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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I can't remember what I did now but in the first post I said 'And the Dmb6 was just a sort of AM7 sound', so that's probably it. Maybe a bit Ab6-ish in the end.

    You know, I've been thinking. This stuff might be money for old rope. Think of a strong but meaningful sort of melody, put some random changes underneath it, and give it to a top bunch of players. Instant hit. I reckon it's much harder to write a really good song that lasts the test of time.

    That one may be Iris for Wayne, I don't know. I heard someone describe his 'Dance Cadaverous' as beautiful the other day so I looked at it. Put the changes down and just did the melody on it. You can listen if you want. Complete nonsense, really :-)
    sure. I’d rather spend a little more time properly familiarising myself with this one before moving on.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102

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    It's okay, I don't do immediate either :-)

  4. #103

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    A summary of the principles of Shorter's music. In those cases where standard harmonic practice seems not to apply, the bass lines provide the main clues as to prolongational function, not the chord structures above them. As a result, in such cases, one must rely on rhythm, context, and formal location of the bass intervals, which include fifths, thirds, and seconds. For example, a bass descending fifth at the end of a piece from a weak beat to a long-held chord on a strong beat will probably best be interpreted as a "dominant" "tonic" cadence even if the chord qualities do not agree with any standard patterns. Context has even suggested such an interpretation in the case of the tritone bass leap at the end of "Juju." In some contexts, such as an opening progression, a descending fifth might be interpreted as "tonic" to "subdominant." Stepwise bass lines involve neighbor chords, incomplete neighbor chords, or passing chords. Because the bass intervals can be nondiatonic, and because the chord qualities can include nondiatonic notes, nonfunctional progressions result between the elaborative chords and the surrounding chords. Bass motion of a third either divides a larger interval or creates an embellishing chord. Again, because of the possibility of a nondiatonic bass note for the elaborative chord and the variability of the chord qualities, nonfunctional progressions often result. Shorter's style rests on the relative weighting of standard harmonic practice versus the nonfunctional practices: although there is always some of the former, the latter quite often predominates. Background structures emphasizing the subdominant over the dominant, involving directional tonality or tonal pairing, or dividing the octave equally do not depend on nonfunctional foregrounds; however, such foregrounds can be replicated at the background level and can contribute to tonal ambiguity.

    Some of the harmonic characteristics described belong to the bebop style: the repeated pairs of I-bII chords of "Deluge" and "Speak No Evil" differ from those of Thelonious Monk's "Well You Needn't" or Dizzy Gillespie's "A Night in Tunisia" only in that Shorter's blls are major seventh chords originating in the phrygian mode, while the bebop blls are dominant sevenths arising from tritone substitution. Shorter uses II-V groups, but they are relatively infrequent and not a leading characteristic of his style as they are in bebop, in which they are ubiquitous. The other harmonic techniques and characteristics outlined above occur frequently in his music, represent innovations with respect to earlier jazz styles, and serve as the leading elements of his harmonic style.

    Most of these innovations are present in Shorter's compositions of 1964, calling into question whether they are truly the result of a broader evolutionary process. Although other jazz composers of the 1960s participated in the expansion of harmonic possibilities, Shorter is well known as a leader among them, and at least some of the categories examined probably belong to him more than to others. A general study of jazz harmony in the 1960s or studies of other individual composers would help to put Shorter's contributions in perspective.
    Last edited by rintincop; 05-07-2020 at 04:06 PM.

  5. #104

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    I was wondering how Ron Carter approached playing the bass on Shorter’s tunes, found this interview on Ethan Iverson’s site where he discusses it briefly, it has some interesting details:


    RC: Wayne writes really hard chords, man! They don’t always go where you want to go. But it’s up to you to make it work. The chord functions aren’t always in the bass, for example.

    EI: Now, why do the Wayne Shorter records that you and Herbie are on [Speak No Evil, The All-Seeing Eye, Schizophrenia] have such a different harmonic atmosphere than the Miles Davis records that feature Wayne’s tunes [Miles Smiles, Nefertiti, Sorcerer]?

