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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    .
    V I resolution , the Tritone thing ....
    can't we agree to call that 'functional harmony'

    hey pingu, i think this is where confusion may arise tri-tone is Function and can be identified as such ie .

    ie Dm7 Db7 CM7 Db7 is TT for G7 .is functioning as substitute in this case a TT,

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Durban
    hey pingu, i think this is where confusion may arise tri-tone is Function and can be identified as such ie .

    ie Dm7 Db7 CM7 Db7 is TT for G7 .is functioning as substitute in this case a TT,
    yes i agree ...

    theres no confusion about that
    (that i can see)

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    I find it's teachers that get most caught up in trying to understand some abstract stuff so they can codify it. They can't seem to validate themselves unless they figure out how to put that "lightning in a bottle", so they can sell it to others......"this is the way it works"....

    I like jazz because you just make it up as you go.
    If I understand it, part of Regelski’s point is that music teachers are not held to account on the results of their teachings, and perhaps they should be. That goes wider; for instance what is music education for?

    these are questions I’d rather not ask tbh, but they mark me on that shit.
    i just want music to exist because music is great, and I’d like to help people get better at it.

    in fact, my position as a pedagogue is; there’s far too much pedagogy and not nearly enough getting on with it. Really, there should be musical situations and people learn from being in them.

    If anything there’s more of it here since lockdown.... I’m wondering if there’s ways we can extend and develop online communities, because that’s probably what it’s going to be for the foreseeable.

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    yes i agree ...

    theres no confusion about that
    (that i can see)
    i wanted to see if we could all
    agree to call that stuff ‘functional harmony’

    probably not possible ...

    i am not confused

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    i wanted to see if we could all
    agree to call that stuff ‘functional harmony’

    probably not possible ...

    i am not confused
    See Regelski above lol.

    The ‘functional harmony of the jazz fake book’ as opposed to the super aesthetic/classical definition of Jonah.

    And that’s fairly loose around the edges ... but we all basically know what it means. And we know when Wayne goes Fmaj7 Bm7 that’s not GASB style harmony which we call functional.

    if that bothers anyone we could simply call it ‘unusual’

  7. #56

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    OK... I know this thread is about anything besides functional and non-functional harmony, and most already understand.... but just in case some don't....

    I'll skip the Common Practice period developments of "Function" and "Functional Harmony"... If you want list of standard text, ask, or just go to wikipedia and get the short version. You end up with Diatonicism as foundation for Tonal System....anyway Moving forward to Jazz...

    "Functional Harmony" basically describes Chords in a Harmonic Progression that derive their "Function" from their Relationship to a Key Center. (Function is the organization that creates the perception of Movement or Non-movement).

    Chords in a "Functional Harmonic Context", are Diatonic or belonging to the Key and Key-related non-diatonic chords that are Borrowed from other parallel Modes. Modal Interchange Chords.

    Non-Functional Harmonic Chords generally don't have a perceived Tonal Center or Key. These Non-Functional progressions get "Function"... from established Patterns, adjacent chordal Relationships, Root Motion and Relationship to a Melody.

    Usually there is mixture of both Functional and Non-Functional styles in Non-Functional music

    The Functional Harmonic Characteristics are...(and expanded from)
    -Harmonic "Chord Patterns"
    -Cadences and Deceptive Cadences... resolutions
    -Line Cliches, Harmonic Progressions, Melodic and Harmonic Phrases
    -Established Key Area(s)
    -Harmonic Rhythm... Rhythm style, melody and improv or soloing

    Non-Functional Characteristics...
    -Key Areas... Implied, Ambiguous, Poly Tonality/Modality
    -Root Motions
    -FORMS
    -Bass Functions
    -Rhythm, Melody, Harmonic Progressions, Ambiguous Chord Types and Instrumentation
    -Constant Structure Chords
    -Pedal Points, Contiguous Harmonic Patterns...
    -Multi-tonic systems and their reharmonizations

    These aspects of composition and analysis will help understand contemporary jazz tunes...Shorter, Corea, etc...

    Helps non-Functional jazz become Functional... or at least understand the systems which will help with performing etc... or if nothing else you'll have some new Aesthetic and Praxial terminology to BS with, maybe make your playing seem better. LOL I have no idea... I generally just Play... but too much time now. I can actually break all the BS above down if interested.

