie approach is more familiar to me. I hear it imitated a lot... it's like Seinfeld. Pianists playing lots of notes... OK. I hear lots of guitar players who are very accomplished in that approach as well.

    One thing that strikes me as effective about those Miles and Wayne recordings is that not everyone has the same approach. Diversity is good. Herbie is valued because he has his own voice and approach. Somehow that's become the voice and the approach. I have a problem with anyone telling me there's one right way to do things.

    Jazz education has kind of selected a canon of players that fit into their theory - Herbie is one, for instance. Pitch choices. Easy to evaluate. Miles, less so. With down his notes and you'd fail theory 101.

    Also from an ears/theory basis I think characteristic melodic minor voicings are often not as characteristic as they are cracked up to be. That's why I like Jordan/Stephon Harris's approach. It's a lot more specific. Look at the melodic triad, not a whole scale. It's great for this type of thing... You get all the sounds, but they are much more controlled and refined.

    For instance - b5 in the Bb7#9b13 chord?

    The closest thing to characteristic melodic minor voicing for me might be a major triad with an add b6 used in various US positions - tone below a m7b5, tone above a dom 7th, and so on... It's good because it avoids internal tritones which is tough with the melodic minor scale. But that's not even melodic minor, not really ...

    Why 7 notes? Why not 8? Or 6? Or 9?

    Is one dorian voicing fungible for another? (Of course not.)

  17. #266

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    I'm not a huge fan of Wayne's playing TBH. Or, I should amend that to not always. His writing, hell yeah. I found it kind of meandering in that Plugged Nickel period. Just sort of discursive, and never taking you home. And I found his soprano sound personal, but kind of bleating. Dug the earlier and contemporaneous Blue Notes very much, and whenever else he played---not more 'in', but with a certain artistic self-editing.

    I know he's a great player and probable genius, and it was really astonishing to hear him play over his challenging tunes on High Life and Atlantis----just like walking in the park. And I saw and heard him do it live with a string orchestra, and it kind of blew my mind. And someone played me a recording of Just in Time that was great in every way.

    What I mean: I dig very much the looseness of it---he and the late C. Sharpe are the two most flowing players I've heard, maybe. But as a total improviser, I prefer a little more focus, and a smooth wrap-up.

    Through it all I remain a fan and admirer, who would like to figure out his strategies...

  18. #267

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    Dunno a light bulb went on in many head when I heard his 60s stuff after not listening to that stuff for AGES (just his more recent stuff.) he’s not - that thing I thought he was at that point. He’s always been that puckish musical spirit...

    Post Trane virtuoso sax player? Well Yes and No... he’s just odd, droll. Is he serious? Plays like he talks. so then I heard that he’s always been that player...

    Harmonically, yeah not really what I though he was. Paraphrases the melody a LOT. In a weird way it sounds to me like the harmony is coincidental. He’s not playing the changes in the way that you might if you had the changes and played on each chord. He’s sitting at the centre of it?

    Hard to explain. And then Herbie comes along and plays the chords. Is OK. It’s his job.

  19. #268

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    ...And after all that I went on a listening jag. Re-copped Night Dreamer off the recording and jammed along. That's one of his (superficially) easiest and most rooted in blues pieces.

    Yeah, gotta play that one more. Wayne, moi, my acoustic---and thou(s)...

  20. #269

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    Pres didn't 'play the changes' either. Wore it like a badge---and I hear didn't do too bad with it...

  21. #270

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    Herbie and Wayne worked closely together harmonically. Herbie loves the sound of melodic minor harmony and so does Wayne. Herbie uses characteristic melodic minor voicings, again and again, that pop up all over his work and Wayne's work. He's not thinking so much about specific chord tones, he's thinking pools of notes (melodic minors, major scale, diminished scale and whole tone, and of course some blues) for harmonic "episodes" as he calls them. I'm pretty sure he influenced Wayne to a great degree being the chord player and Wayne being the melody man.
    There was a series of Herbie's masterclass lecture in Japanese jazz magazine, and on Nefertiti he said all the changes he'd seen were wrong and showed the one Wayne wrote and specified the voicing of each chord. So, I don't believe it was Herbie's influence, rather the opposite.