    RC: You got another horn player: Miles Davis! Think about it if Sonny Stitt or J.J Johnson was the other horn….

    EI: Good Christ. [Laughter.] No, I mean, did Miles do something to Wayne’s charts?

    RC: No, we all were looking at Wayne’s written music. There was hardly any rehearsal. We usually just got the music in the recording studio. We made sure that the “A” section and the “B” – just the formal structure of a tune – was clear. And then we would make a take.

    EI: Were there chord symbols? I had a theory that there were sometimes only piano voicings on the charts and not changes.

    RC: No, it’s true that there were voicings, but also Wayne always had chord symbols. And he knew exactly what they meant! My job was to make them sound reasonable.


  6. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    A summary of the principles of Shorter's music. In those cases where standard harmonic practice seems not to apply, the bass lines provide the main clues as to prolongational function, not the chord structures above them. As a result, in such cases, one must rely on rhythm, context, and formal location of the bass intervals, which include fifths, thirds, and seconds. For example, a bass descending fifth at the end of a piece from a weak beat to a long-held chord on a strong beat will probably best be interpreted as a "dominant" "tonic" cadence even if the chord qualities do not agree with any standard patterns. Context has even suggested such an interpretation in the case of the tritone bass leap at the end of "Juju." In some contexts, such as an opening progression, a descending fifth might be interpreted as "tonic" to "subdominant." Stepwise bass lines involve neighbor chords, incomplete neighbor chords, or passing chords. Because the bass intervals can be nondiatonic, and because the chord qualities can include nondiatonic notes, nonfunctional progressions result between the elaborative chords and the surrounding chords. Bass motion of a third either divides a larger interval or creates an embellishing chord. Again, because of the possibility of a nondiatonic bass note for the elaborative chord and the variability of the chord qualities, nonfunctional progressions often result. Shorter's style rests on the relative weighting of standard harmonic practice versus the nonfunctional practices: although there is always some of the former, the latter quite often predominates. Background structures emphasizing the subdominant over the dominant, involving directional tonality or tonal pairing, or dividing the octave equally do not depend on nonfunctional foregrounds; however, such foregrounds can be replicated at the background level and can contribute to tonal ambiguity. Some of the harmonic characteristics described belong to the bebop style: the repeated pairs of I-bII chords of "Deluge" and "Speak No Evil" differ from those of Thelonious Monk's "Well You Needn't" or Dizzy Gillespie's "A Night in Tunisia" only in that Shorter's blls are major seventh chords originating in the phrygian mode, while the bebop blls are dominant sevenths arising from tritone substitution. Shorter uses II-V groups, but they are relatively infrequent and not a leading characteristic of his style as they are in bebop, in which they are ubiquitous. The other harmonic techniques and characteristics outlined above occur frequently in his music, represent innovations with respect to earlier jazz styles, and serve as the leading elements of his harmonic style. Most of these innovations are present in Shorter's compositions of 1964, calling into question whether they are truly the result of a broader evolutionary process.35 Although other jazz composers of the 1960s participated in the expansion of harmonic possibilities, Shorter is well known as a leader among them, and at least some of the categories examined above probably belong to him more than to others. A general study of jazz harmony in the 1960s or studies of other individual composers would help to put Shorter's contributions in perspective.
    Could you put some line breaks in this to aid comprehension?

  7. #106

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    + the link to the site he got it from... :-)

  8. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    + the link to the site he got it from... :-)
    Googling the text suggests this, although I don’t think you can view the actual document here. (Google showed a preview of some of the text, which matches).

    JSTOR: Access Check

  9. #108

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    I know, I already found it. Well, we got to see it at least

    There are similar essays but on Oxford Uni sites you have to sign up to.