  8. #57

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    This would be a really insightful direction to go if you could break down the above in some more detail. Specifically, the non functional organisations. Cool thanks

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    OK... I know this thread is about anything besides functional and non-functional harmony, and most already understand.... but just in case some don't....

    I'll skip the Common Practice period developments of "Function" and "Functional Harmony"... If you want list of standard text, ask, or just go to wikipedia and get the short version. You end up with Diatonicism as foundation for Tonal System....anyway Moving forward to Jazz...

    "Functional Harmony" basically describes Chords in a Harmonic Progression that derive their "Function" from their Relationship to a Key Center. (Function is the organization that creates the perception of Movement or Non-movement).

    Chords in a "Functional Harmonic Context", are Diatonic or belonging to the Key and Key-related non-diatonic chords that are Borrowed from other parallel Modes. Modal Interchange Chords.

    Non-Functional Harmonic Chords generally don't have a perceived Tonal Center or Key. These Non-Functional progressions get "Function"... from established Patterns, adjacent chordal Relationships, Root Motion and Relationship to a Melody.

    Usually there is mixture of both Functional and Non-Functional styles in Non-Functional music

    The Functional Harmonic Characteristics are...(and expanded from)
    -Harmonic "Chord Patterns"
    -Cadences and Deceptive Cadences... resolutions
    -Line Cliches, Harmonic Progressions, Melodic and Harmonic Phrases
    -Established Key Area(s)
    -Harmonic Rhythm... Rhythm style, melody and improv or soloing

    Non-Functional Characteristics...
    -Key Areas... Implied, Ambiguous, Poly Tonality/Modality
    -Root Motions
    -FORMS
    -Bass Functions
    -Rhythm, Melody, Harmonic Progressions, Ambiguous Chord Types and Instrumentation
    -Constant Structure Chords
    -Pedal Points, Contiguous Harmonic Patterns...
    -Multi-tonic systems and their reharmonizations

    These aspects of composition and analysis will help understand contemporary jazz tunes...Shorter, Corea, etc...

    Helps non-Functional jazz become Functional... or at least understand the systems which will help with performing etc... or if nothing else you'll have some new Aesthetic and Praxial terminology to BS with, maybe make your playing seem better. LOL I have no idea... I generally just Play... but too much time now. I can actually break all the BS above down if interested.
    Reg..perhaps you can do a 20min stand up routine at a local music school...it would sure be far more entertaining than "diatonic aesthetic praxial" chord relations

  10. #59

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    I see non functional harmony as something complimentary to functional one. There are many devices used in jazz compositions (such as multitonics, constant structures, intervallic movements, so on), that are not part of functional harmony. Guess you mix classical, blues and jazz, you come up with this!

    It sure is a different thing to navigate through when improvising, Wayne Shorters compositions being an excellent example..

  11. #60

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    I think what would actually be more useful is to hear some other people apart from me play on Wayne's tunes (has Reg got a Wayne vid? I'll have a look), and then give us a little background on how they are approaching it.

  12. #61

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    I could, but would you take it from me?

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I could, but would you take it from me?
    sure although you might go, ‘these are the scales, but I don’t really use that’ or something haha

    Anyway that would be the dreaded Praxis.... playing Wayne’s tunes as well as discussing them, showing as well as telling .

  14. #63

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    PS
    There was one air by Bach that actually was almost a sonata allegro form, I will find it later and post.. just would be interesting how you would hear it

    cool
    Christian, I could not remember. I even called a friend with whom discussed but he could not remember too.

    You know it is like l have an image of it, but I cannot remember real music or words.

    I can pick some other piece, or even if you like you could pick something really familiar to you from baroque music in conventional form like concerto, sonata, aria da capo... even fugues (fugue is not form as it is often stated, fugues have different forms).
    It could be easier if you already know it.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    sure although you might go, ‘these are the scales, but I don’t really use that’ or something haha
    I don't know yet, I might. But what's wrong with that?

    Anyway that would be the dreaded Praxis.... playing Wayne’s tunes as well as discussing them, showing as well as telling .
    Oh, you'll get the showing. Anyone can talk.

  16. #65

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    Okay, I'm going to do Iris. Looking at it now. OMG !

    Well, one thing right off is - if you listen to Wayne's solo (very nice) at 1.10 - I'm not convinced the band are playing all the altered chords, or he's ignoring them. He's zooming around too many straight sounds, like Eb maj. When he gets to the AbM7#5 he stops dead because you can hear that's got the #5.