  22. #271

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    Wayne says his pieces are always evolving and changing. The recordings show this over the years. His tunes are not set in stone.

  23. #272

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    Pianists refer to the characteristic melodic minor voicing as b3 5 7 9, (or it’s common inversion 7, 9, b3, 5 ) a rootless voicing. It is applicable and interchangeable to all 7 modes of the parent melodic minor scale. Hancock moves that particular melodic minor voicing almost as freely in and out as McCoy Tyner moves his 4th voicing in and out of key on Passion Dance.

  24. #273

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Wayne’s original changes were:

    / Fm9 / Emaj7 Gbmaj7 / Emaj7 Db7 / Cmaj9
    / Cmaj9 / Cmin9 / Dbmaj7 Cmin9 / Db7b5 Amaj9
    / G+9 C9b5 / /

    according to the book I mentioned before, this is from the deposited lead sheet at Library of Congress. (The tune started out as a 10-bar theme in 4:4).
    reading the same book, illustrates the obscured Fm tonality of the piece. Curious though about bar 7 and the Ab maj7 nat5/#5 which is marked in the lead sheet from E.S.P., the bar starts w a D nat, the #11/b5, but Wayne’s solo does not touch the D

  25. #274

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Harmonically, yeah not really what I though he was. Paraphrases the melody a LOT. In a weird way it sounds to me like the harmony is coincidental. He’s not playing the changes in the way that you might if you had the changes and played on each chord. He’s sitting at the centre of it?.
    This was in part what caused the infamous rant against Shorter that spread like wildfire through the jazz press some years ago. There are early recordings where Wayne does play conventionally over changes but it's not really where he lives. As Joel points out and you suggest above, Shorter's approach is more post-Pres, gnomic, discursive and occasionally mischievous. Incidentally, he composed the tribute tune, Lester Left Town for Art Blakey's Messengers (The Big Beat) and navigates his own changes without any problems.


  26. #275

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB View Post
    This was in part what caused the infamous rant against Shorter that spread like wildfire through the jazz press some years ago. There are early recordings where Wayne does play conventionally over changes but it's not really where he lives. As Joel points out and you suggest above, Shorter's approach is more post-Pres, gnomic, discursive and occasionally mischievous. Incidentally, he composed the tribute tune, Lester Left Town for Art Blakey's Messengers (The Big Beat) and navigates his own changes without any problems.

    Great tune.

    Stan Getz took the 'mysticism' out Wayne's original changes (with II Vs---for shame!), and changed the melody a bit. And why not? Sounds great. (I like the original myself)...


  27. #276

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    That solo by Lee---jeez!

    I may have heart failure...

  28. #277

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB View Post
    This was in part what caused the infamous rant against Shorter that spread like wildfire through the jazz press some years ago. There are early recordings where Wayne does play conventionally over changes but it's not really where he lives. As Joel points out and you suggest above, Shorter's approach is more post-Pres, gnomic, discursive and occasionally mischievous. Incidentally, he composed the tribute tune, Lester Left Town for Art Blakey's Messengers (The Big Beat) and navigates his own changes without any problems.

    i actually learned my first bits of bebop vocabulary from Wayne so yeah.

    He just doesn’t spaff chord scales on his tunes. It’s interesting to me that he doesn’t do this.

    You know jazz educators focus on a core of musicians that are easy to systematise in terms of pitch choices and vocabulary. So in their own ways, Parker, Bud Powell, Bill Evans and Herbie all fit this to some degree.... so their approach becomes the mainstream approach everyone uses. And everyone ends up approaching things in the same sort of way....

    theres something unsatisfying about the harmony driven approach to me now... see the Steve Swallow quote on the other thread.... playing the song not just using whatever stuff you have off the shelf.

    it also gives me a clue how to play my own music and god knows I need help with that. Everyone else smokes me at my own tunes haha.

  29. #278

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    Pianists refer to the characteristic melodic minor voicing as b3 5 7 9, (or it’s common inversion 7, 9, b3, 5 ) a rootless voicing. It is applicable and interchangeable to all 7 modes of the parent melodic minor scale. Hancock moves that particular melodic minor voicing almost as freely in and out as McCoy Tyner moves his 4th voicing in and out of key on Passion Dance.
    that’s also like a George Russel thing.

    anyway, yes this is by now a fairly obvious application of melodic minor .