  10. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    A summary of the principles of Shorter's music. In those cases where standard harmonic practice seems not to apply, the bass lines provide the main clues as to prolongational function, not the chord structures above them. As a result, in such cases, one must rely on rhythm, context, and formal location of the bass intervals, which include fifths, thirds, and seconds.
    I'm really not sure if I agree with this

    For example, a bass descending fifth at the end of a piece from a weak beat to a long-held chord on a strong beat will probably best be interpreted as a "dominant" "tonic" cadence even if the chord qualities do not agree with any standard patterns. Context has even suggested such an interpretation in the case of the tritone bass leap at the end of "Juju." In some contexts, such as an opening progression, a descending fifth might be interpreted as "tonic" to "subdominant." Stepwise bass lines involve neighbor chords, incomplete neighbor chords, or passing chords. Because the bass intervals can be nondiatonic, and because the chord qualities can include nondiatonic notes, nonfunctional progressions result between the elaborative chords and the surrounding chords. Bass motion of a third either divides a larger interval or creates an embellishing chord. Again, because of the possibility of a nondiatonic bass note for the elaborative chord and the variability of the chord qualities, nonfunctional progressions often result. Shorter's style rests on the relative weighting of standard harmonic practice versus the nonfunctional practices: although there is always some of the former, the latter quite often predominates. Background structures emphasizing the subdominant over the dominant, involving directional tonality or tonal pairing, or dividing the octave equally do not depend on nonfunctional foregrounds; however, such foregrounds can be replicated at the background level and can contribute to tonal ambiguity.
    Translation - 'I don't have a clue what's going on functionally in Wayne tunes.'

    Maybe they are functional... Maybe not.

    I mean the Neapolitan chord, bII, in classical music is a subdominant chord. It is usually therefore followed by a dominant. It can also be understood as a modal interchange chord into major - here, Phrygian.

    The slow movement of the Moonlight Sonata is a classic example. In the works of Schubert, the Horace Silver tune Peace and All The Things You Are it is used as a means of modulation to distant keys. (B to Bb in Peace, Ab to C in ATTYA.)

    But this is not how Wayne uses it. So, I wonder if non functional music isn't the realm of the constant subdominant? OTOH, Wayne does use a lot of dominants. I'm still unsure whether I feel tases dominants provide an obscure, but functional means of motion, or are just used colouristically.

    Some of the harmonic characteristics described belong to the bebop style: the repeated pairs of I-bII chords of "Deluge" and "Speak No Evil" differ from those of Thelonious Monk's "Well You Needn't" or Dizzy Gillespie's "A Night in Tunisia" only in that Shorter's blls are major seventh chords originating in the phrygian mode, while the bebop blls are dominant sevenths arising from tritone substitution. Shorter uses II-V groups, but they are relatively infrequent and not a leading characteristic of his style as they are in bebop, in which they are ubiquitous. The other harmonic techniques and characteristics outlined above occur frequently in his music, represent innovations with respect to earlier jazz styles, and serve as the leading elements of his harmonic style.
    In Iris the I-bII also includes a move to dominant on bII.

    It's not in fact heard as being diatonic to the Phrygian mode for reasons I discuss in the videos above (Wayne and Freddie play pentatonic, for instance, Herbie alternates C dorian and Db lydian in Speak No Evil) although the relationship can be understood that way. I prefer the idea of constant pentatonic/blues melody, non diatonic baselines. This appears to be the organising principle of Deluge for example, with the bass moving Eb - E - A - Ab - B, but the melody using notes chosen from the Eb minor blues scale.

    These things have to taken on a case by case basis. Wayne, I think, has a number of devices that get used and refused, for instance:

    - chordal motion by diatonic third
    - dominants and ii-V's resolving unexpectedly (i.e. not by
    - this Phrygian vamp idea
    - m7 to maj7 a semitone below
    - pedals using modal interchange voicings
    - Upper structure triads moving in unusual but parsimonious ways with basslines moving by leap.
    - pedals in the top voice
    - non diatonic contrary motion
    - pentatonic/blues melody underpinned by chromatic bass movement

    I'm sure you can think of loads more. We can see these devices also in other composers.