    But we'll see, early days yet.


  17. #66

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    I've worked out what I'm going to do but other things call... you'll have it tonight.

  18. #67

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    My guidelines for teaching chord progression in the style of Wayne Shorter, Pat Metheny, ECM artists, etc (E.D.O.)

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by half-steps, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by half-steps, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by whole steps, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by whole steps, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by minor thirds, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by minor thirds, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by major thirds, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by major thirds, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by perfect 4ths, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by perfect 4ths, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by augmented 4ths, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by augmented 4ths, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    We have now explored equal division of the octave.

    Freely mix any of the above, it's up to you.
    Last edited by rintincop; 05-05-2020 at 02:52 PM.

  19. #68

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    Maiden Voyage = minor third movements, half step movements and whole step movements
    Last edited by rintincop; 05-05-2020 at 02:54 PM.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    My guidelines for teaching chord progression in the style of Wayne Shorter, Pat Metheny, ECM artists, etc (E.D.O.)

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by half-steps, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by half-steps, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by whole steps, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by whole steps, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by minor thirds, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by minor thirds, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by major thirds, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by major thirds, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by perfect 4ths, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by perfect 4ths, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by augmented 4ths, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by augmented 4ths, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    We have now explored equal division of the octave.

    Freely mix any of the above, it's up to you.
    So basically, you are saying there's no theoretical basis.

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    My guidelines for teaching chord progression in the style of Wayne Shorter, Pat Metheny, ECM artists, etc (E.D.O.)

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by half-steps, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by half-steps, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by whole steps, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by whole steps, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by minor thirds, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by minor thirds, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by major thirds, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by major thirds, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by perfect 4ths, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by perfect 4ths, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    Harmonize a bass line that moves down by augmented 4ths, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.
    Harmonize a bass line that moves up by augmented 4ths, any quality of chord is acceptable, it's up to your taste.

    We have now explored equal division of the octave.

    Freely mix any of the above, it's up to you.
    thats a lot of typing man

    nice gag tho !

  22. #71

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    The theoretical basis is equal division of the octave.

  23. #72

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    Christian -

    Okay, here it is. I expect yours soon!

    Background:

    I listened to Wayne and Miles' versions and a couple of others. The vid I put up is Wayne doing a live solo (not on the original). Sounds too lyrical to me to be true to the chords I've got, as I said, but that's okay; the crowd liked it.

    So it's a question of finding decent notes over the chords. I'm not CST but I thought each chord/sound had to be done independently, but with coherence.

    Don't forget it's just me at home, there's no band. The backing is sparse which probably only makes the whole thing rather bleak.

    I used the Real Book version of the chords. If that won't do, or isn't right, too bad. It's what I had.

    you might go, ‘these are the scales, but I don’t really use that’ or something haha
    Not wrong... but I don't say 'these are the scales'. I took what were probably the 'correct' versions and tried them. But I threw some out because I preferred other sounds in context.

    The Fm11 ought to be Dorian, I suppose, but I went for Aeolian because it was softer. I thought Dorian was harsh, at least the way I played it.

    The EM7#11 ought to be Lydian but I used C# mel because I preferred it. Likewise the GbM7#11 was Eb mel.

    I used Bb alt over the Bb7+. All the Db7#11's, again, should probably be Ab mel but I did Db alt.

    I thought about using a C triad over the AbM7#5 but didn't because it was too obvious. So I stuck with an Fm sound.

    Cm7 was Dorian. That was good enough. And the Dmb6 was just a sort of AM7 sound.

    I'm perfectly sure a better player could make something more of it but I do what I do. At least you have a version. Which, apart from its bleakness, sounds okay to me - but I could be too close to it to see it clearly.

    Sorry, you get the tune twice. Gets you in the mood :-)

    Last edited by ragman1; 05-09-2020 at 01:11 AM.

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    The theoretical basis is equal division of the octave.
    Unless the tune is based on that principle - like a Coltrane cycle, all you’ve said is that the roots of the chords move by intervals.

    Again, I feel that actually checking out a lot of music by certain composers will reveal preferences for certain moves, conscious or unconscious.

    Obvious example, Wayne really likes alternating a m7 chord with a maj7#11 a semitone higher.

