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  1. #1

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    Look, this is 27 minutes of straight up Louis Armstong Hot Fives ,i really dont expect many people to really sit down and listen to this.

    It is the maybe one of the most important jazz records made , since it really started off the concepts of the way we play jazz today, with a soloist, the way jazz singers phrase, there is scat for the first time and i heard him scat a cross rhythm worthy of tony williams and miles .

    Its also very interesting to note that this famous innovative jazz record has no drums and uses banjo and guitar. For a jazz guitar forum, maybe that means something.

    And now, it also prove beyond the shadow of a doubt how profoundly these Ketu Candomble rhythms, in this case Opanije, have similar cadences , to a very profound point.And , its in the phrasing in the soloists as much as anything. So much , you could almost say its the groove.

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  3. #2

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    Nice!

    I think maybe drums were a problem for recording back then?

  4. #3
    thanks , christian, i apreciete your support . i saw you were a player understanding how the cuban 6/8 related to swing, so you are thinking this way no matter what , and you get benafits for that. not only as a player but as a teacher also.

    im not sure why they didnt use drums because they recorded the hot sevens not long after with drums.

    but , it seems lots of early jazz didnt have drums, jelly roll, joplin . which makes it that much more intriging, these arnt drummer principles, they are front man soloist principes , extremly relevant to all horn players, piano players and guitar players. so many lessons about how we play jazz today are embedded in there.

    christian , i think what is fascinating is, i always respected pops armstrong , but didnt really understand him. once i made these connections, it was like a slap in the face and i get so much more about him now and what he was doing. to have my mind blown this big this late in my life , is pretty phenominal to me....this learning process never ends...there is so much to find out

  5. #4

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    I'm listening to all 27 minutes!
    Thank you for doing this.
    I think it adds a lot.

    As for why many early jazz bands recorded without drums, I don't know the answer.
    But I do know some of my favorite jazz groups did not have a drummer---the Nat Cole Trio, the Oscar Peterson Trio (with Kessell or Ellis on guitar; drums came later)--and of course this and some Jelly Roll Morton and Fats Waller. And then guitar duets such as Pass and Ellis without drums.

    I think one reason I love the Allman Brothers so much is that they had two drummers and although I never thought of it as esoteric or out there, it was easy to listen to for a long time (whereas a relentless rock drum beat can grow tiresome.) The Grateful Dead were like this too (though I never cared as much for them).

  6. #5

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    I heard somewhere the stylus would literally jump off the wax if it was too loud and muck up a perfectly good cylinder.

    But this is a little later, and I think the technology had improved. Perhaps an early jazz buff could confirm or debunk?

    The Hot Fives and Sevens didn't actually represent a gigging organisation. It was a studio super group lol.

  7. #6
    mark , i really aprEciete you listened to the whole thing. i actualy left 3 songs off from the whole album. it was a series of singles i think at first , 78's? i could be wrong.

    yeah, christian, they definitly had problems with drums , i read they had to put a pillow under the foot or high hat if they had one, because the thump was too loud . good point it was a group formed for the recordings .

    mark, from no drums to two drummers , right? the early jazz icons seemed to be able to be self contained rhythm sections from any instrument. this is why the ketu candomble cadences i find in early jazz are mind blowing. i wouldnt expect to see them , the fact they are there so strong absolutly points to a cultural hook up , and these cadences pop up all the time as powerful rhythmic pivot points. like i say , its mish mash compared to the one groove from beginning to end of each beat in Ketu , that groove.

    there is groove in jazz, huge groove, but there are arrangements, change of aproach in the B , stop shouts , a solo might have cadence references that sound like cadences from bravum, ilu, opanije,avamunha etc in one solo .

    in this record , hot fives, the overwelming ketu candomble cadence i found was OPANIJE

  8. #7

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    Early recording techniques..fascinating documentary & some great sessions too...


  9. #8
    nice, jack white is a card , right?

    i love doing direct recording. sometimes you would get a group , get the mix in the studio and lay down 20 minutes straight as a side to a record and then do the other side.

    i love recording that way now. if you do a youtube live in the studio, you have to get it right , live with the errors

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos
    mark , i really aprEciete you listened to the whole thing. i actualy left 3 songs off from the whole album. it was a series of singles i think at first , 78's? i could be wrong.