    Most of these innovations are present in Shorter's compositions of 1964, calling into question whether they are truly the result of a broader evolutionary process. Although other jazz composers of the 1960s participated in the expansion of harmonic possibilities, Shorter is well known as a leader among them, and at least some of the categories examined probably belong to him more than to others. A general study of jazz harmony in the 1960s or studies of other individual composers would help to put Shorter's contributions in perspective.
    Shorter's influence is massive. I wonder if it's not much more based on intuition. As a sidebar, here's the progression of a tune I wrote about 12 years ago:
    One way of thinking about Non Functional Harmony-always-going-happen-1-jpg
    I bring this up because a couple of the progressions echo ones we can see in Iris and the other tunes. I'd made no study of Wayne's music. I'd merely listened to it, Kenny Wheeler and Kurt Rosenwinkel, and used chords at the piano that I liked the sound of. As the article rintincop posted suggested, I was very aware of bass movement when writing this. So, this much is definitely the case... But I think with enough tunes, one could get a sense of what the 'non functional' II-Vs and turnarounds so to speak, are.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  11. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    + the link to the site he got it from... :-)
    Yep... always cite your sources. It would be helpful...

  12. #111

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    Do we get to hear the tune then?

  13. #112

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    As far as I can see, these modern compositions don't have turnarounds. Except the last chord might segue into the first - not necessarily by logic but by sound.

    (Your AbM7 - Am11 becomes a repeated pattern)

  14. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    As far as I can see, these modern compositions don't have turnarounds. Except the last chord might segue into the first - not necessarily by logic but by sound.
    No, equivalents to turnarounds etc in terms of their frequent usage.

    Not in terms of function. Although I think there’s some non traditional turnaround type progressions in Joe Henderson’s tunes.

    (Your AbM7 - Am11 becomes a repeated pattern)
    yes. It does seem like quite a common move in contemporary jazz rep. For instance, Phase Dance, Pat Metheny. I think i was unconsciously referencing tunes I’d heard when I wrote that. But we also see that move in Iris, Zhivago if I recall correctly, and I’m sure many other modern tunes if I knew more.

  15. #114

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    1953 "Glass Enclosure" by Bud Powell
    Wayne Shorter was influenced by the more advanced harmonies used in "Glass Enclosure" and other Powell compositions from the 1950s in his own writing of music. (wiki)
    Attached Images Attached Images One way of thinking about Non Functional Harmony-glass-e-page1-jpg 

  16. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    No, equivalents to turnarounds etc in terms of their frequent usage.

    Not in terms of function. Although I think there’s some non traditional turnaround type progressions in Joe Henderson’s tunes.



    yes. It does seem like quite a common move in contemporary jazz rep. For instance, Phase Dance, Pat Metheny. I think i was unconsciously referencing tunes I’d heard when I wrote that. But we also see that move in Iris, Zhivago if I recall correctly, and I’m sure many other modern tunes if I knew more.
    Don't care. Done Iris yet?

  17. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Don't care. Done Iris yet?
    Fuck off m8 :-)

  18. #117

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    I mean I could have done a shit half arsed version, but what’s the point of that?

    it won’t happen this weekend. I’m teaching. We’ll see where we are at on Monday.

  19. #118

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    My 2 cents: If people would only think voice-leading---getting from one note or chord to another---it would remove cluttered thinking and nomenclature. (I know: voice-leading doesn't apply to non-resolution, you'll say. Not so sure of that, either).

    All I know is it's much harder to play or write when over-thinking. Kills the flow. Over-naming is over-thinking. You want to study and analyze it after so you can learn and build. Of course we need names for things. But I've seen too many talented musicians lock and frustrate themselves with Rube Goldberg cartoon-like thinking. I don't teach much, but when I do I try to read students, watching carefully for over-complicated views in their thought processes, then gently guide them to the simplest way to view and name things.

    I guess I always had sort of a resentment of music theory. Not sure why, and I'm sure it's a failing in some way. But I do study scores and tunes and great solos, and try to connect the dots. But it's always the 'express route', and for me that means the simplest way to boil things down, with the big picture in view. Getting involved with stopping to name and hang out too long at the detail points will impede the flow--even of study.