    So a ‘stamp collector’ approach can be more useful than a theorist approach.

    my hunch anyway.

    Back to the same thing... learn a lot of tunes

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Christian -

    Okay, here it is. I expect yours soon!

    Background:

    I listened to Wayne and Miles' versions and a couple of others. The vid I put up is Wayne doing a live solo (not on the original). Sounds too lyrical to me to be true to the chords I've got, as I said, but that's okay; the crowd liked it.

    So it's a question of finding decent notes over the chords. I'm not CST but I thought each chord/sound had to be done independently, but with coherence.

    Don't forget it's just me at home, there's no band. The backing is sparse which probably only makes the whole thing rather bleak.

    I used the Real Book version of the chords. If that won't do, or isn't right, too bad. It's what I had.



    Not wrong... but I don't say 'these are the scales'. I took what were probably the 'correct' versions and tried them. But I threw some out because I preferred other sounds in context.

    The Fm11 ought to be Dorian, I suppose, but I went for Aeolian because it was softer. I thought Dorian was harsh, at least the way I played it.

    The EM7#11 ought to be Lydian but I used C# mel because I preferred it. Likewise the GbM7#11 was Eb mel.

    I used Bb alt over the Bb7+. All the Db7#11's, again, should probably be Ab mel but I did Db alt.

    I thought about using a Db triad over the AbM7#5 but didn't because it was too obvious. So I stuck with an Fm sound.

    Cm7 was Dorian. That was good enough. And the Dmb6 was just a sort of AM7 sound.

    I'm perfectly sure a better player could make something more of it but I do what I do. At least you have a version. Which, apart from its bleakness, sounds okay to me - but I could be too close to it to see it clearly.

    Sorry, you get the tune twice. Gets you in the mood :-)

    Thanks for this, I will check it out later.

    I’ve already posted analyses and playing on two Wayne tunes above, but I will post more if you really want lol. Good excuse to work on more Wayne.

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Unless the tune is based on that principle - like a Coltrane cycle, all you’ve said is that the roots of the chords move by intervals.

    Again, I feel that actually checking out a lot of music by certain composers will reveal preferences for certain moves, conscious or unconscious.

    Obvious example, Wayne really likes alternating a m7 chord with a maj7#11 a semitone higher.

    So a ‘stamp collector’ approach can be more useful than a theorist approach.

    my hunch anyway.

    Back to the same thing... learn a lot of tunes
    I am also for learning through language and idioms.
    I studies classical as a kid through playing and listening to turnarounds - thanks to good teacher - the theoretic things came much later.

    But it should not make illusion of mechanical approach... idioms are meanings, there are used because they mean something.
    At the level of mature mastery - ususually one does not think of idioms at all -- only about meanings, i.d. you compose music becasue you want to tell something about your childhood, or about how hungry you are and want a scrumbled eggs, or about something you do not know yet and want to find out with music...

  27. #76

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    "...all you've said is the roots of the chords move by intervals."
    Yes, basically that's it. It's so simple it's hard to accept sometimes. It is liberating. The chord quality is up to the artist's intuition and taste, his experience. It's a creative process, involving the freedom to explore, not a theoretical construct. Have you tried it? As soon as you reduce it to guidelines like what chords Wayne Shorter tends to like you are making it somewhat pedantic and squashing the creative exploration.

  28. #77

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    reading some comments reveals several are way way ............................. out of their depth.

  29. #78

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    Wayne Shorter and the Real Book are not related.

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by marvinvv
    reading some comments reveals several are way way ............................. out of their depth.
    Why don't you enlighten us and contribute something instead of just sitting there and lazily calling out others that you perceive to be beneath you?

  31. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1

    thanks rag...good stuff

    ever since I heard McLaughlin play a steel string acustic on My Goals Beyond..I prefer that sound/feel on slow tempo " oblique jazz" tunes ..

    you capture that feel very well..

    scales/chords be dammed !!

  32. #81

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    I used to think that when musicians spoke of "function" they must have meant what I heard as change, motion, orientation, shape, posture, etc. attempting description of the aurally perceived uniqueness of the sounds of all possible harmonies globally with respect to the tonic or locally among each other. I noticed only a few had been named, but took the word to extend to all of them, because they all sounded different in their sense of "pressure" and "direction" and other more subtle things...