    ...in this record , hot fives, the overwelming ketu candomble cadence i found was OPANIJE
    I appreciate the insights you have shared about this but I cannot pretend to have absorbed them. Funny how hearing it is one thing---appreciating it when heard, I might should say---but feeling it internally when it is NOT played and having THAT inform my playing...,well, let's just say I'm not there yet. ;o)

  11. #10
    mark, i apreciete you telling me this .

    what i can say is, it took me most of my life to finaly be able to hear what is going on with the cadence in the phrasing of early jazz. i always respected those realy pioneers of jazz, recognised them as the innovators , and nod in agreement of their importance. but i didnt really hear what they were up to until i became knowledgabe playing another culture and it shined a whole new light on it.

    i can hardly tell you, after you listened to the whole thing and say " get back in and listen again". but a couple of things i want to say is, i dont think my percusion got in the way of what was going on. and , i think what might distinguish it from me just jamming with it on bongos , would be that much more often than not, you can see that the phrasing of the soloists are lots of times hooking right up with that Opanije beat. now a swing soloist doesnt play every beat on the "splang a lang" , so if there are a number of times that the soloist on the hot fives , hits that cadence Opanije, even a few times would be something to celibrate and note , it starts to take on a deeper meaning for me

    now i went through a bunch of e mail writings to a jazz critic i was trying to convinve to write about it , i knew him from before so i had an in to broach the subject. and he said he could hear the hookups but he didnt hear the importance of it. while my mind is blown and i cant listen to jazz the same way again.

    maybe step away for while , then check back in down the road and see if it makes a little more sence

    thanks for listening

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos
    mark, i apreciete you telling me this .

    what i can say is, it took me most of my life to finaly be able to hear what is going on with the cadence in the phrasing of early jazz. i always respected those realy pioneers of jazz, recognised them as the innovators , and nod in agreement of their importance. but i didnt really hear what they were up to until i became knowledgabe playing another culture and it shined a whole new light on it.

    i can hardly tell you, after you listened to the whole thing and say " get back in and listen again". but a couple of things i want to say is, i dont think my percusion got in the way of what was going on. and , i think what might distinguish it from me just jamming with it on bongos , would be that much more often than not, you can see that the phrasing of the soloists are lots of times hooking right up with that Opanije beat. now a swing soloist doesnt play every beat on the "splang a lang" , so if there are a number of times that the soloist on the hot fives , hits that cadence Opanije, even a few times would be something to celibrate and note , it starts to take on a deeper meaning for me

    now i went through a bunch of e mail writings to a jazz critic i was trying to convinve to write about it , i knew him from before so i had an in to broach the subject. and he said he could hear the hookups but he didnt hear the importance of it. while my mind is blown and i cant listen to jazz the same way again.

    maybe step away for while , then check back in down the road and see if it makes a little more sence

    thanks for listening
    Im wondering whether an academic route might be a bit better. But I think musicology and jazz praxis rarely intersect. Probably be better off writing a drum book and trying to get it published maybe?

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Im wondering whether an academic route might be a bit better. But I think musicology and jazz praxis rarely intersect. Probably be better off writing a drum book and trying to get it published maybe?
    A book with a CD about this is something I would buy. Rhythm is the heart of jazz. (And not just jazz.) But in lots of guitar teaching, rhythm is not taught well: Four-to-the-bar and Charleston and "uh, mix and match various ones". But there's a larger sense of rhythm than beat to beat.

    Isolating rhythm, starting with rhythm, and getting people to internalize that so that solo lines convey such rhythm---that's the mountain top right there.

  14. #13

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    I would second that. You know I would be up for collaborating on a guitar book based on these ideas.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I would second that. You know I would be up for collaborating on a guitar book based on these ideas.
    I hope this happens!

  16. #15

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    48 seconds in, he's even dancing to your rhythms!

    So the real question is...how did it get there? Intentional? Not sure...but it fits...

    Do you hear any of these rhythms in blues? Jazz being the precocious little brother of blues in many ways..

    I think about what Fats Waller called the "Spanish Tinge," which of course had nothing to do with Spain, right? But really the Caribbean via Africa...

  17. #16
    i apreciete all the comments and want to address them

    first, mark , when you get a chance , try checking out 7:20-8:20

    its the claranet solo , but , listen to the banjo for a second. if im not mistaken, he is playing the exact same thing . so that is an instrument in the guitar family, playing on one of the innovative jazz records that set the trend , no drums, and there he is, playing exactly the Opanije cadence. and then pretty much every lick until the end of the song at 8:20 , uses that Opanije lick.

    christian , absolutly something we could talk about, id like to finish these chapters , but, i would like to be in touch to feel that idea out

    what i can say about a book doing it myself is, i have no publishing contact , any move ive made to try to talk to the educational world is not even responded to . to do a book myself would be yeoman work and then to have to try to shop it seems like guargantuan obsticles . these youtubes get the ideas out fast and getting them by ear and visualy is the way i learned these rhythms . if there was half a realistic receptive publiisher or distributor, id be on it.