  30. #279

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    TBH it’s not even melodic minor really. It’s just an augmented major 7. Wynton Kelly plays that sound on Freddie Freeloader for instance if iirc.

    If it be melodic minor where are the other three notes be at? How is it characteristic of the melodic minor mode? It could be harmonic minor, for instance or just minor. Or m6-dim. Or any number of 8 or 9 note scale I could construct. Or just 4 notes, which is what it is.

    What specific theoretical understanding is gained from invoking a whole scale to explain what is a minor voicing that can be related to a number of chords using the usual substitution relations?

    The relation of minor to the other chords is fairly obvious stuff.

    So you can interpret this as melodic minor harmony if you want. I’d be more interested in what Herbie himself says about it, but I daresay a lot of this stuff is like ABC for him....

    This will no doubt seem incredibly pendantic because it obviously is but I mention it to just assert the extent to which our educational and theoretical background filter the way we see and hear things. Like the Ravel above...

    Theoretically it seems more likely Herbie was thinking Lydian Chromatic Concept, which is similar in some ways to chord scale theory, sure, but not exactly the same thing...

    To me I just think minor related to dominant, relative major. These sounds - the natural 7 or 13 say, have a specific sound within that framework, but people who get too interested in the melodic minor specifically neglect to realise that you can in fact chop and change and minor lines are rarely one or the other in entirety. Herbie from what I know of him seems a case in point....

    Wes, Strayhorn etc the same.

    So in my own teaching practice I usually slot melodic minor in as a sub case of standard relative to dominant, minor and major chords. So by this point none of this is a tremendously big deal. You can stay in or go out to diminished and whole tone via melodic minor...
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-25-2020 at 08:37 AM.

  31. #280

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    Some could be confusing LCC and melodic Minor yes they share elements, embedded within Melodic minor are substantial elements of Diminished and Whole tone scales


    In Classical theory minor scales- Natural, HM, MM are related to and derived from a Major scale


    eg C Major relative is Aminor, then we get to Jazz where Melodic minor has a seventh and raised sixth both up and down. So A Melodic minor has a signature of two sharps F#, G# what major key??? C Maj.............. Nope.


    (can be tricky initially) Perhaps some not realising there are 4 note Diatonic seventh chords in Melodic Minor and Functional seventh chords without listing all

    ex:1 C melodic minor C D Eb F G A B the 2nd degree

    Diatonic Dmin7 D F A C
    Functional Dm7b9 13 D Eb A B


    one could think hearing or seeing D Eb A B there is no b3 F or b7 C its because the defining notes and extensions are contained in that chord. The term seventh is not strictly accurate as the chord may not have a 7th as above.

    ex:2
    Diatonic Bm7b5
    Functional B7b9#9b13 B C D A


    This does not occur in Major and Minor harmony. Take C melodic minor between the scale degrees 3 and 7 there are consecutive whole steps almost a whole tone scale....does that sound like minor to you? ah ha........ Augmented Ja, Lydian augmented --- Paul McCartney said Yesterday

    Interchangeable indeed............................. juggle the Bass notes around see where you go.
    Last edited by marvinvv; 05-25-2020 at 12:46 PM.

  32. #281

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    I know the theory, what I’m interested in is what people actually play. People are always bringing up theory. Theory is for example papers. Praxis is in the analysis of real music, working out what’s going on for yourself.

    There’s not very many examples I’ve transcribed of pure melodic minor in the melodic lines of pre jazz college era musicians. Most musicians of the era seem to treat it as interchangeable with the dorian mode. Because they are playing melodic lines, not scale patterns.

    Take Wes soloing on Nica’s Dream for instance. A lot of modern players would worry about the maj7s in the chords. Because that’s what they’ve been taught is important for some reason.

    Another good example would be the way Herbie solos on the A7#11 Bbm11 vamp in Speak no Evil.