    With a bow to my learned colleagues here, that's what works for me...

  20. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    My 2 cents: If people would only think voice-leading---getting from one note or chord to another---it would remove cluttered thinking and nomenclature. (I know: voice-leading doesn't apply to non-resolution, you'll say. Not so sure of that, either).

    All I know is it's much harder to play or write when over-thinking. Kills the flow. Over-naming is over-thinking. You want to study and analyze it after so you can learn and build. Of course we need names for things. But I've seen too many talented musicians lock and frustrate themselves with Rube Goldberg cartoon-like thinking. I don't teach much, but when I do I try to read students, watching carefully for over-complicated views in their thought processes, then gently guide them to the simplest way to view and name things.

    I guess I always had sort of a resentment of music theory. Not sure why, and I'm sure it's a failing in some way. But I do study scores and tunes and great solos, and try to connect the dots. But it's always the 'express route', and for me that means the simplest way to boil things down, with the big picture in view. Getting involved with stopping to name and hang out too long at the detail points will impede the flow--even of study.

    With a bow to my learned colleagues here, that's what works for me...
    I’m interested to know to what extent voice leading applies to Wayne’s harmony. I don’t know honestly. I’m not saying it doesn’t. Obviously how the chords connect is very important to him.

    It seems he thinks maybe melody, bass, mode/colour in that order.

  21. #120

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    And what you say touches on a key dilemma.

    to what extent should there be a pedagogical formulation of jazz progressions etc?

    And to what extent should teachers simply encourage students to get stuck in and work it out as they go?

    i actually lean much more to the latter. There’s little better advice you can give than ‘learn more tunes.’ As a teacher the urge is always to give too much information.

  22. #121

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    Unfortunately Durban is back in hospital, not too good, Dirk banned him for a little while, for being rude to someone. the least of his problems.

  23. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by marvinvv
    Unfortunately Durban is back in hospital, not too good, Dirk banned him for a little while, for being rude to someone. the least of his problems.
    im sorry to hear this. Hope he gets well soon!

  24. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    And what you say touches on a key dilemma.

    to what extent should there be a pedagogical formulation of jazz progressions etc?

    And to what extent should teachers simply encourage students to get stuck in and work it out as they go?

    i actually lean much more to the latter. There’s little better advice you can give than ‘learn more tunes.’ As a teacher the urge is always to give too much information.
    There's always gonna be a 'pedagogical formulation', especially in schools, where it's big business. And that ain't all bad. For one thing, the masters are almost all gone---though young players always have someone with a little on them to look up to, or copy. You're supposed to do that when you're young.

    And remember, I never said don't analyze, I said simplify. Everyone needs understanding to bolster intuition. Re students, yeah, I think it's best to at least try to figure things out. You get more out of it. But not every student's ready for that, and that also could lead to frustration or even disaster, trying to conclude things when you don't know what the hell you're doing. That's what teachers are for: the student should try to work things out, b/c everyone sees things and (we hope) approaches playing and breaking things down differently, according to his/her needs (and that's where schools can really f them up, with that codified nonsense). When they hit a wall, or as individual problems crop up, don't panic---ask the teacher.

    I really don't know what Wayne's doing, but he definitely came up the same way as everyone, with the extant materials and knowledge of same---he just was unafraid of his instincts. I think many of the post-'60s jazz composers were seriously checking out 20th Century classical materials. Woody Shaw, Joe Hen, McCoy, Chick---all the people into 4ths and lots of other goodies.

    Speaking of which: 'non-functional' harmony is nothing new---maybe newer to jazz. The Impressionists were doing it in the late 1890s. Classical harmony has always been 50-100 years ahead of us...

  25. #124

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    To all big thank you for your thoughtful well wishes, we have not been able to see him, sadly another stroke, yes a sharp tongue at times, but a big heart.

  26. #125

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    Shit. Poor Durban.