    Later I was disappointed that function classifies relatively few of these different wonderful sounds into a small set of group labels, including a majority exclusion group. I have not worried about function since then - it can't offer or approach the harmonic resolution that actually comprises music.

  33. #82

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    Hey Pauln... Function is an incredible tool for performing, composing, arranging etc...Those three little labels are just general catorgories. Keeping it short.... shorter, The trick I was taught about using Function... from Contempory Composers, (I've studied with a lot), as well as with Jazz players whom compose lots of tunes...anyway is to use Function, or organized labels for the power of harmonic movement, as just another tool, to help organize what your playing or composing. Function opens a huge door of subs... which in turn creates more options for creating relationships and developing them..... So the trick is to understand what's under those three little labels, and how to...Expand Functional Relationships through the use of other harmonic organization. I mean the obvious are... Blues, Blue Notes, Modal concepts, MM, Harmonic Rhythm yada yada... the only limits are our unawareness.

    Get into the SD thing.

  34. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by marvinvv
    Wayne Shorter and the Real Book are not related.
    Thank you

  35. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Christian -

    Okay, here it is. I expect yours soon!

    Background:

    I listened to Wayne and Miles' versions and a couple of others. The vid I put up is Wayne doing a live solo (not on the original). Sounds too lyrical to me to be true to the chords I've got, as I said, but that's okay; the crowd liked it.

    So it's a question of finding decent notes over the chords. I'm not CST but I thought each chord/sound had to be done independently, but with coherence.

    Don't forget it's just me at home, there's no band. The backing is sparse which probably only makes the whole thing rather bleak.

    I used the Real Book version of the chords. If that won't do, or isn't right, too bad. It's what I had.



    Not wrong... but I don't say 'these are the scales'. I took what were probably the 'correct' versions and tried them. But I threw some out because I preferred other sounds in context.

    The Fm11 ought to be Dorian, I suppose, but I went for Aeolian because it was softer. I thought Dorian was harsh, at least the way I played it.

    The EM7#11 ought to be Lydian but I used C# mel because I preferred it. Likewise the GbM7#11 was Eb mel.

    I used Bb alt over the Bb7+. All the Db7#11's, again, should probably be Ab mel but I did Db alt.

    I thought about using a Db triad over the AbM7#5 but didn't because it was too obvious. So I stuck with an Fm sound.

    Cm7 was Dorian. That was good enough. And the Dmb6 was just a sort of AM7 sound.

    I'm perfectly sure a better player could make something more of it but I do what I do. At least you have a version. Which, apart from its bleakness, sounds okay to me - but I could be too close to it to see it clearly.

    Sorry, you get the tune twice. Gets you in the mood :-)

    Thanks for the atmospheric rendering of this tune...

    I'm learning this tune ATM. I notice a strong feeling towards a sort of Abmaj7#9 or G/Ab tonality at the chord the real book has as Abmaj#5... I'll dig a little deeper tomorrow. Lovely melody.

    I've always heard Dbm7b6 as an inverted Amaj9 type thing too. Hear it's a pedal point so the sound is a little more disguised if that makes any sense.

    Once I feel I've properly internalised the melody I'll have a stab at it. The chords are slow, so the challenge here comes less from making the changes (as it does in some other Wayne tunes) and more from playing compelling melody ... but then that's true of any ballad I guess...

  36. #85

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    Appreciate your encouragement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Get into the SD thing.
    Scale Degree? Subdominant? Social Distancing?

  37. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    I used to think that when musicians spoke of "function" they must have meant what I heard as change, motion, orientation, shape, posture, etc. attempting description of the aurally perceived uniqueness of the sounds of all possible harmonies globally with respect to the tonic or locally among each other. I noticed only a few had been named, but took the word to extend to all of them, because they all sounded different in their sense of "pressure" and "direction" and other more subtle things...

    Later I was disappointed that function classifies relatively few of these different wonderful sounds into a small set of group labels, including a majority exclusion group. I have not worried about function since then - it can't offer or approach the harmonic resolution that actually comprises music.
    Hi pauln,

    I think it is not quite correct even in concern of traditional classical functionality. Or maybe I misunderstand your post.

    I will try to make a post today demostrating function in classical music in the most essential sense (not as terminology but as living vivid tool - that was actually a basis for one of the most exquisite and elaborated artistic languages.