    All of these sounds can be chopped and changed according to what sound the player wants. Learning on the 7 sounds TASTY which is why people liked it... Maybe Strayhorn started that? Hence the development of the concept we call ‘melodic minor harmony’

    As far as the whole tones go - Wes actually plays the whole tone scale on a minor chord in his 4 on 6 solo. Presumably relating ii and V.

    Anyway, there’s four basic relationships a player needs to understand here
    - ii V
    - tritone sub (or Dom resolve down half step might be simpler)
    - relative major
    - minor to m7b5

    If you want to involve diminished that can be no5.

    All the melodic minor harmony in common use can be learned that way. Plus diminished and whole tone if you want. And, diatonic as well, of course.
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-25-2020 at 03:03 PM.

  33. #282

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    So, going further into it...

    Now we might see melodic minor harmony in Chelsea Bridge - the actual line is - again - a mixed scale Bb dorian/melodic minor with what we might see as a long appoggiatura on the 7th of the scale. Later in the shout we have the F triad emphasised against the Eb7#11 chord.

    So any musician us going to hear that and think - melodic minor.

    OTOH according to Peter Ind, Tristano was teaching melodic minor as far back as the 40s. And of course, Tristano's heroes like Charlie Christian and often leant on the major 6 on a minor chord. Charlie Christian called this a 'worry note.' So there was an understanding that any student of the music of the time would recognise - that the minor was a thing with a 6 in it, and the 7 could be either flat or natural depending on the melody, but the 6th was the main leaning note. (Players of this era often used the dorian mode, as later players did.)

    We can also put notes of the harmonic minor in there, and weave in and out of the basic tonality. That's obviously what Barry Harris teaches to this day.

    So - my contention would be the idea of 'melodic minor' was only necessitated by the shift in the sound of the minor chord around the time of Kind of Blue - 'Miles changed the sound of the minor chord' as Peter Bernstein has put it.

    So, there is a necessity in education to specify 'the one with a major 6 and 7 in it' as opposed to say the m7 sound. This wasn't really necessary in perhaps the same way in the 1940s and 50s because no one really treated the b7 as a consonant note (In the example below from the 30s, but the Gb against the Abm chord is treated as a leaning dissonance. All rhythm guitar players would play Abm6 here).

    This is especially important because modern jazz theory books usually start with the four basic seventh chords, and when you do that, you have to get specific about what sort of seventh is in the related scales right away.

    So - melodic minor harmony. Before it was simply 'minor.' It's not really, unless anything post war is modern.

    This is my hunch - So, why do I think this is a problem? It's a subtle distinction.

    Well I think people end up sweating the individual harmony of each note more than the context because they are thinking about every note being part of one scale. In reality, if I play for instance a D minor key bop line, that will 100% definitely sound great on G7, Bm7b5 and Db7alt. Bebop - hell, swing era musicians to some extent - absolutely understood this. But their lines do not simply use the notes of melodic minor, because they are melodic lines.

    (Also, notice how I said all of this without using any convoluted Greek/Latin mashup terminology.)

    IMO thinking about melodic minor gets rid of some of that flexibility and creative vagueness and putting cool melodies and voicings into exciting contexts in tunes, and we get locked into thinking about right notes and wrong notes instead. It's a subtle distinction, but I think the way we frame ideas is really important. The latter thinking is like a mind virus that leaks out of the terminology.

    And 'melodic minor' stuff comes in later in the process as something 'exotic' and 'modern.' Separate and special form the general run of things.

    Stuff like 'don't play the 13 on the iim7 chord' is not wrong exactly - just backwards sort of framing. Too much harmonic specificity too early. No wonder I've met a bunch of jazz school graduates who can't really deal with rhythm changes. It's impossible to play it that way.

    It's only recently I discovered how generalised about the harmony good changes player are, and how they skilfully allow the surface complexity in their lines to create harmonic movement while keeping the basic thinking process very simple.

    There's a second problem which is that people seem confused about whether the function of modern jazz theory is describe and summarise what previous musicians did or offer options for musicians to get fresh sounds.
    Attached Images Attached Images One way of thinking about Non Functional Harmony-screenshot-2020-05-25-19-38-27-jpg 
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-25-2020 at 03:21 PM.