  27. #126

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    Thanks for info.... best thoughts.

  28. #127

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    Wow. We had a spirited discussion only weeks ago.

    Get well soon...

  29. #128

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    Just got this book today, this thread got me interested to know more about Shorter’s compositions and this looks promising. Contains quite a lot of transcriptions.

    I didn’t realise that many of Wayne’s lead sheets are available from the Library of Congress, he deposited them there and the later ones are in his own hand (according to the book’s preface which is all I’ve read so far). The quintet’s recordings do not always match them, suggesting that changes were made in the studio sometimes (not surprising really). Anyway should be an interesting read.

    One way of thinking about Non Functional Harmony-313cebb1-85b6-420c-aa2e-d183764f38e5-jpg

  30. #129

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    lol you can guess what I did next. Unfortunately I don’t think you can retrieve much from this, they are just ‘card index’ type entries. But kind of intriguing to search through.

    One way of thinking about Non Functional Harmony-19c2d588-17a2-4fca-bc40-da4fff114687-jpg

  31. #130

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    couldn’t resist...

    One way of thinking about Non Functional Harmony-bed2989b-50ea-4ec3-8331-49b2e92d2d41-jpg

  32. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Just got this book today, this thread got me interested to know more about Shorter’s compositions and this looks promising. Contains quite a lot of transcriptions.

    I didn’t realise that many of Wayne’s lead sheets are available from the Library of Congress, he deposited them there and the later ones are in his own hand (according to the book’s preface which is all I’ve read so far). The quintet’s recordings do not always match them, suggesting that changes were made in the studio sometimes (not surprising really). Anyway should be an interesting read.

    One way of thinking about Non Functional Harmony-313cebb1-85b6-420c-aa2e-d183764f38e5-jpg
    Hell yeah! Think I'll dive in---eventually...

  33. #132

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    Are there reproductions in the book of those scores in the LOC?

  34. #133

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    Someone posted an original lead sheet of Yes and No a few months back on JGO. They’d be a good person to ask (can’t remember who it was)

    Speaking of the difference between praxis based music theory (eg what resources can we use to solo on a Wayne tune? How can we write music that sounds like Wayne?) as opposed to aesthetic music theory (why do Wayne’s progressions sound beautiful and can we construct a theory to explain this?) I find papers of this kind demonstrate this distinction pretty well:

    MTO 16.3: Waters and Williams, Modeling Harmonies

  35. #134

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    Speaking of the difference between praxis based music theory (eg what resources can we use to solo on a Wayne tune? How can we write music that sounds like Wayne?) as opposed to aesthetic music theory (why do Wayne’s progressions sound beautiful and can we construct a theory to explain this?)
    And why can't it be the same?

    I always feel I percieve jazz piece (or record) from aesthetic pov (non-conciously) and I think it is correct... and it gives very true sense of it as a piece of art.

    And I am convinced it helps with soloing...

    actually to be fairly open and honest - what other resources one needs for soloing?
    One should use ears and find the way to track the way for ears through the instrument.

    Build it all up from the foundation... that is what really great musicians do. This is the only thing they do.
    they listen and build up all the relationships every time again and again...

  36. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    And why can't it be the same?

    I always feel I percieve jazz piece (or record) from aesthetic pov (non-conciously) and I think it is correct... and it gives very true sense of it as a piece of art.

    And I am convinced it helps with soloing...

    actually to be fairly open and honest - what other resources one needs for soloing?
    One should use ears and find the way to track the way for ears through the instrument.

    Build it all up from the foundation... that is what really great musicians do. This is the only thing they do.
    they listen and build up all the relationships every time again and again...
    OK, so you do believe that the formal study of Aesthetics (that is the description of beauty through logical or pseudo-scientific means, such as music theory) is a worthwhile project?

    I would have to disagree. I don't think it is. Which is why I don't think it can be both. Because if it's both you go down a massive rabbit hole of bullshit trapezoids before you have any actual music (see - the entirety of the JGO theory section.)