    Besides classical to me 'function' can be anything that obtains a more general structural quality. As I said somewhere above - one particular chord (like Cmaj7 for example) can become a particular 'function', a turnaround can become a function (as ii-V often is in jazz) --- in specific contextual relationship.
    Function is always some sort (even minimum) of abstraction... a bit more than 'what sounds right now.' A generalization.

    In tradtional painting there can be for example different composiotional elements - like background and foreground (just as an example) and they can be expressed through different elements (figures, landscapes etc.) and techniques (light, perspectives of different types, colours etc.): so in that case background will be 'function' and the elements will be particular 'sounds/chords/intervals'.
    Note that it does not exclude personal meaning and value of particular figure or element of course -- on the contrary - they can be functioning on their level too.. this is what makes subtlty and complexity of artstic language.
    Last edited by Jonah; 05-07-2020 at 02:27 AM.

  38. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Thanks for the atmospheric rendering of this tune...

    I'm learning this tune ATM. I notice a strong feeling towards a sort of Abmaj7#9 or G/Ab tonality at the chord the real book has as Abmaj#5... I'll dig a little deeper tomorrow. Lovely melody.

    I've always heard Dbm7b6 as an inverted Amaj9 type thing too. Hear it's a pedal point so the sound is a little more disguised if that makes any sense.

    Once I feel I've properly internalised the melody I'll have a stab at it. The chords are slow, so the challenge here comes less from making the changes (as it does in some other Wayne tunes) and more from playing compelling melody ... but then that's true of any ballad I guess...
    Getting the timing on the tune's a bit tricky.

    Is that a Dbm7 or just a Dbm (with a b6)? I think mb6's are generally considered as inversions of a M7. So if you had a normal Dbm6 at the 9th - 9x899x - and dropped the Bb to A, voila, it's an AM7/C#. Which means it takes A major or C# harmonic minor. But I ended up playing F# Dorian over it (because the notes of the melody are more like that) so who knows?

    As you say, making something of it improv-wise is the thing.

  39. #88

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    Or A Lydian (which is F# dorian anyway)

    So everyone uses x 4 7 4 5 x which is like your cliche ‘modern chord’ haha

  40. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Hi pauln,

    I think it is not quite correct even in concern of traditional classical functionality. Or maybe I misunderstand your post.

    I will try to make a post today demostrating function in classical music in the most essential sense (not as terminology but as living vivid tool - that was actually a basis for one of the most exquisite and elaborated artistic languages.

    Besides classical to me 'function' can be anything that obtains a more general structural quality. As I said somewhere above - one particular chord (like Cmaj7 for example) can become a particular 'function', a turnaround can become a function (as ii-V often is in jazz) --- in specific contextual relationship.
    Function is always some sort (even minimum) of abstraction... a bit more than 'what sounds right now.' A generalization.

    In tradtional painting there can be for example different composiotional elements - like background and foreground (just as an example) and they can be expressed through different elements (figures, landscapes etc.) and techniques (light, perspectives of different types, colours etc.): so in that case background will be 'function' and the elements will be particular 'sounds/chords/intervals'.
    Note that it does not exclude personal meaning and value of particular figure or element of course -- on the contrary - they can be functioning on their level too.. this is what makes subtlty and complexity of artstic language.
    While that sounds fascinating,
    I don’t think we are really interested in the classical definition for the purposes of this thread.

    Which does rather raise the question ‘what is (and isn’t) a functional progression in jazz? And what’s lazy shorthand?

    I think what jazz musicians mean by functional is that the music has some sort of easily identifiable cadential motion.

    this crops up in Wayne tunes of course.

  41. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    While that sounds fascinating,
    I don’t think we are really interested in the classical definition for the purposes of this thread.

    Which does rather raise the question ‘what is (and isn’t) a functional progression in jazz? And what’s lazy shorthand?

    I think what jazz musicians mean by functional is that the music has some sort of easily identifiable cadential motion.

    this crops up in Wayne tunes of course.
    I would not speak on behalf of other people...

    What I offered was not 'classical definition'... it is more general idea of function in any artistic system. that is why I offered comparison with painting.

    Cadential motions mark the momemts of form but function is more general idea.

    Of course you can call function anything you like - but it is nice when the term has some relevence to its direct meaning... function is - in brief - purposes - in music or other arts it is connected the purposes are in the contents (one cannot discuss functions without understanding contents)...
    the contents is vast: from you want it softer or louder, or morw quiet more anxious to you speak about God, Love, your hometown - whaever...