  34. #283

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    And Chuck Wayne (I know, b/c I studied w/him many lifetimes ago) would not even recognize mode names or modal anything. He called scales by their chord functions---i.e.: G7th scale, not mixolydian. He felt that diatonic/chromatic harmony replaced and made irrelevant modes, and let's not even talk about modal jazz. (Barry Harris is almost identical in that thinking).

    And they both have lots of followers. There's a 'School of Chuck Wayne' someone created. Maybe his student Agnostino?

    I kind of chuckle at all 'dueling theorists', and reiterate: voice-lead from one note or chord to the next. The End.

    What to call it? I can only quote the venerable person with the 'theory' of sticking a harmonica in his mouth and making it sing: Sonny Boy Williamson (II---Rice Miller): ('Little Village, motherf&&r, Little Village!) Call it yo' mama if you want!!'...

  35. #284

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    TBH it’s not even melodic minor really. It’s just an augmented major 7. Wynton Kelly plays that sound on Freddie Freeloader for instance if iirc.

    If it be melodic minor where are the other three notes be at? How is it characteristic of the melodic minor mode? It could be harmonic minor, for instance or just minor. Or m6-dim. Or any number of 8 or 9 note scale I could construct. Or just 4 notes, which is what it is.

    What specific theoretical understanding is gained from invoking a whole scale to explain what is a minor voicing that can be related to a number of chords using the usual substitution relations?

    Theoretically it seems more likely Herbie was thinking Lydian Chromatic Concept, which is similar in some ways to chord scale theory, sure, but not exactly the same thing...

    ..
    To be honest the proof is in Herbie's right-hand lines where he is obviously playing in the melodic minor pool of notes over those characteristic left hand melodic minor rootless voicings. Herbie favors the dark mysterious beautiful sound of melodic minor. Not so much the old middle eastern sounding Harmonic Minor with it's awkward augmented 2nd (the 7th was raised in theory to accommodate the harmony of the Dominant chord not because the augmented 2nd sounds so great melodically). Why do you think they called it the melodic minor? Could it be that it's more "melodic"?
    Another benefit for pianists who use the gimmick of melodic minor, it is a great convenience, is that the fingerings are the same as the major scales which are deeply ingrained in virtuoso pianist's technique. Harmonic minor fingering on the piano is a hassle. Another huge benefit with melodic minor is that harmonically, everything is interchangeable in melodic minor, the voicings the roots the melodies, everything. That is a tremendous advantage for creativity on the fly in modern jazz piano. Not so in the other minors. The 7 modes of melodic minor yield the most common favorite chord qualities fo players such as Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea, Freddy Hubbard, Joe Henderson, and Wayne Shorter.
    The majority of Hancock's lines display him sculpting within the pools of the melodic minor, major scale, diminished scale, whole-tone scale, and blues scales. His lines do not reveal much devotion to the complicated Lydian Chromatic theories.
    Last edited by rintincop; 05-25-2020 at 10:54 PM.

  36. #285

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    John Stowell is the guitarist that comes to mind that is into practicing the technique of imposing a melodic minor harmony/scale on every chord of a tune, in practice, and not necessarily on gigs. He will take a tune like Take The A Train and overlay a melodic minor mode for every single chord in the piece! Mark Levine, Art Lande, and many others practice this reharm technique. Traditional players dislike this, they have said it destroys harmony. I tend to agree.

    A Train (all modes of various melodic minors):
    ||: Cmaj7+5 | Cmaj7+5 | D7+11 | D7+11 |
    | D-maj7 G7sus b9 | Ebmaj7+5 | G7 sus b9 :||
    Last edited by rintincop; 05-25-2020 at 10:54 PM.

  37. #286

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    OT: It's a similar freedom of reharm or compostion that I tried to explain in my previous post about take a chromatic bass line descending and put it under any standard melody and reharmonize it on the fly with cool voicings. Then do it with ascending chromatic bass... then in whole step bass motion, then minor third bass motion, then major third bass motion, then in perfect 4ths, whatever symetrical patterns you can devise, BUT the goal is to do it freely mixed and more by ear (like Wayne). That's a big part of Wayne's approach even if you don't see it or believe it. It's freedom.
    Last edited by rintincop; 05-25-2020 at 10:54 PM.