    I think there is some value to be had in observing patterns, and understanding a musical language, its grammar and so forth. That's separate. But these things are probably a lot less necessary than we think. Direct pedagogy requires theory. But apprenticeship actually has relatively little direct pedagogy (see Lave & Wenger's work, for instance, or any oral history of jazz such as Berliner.)

  37. #136

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    (This is the positivist in me kicking in, but as Aesthetics is sort of an Enlightenment project, it seems apt to critique it on this basis.)

  38. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    OK, so you do believe that the formal study of Aesthetics (that is the description of beauty through logical or pseudo-scientific means, such as music theory) is a worthwhile project?

    I would have to disagree. I don't think it is. Which is why I don't think it can be both. Because if it's both you go down a massive rabbit hole of bullshit trapezoids before you have any actual music (see - the entirety of the JGO theory section.)

    I think there is some value to be had in observing patterns, and understanding a musical language, its grammar and so forth. That's separate. But these things are probably a lot less necessary than we think. Direct pedagogy requires theory. But apprenticeship actually has relatively little direct pedagogy (see Lave & Wenger's work, for instance, or any oral history of jazz such as Berliner.)

    You see I do not believe in pedagogy as system probably... you keep sticking to the topic you are interested in now. Understandable...

    I did not say one should study formal aethetics... it can be taught through practice of perception.

    I.e. you just show, demostrate (generally speaking).. and they begin to see... like with kids.

    I hope it is also clear that when I speak about aesthetics it does not exclude learning techniques
    Last edited by Jonah; 05-12-2020 at 07:15 AM.

  39. #138

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    I think Bill Frisell would make the best teacher)) If he taught...

  40. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    Are there reproductions in the book of those scores in the LOC?
    Not as far as I can make out. But the author had access to them and he does show transcriptions of some of them (or parts of them) to illustrate specific points.

    I doubt he had permission to show actual copies.

    So far I am enjoying the analysis, it is making me want to go back and hear the recordings again. He makes some good observations, e.g. discussing the short repeated motifs at the end of Shorter’s solo on Pinocchio, he notes that some writers say these are intended to illustrate the ‘scales available to the improviser’ or some such complexity. But as he states, in fact they are just based on the initial melody and Shorter transposes them freely. (Must admit that’s how I always heard them!)

  41. #140

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    Sounds good graham... I’ll have to check it out.

    Here is a solo sketch of Iris, warts and all


    So the short improv and some of the voicings are derived from the quadrad analysis above, including a couple of voicings I don’t normally play.

  42. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    You see I do not believe in pedagogy as system probably... you keep sticking to the topic you are interested in now. Understandable...

    I did not say one should study formal aethetics... it can be taught through practice of perception.

    I.e. you just show, demostrate (generally speaking).. and they begin to see... like with kids.

    I hope it is also clear that when I speak about aesthetics it does not exclude learning techniques
    Well I didn’t think you did tbh. Which is why I defined aesthetics so you understood what I meant.

  43. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Sounds good graham... I’ll have to check it out.

    Here is a solo sketch of Iris, warts and all


    So the short improv and some of the voicings are derived from the quadrad analysis above, including a couple of voicings I don’t normally play.
    Sounds good, also interesting how a bit of delay sounds good on these tunes (I never think it sounds quite right on bop tunes!)

    I think you would enjoy the book, the analysis is quite detailed but seems very logical to me.

  44. #143

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    The book includes a reconstruction of Wayne’s deposited lead sheet for Iris, then a transcription of the head as they recorded it. Quite a lot of differences, e.g. the original lead sheet is in 4:4, whereas the recorded version is in 3:4.

  45. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    The book includes a reconstruction of Wayne’s deposited lead sheet for Iris, then a transcription of the head as they recorded it. Quite a lot of differences, e.g. the original lead sheet is in 4:4, whereas the recorded version is in 3:4.
    Any difference in the chords?

  46. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Well I didn’t think you did tbh. Which is why I defined aesthetics so you understood what I meant.
    ...or so that I would I understand whta I meant?)))

    kidding...