    Like...
    There are functions in the factory, and there are positions that are involved in relization of those fucntions, and persons who occupy positions.

    In music it is basiclaly the same
    Last edited by Jonah; 05-07-2020 at 04:58 AM.

  42. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    So everyone uses x 4 7 4 5 x which is like your cliche ‘modern chord’ haha
    I didn't know that. Seems okay. Easy to get to from x4546x.
    Last edited by ragman1; 05-07-2020 at 09:55 AM.

  43. #92

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    Don’t know what I was thinking with that Abmaj7#9 thing listening again today...

  44. #93

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    Here’s an initial Jordan Klemons style approach to this. I’m doing his thing of taking the melody notes and extending the chords up to them. That’s why bar 1 is Fm9 here, not Fm11. The melody note is the extension used in all these voicings, hence the difference with the real book. They don’t necessary represent the way Herbie for instance voiced them.

    once that’s done, I unpack the appropriate major or minor triad, and add a tension tone, usually a note from the seventh chord not represented in the triad.
    Attached Images Attached Images One way of thinking about Non Functional Harmony-7e9cbdc6-f565-4f0c-bfbc-ff24d2cf07d2-jpg 

  45. #94

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    Actually a D triad with an added 4 might be better in bar 14

  46. #95

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    I think this song is in a bluesy C minor with some references to Db half whole.

    Your mileage may vary.

  47. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Don’t know what I was thinking with that Abmaj7#9 thing listening again today...
    No... :-)

    I'd have to hear the JK thing before passing judgement

  48. #97

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    Or just play a Dbm and to hell with it

  49. #98

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    Although your scale choices suggest you hear it more in Fm, Rag.

  50. #99

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    So, a couple of points of comparison with other Wayne tunes I know.

    Again, like Deluge we have this Db7#11 to Fm resolution. This is really not that strange in terms of standards harmony.

    This resolution is actually very old fashioned (like 20s/30s). I think Wayne likes it because it harmonises the b5 of the blues scale... so here I’m tending to think of Fm as the key now.

    I hear Wayne thinking of a link between that Bb7 and the Db7. Diminished symmetry.

    The melody that descends from the b9 of Bb7 could be thought of the Db7 Lydian Dominant, but Wayne has a lot of form using the diminished scale and symmetry so I reckon that’s what it is. It also fits both the Bb7 and Db7 chord. But he does use the b13 on Bb7 which is more consistent with the standard altered sound.

    Again we have this movement - Cm Dbmaj7#11 much like Speak no Evil.

    Move back and forth from Cm to Db7#11 is typical bebop style thing - see Night in Tunisia.

    (The Abmaj7#5 obviously has an intimate relationship with F melodic minor.)

    So that leaves us with 3 unusual chords.

    First the Emaj7 and Gbmaj7 in bars 3 and 4. These are relatively unrelated to either Fm or Cm. They also don’t belong to a common mode. Their movement to Bb7 is also not an obvious functional relationship. Gbmaj7 is not that unusual in Fm but we would usually expect it to move to Fm or C7

    The melody here goes Ab-Gb-F. You have a nice contrary motion with the bass which reminds me of a Inutil Paisagem by Jobim only the other way around.

    then we have this Amaj7/C# or C#m7b5 thingy. As the previous chord is on the same note (Db7#11) you can see this as a darkening modal interchange.

    And that’s all I have for now on how this tune behaves, I need to properly learn the melody and listen to what the musicians on the recording - especially Wayne - play.

  51. #100

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    I can't remember what I did now but in the first post I said 'And the Dmb6 was just a sort of AM7 sound', so that's probably it. Maybe a bit Ab6-ish in the end.

    You know, I've been thinking. This stuff might be money for old rope. Think of a strong but meaningful sort of melody, put some random changes underneath it, and give it to a top bunch of players. Instant hit. I reckon it's much harder to write a really good song that stands the test of time.

    That one may be Iris for Wayne, I don't know. I heard someone describe his 'Dance Cadaverous' as beautiful the other day so I looked at it. Put the changes down and just did the melody on it. You can listen if you want. Complete nonsense, really :-)
    Last edited by ragman1; 05-09-2020 at 01:15 AM.