  38. #287

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    Melodic minor is traditional musical norms. We’ve had this for 60+ years has been an educational paradigm for at least 40...

    why do people go on about it as if it’s something new?

  39. #288

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    Also what works on a piano doesn’t necessarily work on the guitar.

  40. #289

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    You are like some sort of music theory police lawyer, but you didn't refute any of my points . John Stowell seems to think it works on guitar. Herbie and Wayne are not guitar players. I personally am not a fan of the melodic minor modes method or Wayne's tunes in general, but I think I understand his compositional process. I do like Wayne's soloing, especially on Native Dancer and his early Blue Note albums. I like Herbie's compositions better.

  41. #290

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    im not here to refute a thing.

    I am pointing out what I feel are problems with framing things a certain way - that’s to do with people feeling limited to just playing a chord scale, when actually you can play lines and melodies much more freely, and you can get all those sounds.

    I’m also questioning whether melodic minor harmony was some evolutionary leap or a fairly steady development of earlier practices (obviously, it is right?) and that actually the novel thing in jazz was the use of the m7 on minor chords in the 60s. Barry Harris and Peter Bernstein appear to agree with me here, among others, so I’m comfortable with this as a working theory.

    I’m not going to argue with you cos you’ll just spam more theory I already know and use.

    Anyway, i don’t have a thing against melodic minor, I think it sounds good. I think CST can also make you a bit generalised in the harmony. This is something that goes with chord symbols and real book. It’s problematic... you just have to use your ears.

    Not ever minor chord has a seventh, and so on. Good musicians know this of course... But the edu system is always guilty of emphasising some things over others.

    In terms of Wayne- What I’m interested in is listening carefully to musicians do on these tunes and form my own conclusions. Some of which I put up here and then people post up a fairly conventional jazz theory response; the second hand interpretation that I already know (I read Levines books 20 years ago.) it’s less interesting.

    People I think like to present jazz as a smooth historical narrative, and if you select examples and musicians carefully you can make this case. they then seem to defend this narrative to the hilt. But at any point in history you are going to see things are more complex. What you say above is pretty much what I’ve been saying, but you are clinging to certain theory which as a teacher I would find convenient to ignore or reframe.

    I came to this music expecting to hear the stuff you are talking about, for me to slot melodic minors neatly into their historical context and track down the development of the chord scale approach. It is there... to some extent. But actually there’s more going on than that, and that’s exciting to me.

    After all there’s a ton of pianists who sound like a bargain basement Herbie Hancock (not just fault) and guitarists which adapt his basic approach; but I would say fewer players who approach improv like Wayne.

  42. #291

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    Another way of putting it is this. Things have moved on. We live an information rich environment. What you say above about melodic minor harmony is very common knowledge, by which I mean serious jazz students I have even at the pre-undergraduate level know this stuff already. They don't even need to read Levine's book to get a good understanding of melodic modes etc, it's all out there on the web.

    There's nothing modern or unusual about it.

    Also, there are so many confusions in thought over the way this material is presented. The terminology does a fantastic job of making it sound much more complicated than it actually is. On top of this, there is a lack of clarity in what the various branches of jazz theory are intended to do.

    A lot of this was in originally reaction to the learning environments of the generation who developed this way of teaching, which is to say experiential, leading onto the student seeking ideas using new sounds - when they got bored of playing standards, for instance.

    This is not the case with present students. They have a mass of theoretical information but no road map on how to apply it. In general what I end up doing is telling students what to work on and how. They often don't know how to construct jazz vocabulary for instance. Herbie was obviously able to do this before he started playing Wayne's music, for instance.

    (Why do you think Barry Harris has suddenly got so popular with young people? He addresses these questions in his teaching.)

    I feel strongly the future of jazz education is obviously not in definitive closed answers and theoretical information - it's in encouraging, creativity, diversity of thought and yes the dreaded praxis. The situated learning environment of past eras of jazz was very good at doing this. It's entirely possible to do it an educational environment, if we are smart educators.