    I want to make Iris... I learnt the melody from record yesterday... and I did not look at the charts - but I want to shape up harmonic outline by ear too...

    Maybe then to look for Wayne's chart... I find it fun actually... these kind of stuff - it is like Monk's stuff too, and many Duke's things -- sometimes we tend to imply quickly the general tendency of relationship we are used too... but when you dig better into the tune (not the theory! the particular tune) you suddenly dig that you playe dit wrong.. that small defences matter and they make some other system...


    Actually that happens with traditional standards too with me... I immidiately here some traditional changes and pass by and begin to do something with that.. but then later I come back and when I dig into melody or maybe bass line in original record or other record I like.. I suddenly hear that there are nuances that are important

    I recently tried to comp Summer's Song by Brubeck --- if you listen superficially it sounds just like very general and typical changes repeated all the time... and fucntionally it is in general true... but if I play thta way it will almost lose the identity...
    it will be too general...
    the thing is that in that kind of music the particular solutions become very distinctive ... that is why I say that the chord can become a functiion.
    The functional relations begin to lose their semantic formative role

    By the way some Joni Mitchell's songs ca be very tricky - they may have simple changes from functional point of view but they totally lose the character if I just play them from fucntion - you have to repeat her particular melodic phrasing (articulation rythm, very precise intonation that she has) and often use particualr chord voicings which do not seem to sound like -say - inversions of traditional fucntional triads any more -- just becasue you cannot substitute them with another inversion without losing the character (meaning/semantics)
    Last edited by Jonah; 05-12-2020 at 09:50 AM.

  47. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Any difference in the chords?
    some, but I don’t think they are overly significant. E.g Dbmaj7 at one point in the original, becomes Db7#11 on the record.

  48. #147

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    Yes and No ................................from my fathers collection

    One way of thinking about Non Functional Harmony-yes-no-jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images One way of thinking about Non Functional Harmony-yes-no-jpg 

  49. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Someone posted an original lead sheet of Yes and No a few months back on JGO

    Stay alert, Yes and No


    see my other post

  50. #149

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    ... you might be going off the deep end.

    the quadrad analysis approach or an analysis approach that calls Jazz harmonies... fundamental collections. MM becoming the acoustic collection....Dim. becoming octatonic and even using hexatonic or Agumented .... might be missing something. I mean calling chord scale a taxonomy... implies a miss understanding or at least... missing the basic point of CS. Their conclusion also pretty much states the obvious...

    "My purpose here is not to show specific contextual operations or groups of operations, but rather to provide a space in which ninth chords of these four collections may map into one another."

    Anyway... while interesting and fun... pretty vanilla.

    I did like Christians vid... I like the feel and style he was approaching playing. sounded different, not the harmony etc... just his playing.

    Yea the tricky part of playing Shorter tunes is the rest of the music, what you play besides the basic lead sheet or basic tune and melody.... and in a live ensemble setting. There are usually a few possible secondary and further levels of of creating relationships and their developments.... generally his changes are already a level or two into the "creating relationships and developing them", so generally you backtrack, make choices and then go. Different Tonal target references created different results... His chord blocks have choices which create different results.

    And if the ensemble can't hear the differences or hear your choices... gets messy. years ago, last century I use to perform lots of Shorter tunes, back when the Jazz fusion thing was going on... back when jazz festivals had jazz audiences...

    I'll try and make something... here's an old vid of ESP. It really sucks, a Hip-hop thing... don't remember making it, but from seeing I had a warm coat on... and no chops, must have been cold LOL

  51. #150

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    Might be some crossed wires, I meant something I posted above. I didn’t read the paper. My eyes glazed over when I read the abstract.

    I like the specificity of the quadrad thing. it works solo as well because you are playing basically the harmonic sound without it being - 1 b3 b7 -ish.

    i do find I’m drawn to two basic sounds within it though, though, a sort of pentatonic sound (m/4 no 7) and a major triad with add b6 which goes well on just about every melodic minor type chord.