  43. #292

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    My post above re- melodic minor was only to show how some chords dont appear Diatonic but are functional,
    ie even without 3rd 7th, so if not familiar can see and hear where it is from and its FUNCTION




    The interchangeable things does not really happen in say Major whereby Em7 & Bm7b5 sound completely different.


    a point rintincop made --- mentioned how Hancock moves that particular melodic minor voicing almost as freely in and out as McCoy Tyner moves his 4th voicing in and out of key.




    I’m also questioning whether melodic minor harmony was some evolutionary leap or a fairly steady development of earlier practices. Yeah i think it was always there, but got expanded, a bit like whole tone changed from say Thelonius use, to say Coltrane who used it more as Augmented then Michael breker did his thing with Augmented.
    Shorter seems to use a lot of Augmented so there is a lot of overlap. i guess i am saying where it starts or started and ended is not clear. Like the old altered scale bussiness.......




    I dont get the impression people think Melodic Minor is new, but maybe not knowing Melodic Minor
    is Key centred not cadence based, important, because there is no conventional resolution,(or for want of a word) unless one makes it, by playing or writing in, I think Holdsworth suffers from this ( alto some insanely beautiful music) but for non musician ears not much cadence going on, People are used to this either in Church Amen or simple Pop Rock songs have some cadence. ie they kind of know hear where it is going


    The orig thread post ( from what i understand) was to show how things that on the surface may appear NON function are functional, albeit disguised camouflaged, again the chords i mentioned in EX1 & 2 of earlier post,
    attempt to shoe this this.




    There are no real entire songs in Melodic Minor, this does not really happen. Its real easy to get bogged down in all this. Sometimes good to not listen Wayne Herbie and the gang, but hearing the older players . Getz, Pass purely because not all the players play the more modern or modal, just as Barry Harris does not like any of that.




    chord pluralities is an interesting thing, without going into Melodic or NON Function or what ever......another subject i guess.

  44. #293

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    .
    I am pointing out what I feel are problems with framing things a certain way - that’s to do with people feeling limited to just playing a chord scale, when actually you can play lines and melodies much more freely, and you can get all those sounds.
    i think you are right about that

  45. #294

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    Quote Originally Posted by marvinvv View Post
    My post above re- melodic minor was only to show how some chords dont appear Diatonic but are functional,
    ie even without 3rd 7th, so if not familiar can see and hear where it is from and its FUNCTION




    The interchangeable things does not really happen in say Major whereby Em7 & Bm7b5 sound completely different.


    a point rintincop made --- mentioned how Hancock moves that particular melodic minor voicing almost as freely in and out as McCoy Tyner moves his 4th voicing in and out of key.




    I’m also questioning whether melodic minor harmony was some evolutionary leap or a fairly steady development of earlier practices. Yeah i think it was always there, but got expanded, a bit like whole tone changed from say Thelonius use, to say Coltrane who used it more as Augmented then Michael breker did his thing with Augmented.
    Shorter seems to use a lot of Augmented so there is a lot of overlap. i guess i am saying where it starts or started and ended is not clear. Like the old altered scale bussiness.......




    I dont get the impression people think Melodic Minor is new, but maybe not knowing Melodic Minor
    is Key centred not cadence based, important, because there is no conventional resolution,(or for want of a word) unless one makes it, by playing or writing in, I think Holdsworth suffers from this ( alto some insanely beautiful music) but for non musician ears not much cadence going on, People are used to this either in Church Amen or simple Pop Rock songs have some cadence. ie they kind of know hear where it is going


    The orig thread post ( from what i understand) was to show how things that on the surface may appear NON function are functional, albeit disguised camouflaged, again the chords i mentioned in EX1 & 2 of earlier post,
    attempt to shoe this this.




    There are no real entire songs in Melodic Minor, this does not really happen. Its real easy to get bogged down in all this. Sometimes good to not listen Wayne Herbie and the gang, but hearing the older players . Getz, Pass purely because not all the players play the more modern or modal, just as Barry Harris does not like any of that.




    chord pluralities is an interesting thing, without going into Melodic or NON Function or what ever......another subject i guess.
    I think it’s important to get beyond the names. The names are ... politicised. For instance in a workshop with Barry he was discussing what to play on the Dbmaj7 in the first A of All the Things. He said - play the major scale with a raised 4th.

    We were all daring each other to say something. No one had the stupidity haha.

    So yeah.

    If I play a minor 3 phrase (C E G# B for instance, lol) on the important minor of D7.... Ok, you get the picture.

    I’ve heard Barry talk about melodic minor once in his workshops, so even though he tends to use m6-dim for minor applications it’s clearly not totally off his radar. Everything that can be done with the melodic minor can of course also be done with the m6-dim. all the sounds exist within it.

    You get some bonus sounds into the deal like v13b9 and V7#9#11 which might normally be taught as diminished scale sounds.

    Anyhoo. Altered dominant sounds are ... sensitive. Like you just wouldn’t play a b5 on some of them in some tunes - the 7#9b13 sound is a profoundly different animal from 7b5 for instance.

    Jazz education seems to have forgotten about Dominant II as Warne Marsh called it, but it gets used even on such relatively modern records as Angel Song, Bill Frisell isn’t going to play that b5 sound where it doesn’t belong. He just isn’t because he hears detail and specific sounds and not some generalised chord scale thing.

    A one size fits all approach isn’t in anyone’s interest.

    TBH I think of the relative Mel min major (Lydian augmented) as being the real post functional sound. Before this point majors acted more as destination points.

    so music moves more from centring around the moving chords such as dominants (they can all be related to dominants) to majors and minors of varying complexity. The dominant becomes less and less important.

  46. #295

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    If I was to put a line in the sand between Herbie and what had come before I would say earlier pianists by and large played what they wanted over simple left hand voicings.

    Herbie under the influence maybe of Bill Evans and Ahmad Jamal as well as his classical studies starts to think more of the two hands being integrated.

    That shifts the whole paradigm ... no longer is it about the chips falling where they may between the two hands (including clashes and false relations between the hands) but a more vertically integrated approach... chord scales including melodic minor modes are useful for that.

    So Barry might play Ebm7 arpeggio line in the right hand over an A7 chord in the left hand but he isn’t thinking of that as a voicing per se. He’s think of it as a line on a turnaround.

    Post Herbie everything’s a chord.

    That’s the difference. And this is when players become tempted to micromanage their pitch choices on chords in terms of vertical harmony (which Herbie for instance doesn’t do) The way analysis is taught at schools encourages this.

    (One reason why dominant II, for example - which Warne Marsh defines as the melodic minor on the b7th of the dominant chord - isn’t found much in jazz edu literature, could be that it inconveniently has a b3 and a 4 and no 3, so can’t be used very easily to generate voicings despite its heavy use in jazz lines. Even the altered scale - which Warne termed Dominant III - is really shoehorned into the system; it doesn’t quite work.)

    I feel something is lost here, and a lot of jazz harmony can end up sounding a bit samey and lacking in tension and grit and lines can sound more like rolled chords or exercises than melodies in their own right (not true of Herbie for instance but of many lesser modern players.)

    They are alternative approaches that are neither of these two things. And of course you can teach CST in a more relaxed and intelligent way.

    Actually a lot of diversity seems to my ears to have existed at the change of paradigms. Coltrane is not playing chord scales the way we would today, or McCoy. Or for that matter, Wayne (at least not all the time.) You know everyone has Wynton Kelly down as mr sunshine swing, but he has some pretty complex chordal sounds sometimes. The history is messy and interesting.
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-26-2020 at 08:21 AM.

  47. #296

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    Wayne swimming with dolphins, you can hear that Miles D plugged nickel vibe coming thro shorter except this band doesnt go there, not many did until while after plugged nickel this would have been approx next year after p nickel, pianists starts heading in Herbie vibe at approx 6 min . But hey Tony Williams and Ron on Bass hard act to follow





    im not sure this is in the right category

  48. #297

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    Will check it!

  49. #298

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    Got permission! Here's Glenn Mills's Broad Daylight, chart and sound file:
    Attached Images Attached Images
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  50. #299

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    Thanks Joel!

  51. #300

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    chris, I just "spam (irrelevant or inappropriate) theory" ? To be honest I haven't learned a thing from your verbose pontifications about Wayne Shorter. I think I agree with your description of yourself earlier in this thread: you are a snob.