    mr beumont, absolutly its in blues and rock, big time and i apologise for not flushing that out more in my jazket youtubes i bring in.
    and great question , how did it get there? im starting to realise i think i could find ketu candomble codes in slave era banjo culture . this is a heavy question , and i ask it all the time, as well as who put 2 against 3 and repeated back on itself syncopated for the first time.

    i feel like its basicly the same people in brazil brought over in slavery as in north america, mostly west african , differant tribes and etnicities , but sharing this pollyrhythmic dance drum culture. in brazil, there was so much slave trade you get huge variations of afro diasporic expresion, and that is the vitality of afro diasporic culture, it recreates itself over and over with a slight beat change, going faster, going slower, and becomes a differant culture each place it recreates it self. the north america, hand drums were banned, but, its obvious, especialy hooking these too very differant cultures up , ketu and jazz, that there are really deep hook ups.

    i always say in the states , it comes out mish mash, it could be the groove, some licks in a solo, a phrase in a composition , and it seems to be a lot , i feel like im barely scratching the surface

  18. #17
    also , mark, the banjo and guitar on hot fives plays mostly the oompa oompa or chink chink chink chink chink . maybe you are like i was, and i always listened to what i thought the drums just going oompa oompa , with some buzz strokes in it. but , now im hearing what the cadence that the soloists are doing ,and puts me in another world

    but that one moment i showed, the banjo plays the opanije like me

  19. #18
    mr beumont, im suspecting second line new orleans march influenced some of these cadence also. intersting this play a funeral somber and then swing it.

    the same thing happened in recife with the frevo, they would go down the street to the funeral regular march but come back up faster and syncopated , a dance was created, they would have competitions to see who could break through and punture the bass drum in the rival marching band , which each barrio had , with machetes. as the frevo dance evolved , they substituted little umbrelas.

    this is also right after slavery was abolished

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos
    listen to the banjo for a second. if im not mistaken, he is playing the exact same thing . so that is an instrument in the guitar family, playing on one of the innovative jazz records that set the trend , no drums, and there he is, playing exactly the Opanije cadence. and then pretty much every lick until the end of the song at 8:20 , uses that Opanije lick.

    i feel like its basicly the same people in brazil brought over in slavery as in north america, mostly west african
    Less than half a million Africans went to the US, around 14 Million to Brazil...

    I think the banjo started life as a slave instrument in the Caribbean, here's one of its' grand parents, & no I can't play it.

    It's usual role is playing lines behind a praise singer, commenting, filling in the pauses but it gets strummed a bit too.
    Attached Images Attached Images Strictly for louis armstrong hot five fans : With ketu opanije-xalam-jpg 

  21. #20
    dot75
    great foto and inormation.
    they have banjos down here in brazil . that is when i really had to revamp my whole impresion that the banjo was a country and western instrument , and nothing wrong with its roll in those musics, its just amazing how our minds get fixed on what something is but its a whole other story.

    and how these origins are shaping what comes down into today even though we may not perceive it.

    yes, the slave proportion in brazil was much greater than in north america . so they have lots of variations of afro brazilian expresion. so , its not surprising that one of them , using sticks, covered some areas that were expressed in north america . all these afro diasporic expresions do have connections . but its wild to see how much Ketu Candomble hits jazz. its got a beat with the splang a lang. this opanije certainly covers some of the beat expresions of early jazz, they even have a beat ,Bata (not to be confused with the cuban word bata that refers to their religous drumming on the whole) , that fits with ballads and slow rhythm and blues ballads.

    mark, any insight checking out those seconds i reccomended ? does the hook up look clearer ? you know you can ask me anything here and i would do my best to help lead you through it. with more attention than if i wrote a book.

    my e mail is at the end of the youtubes if anyone wants to contact me about anything related to these concepts that they dont want to talk about here or if i lose contact here. check your e mail christian..

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I would second that. You know I would be up for collaborating on a guitar book based on these ideas.
    Y'all should check out Joseph Alexander, #1 seller on Amazon (or something...). Written zillions of best sellers on basic gtr stuff - 'Your first 100 chords' may be one (I made that up but he's probably written it).

    Now has a self publishing empire - lots of authors, Martin Taylor's latest is under his company, print on demand / Kindle download mp3's hosted online & the writers get most of the sale proceeds.

    503 - Service Unavailable Error

    Lots of work but if you're doing it anyway ?

    You'd sell a few on here I'm sure.

    Can I have 10% please...
    Last edited by dot75; 07-12-2020 at 01:51 PM.

  23. #22
    dot75, thanks for that information , and someone on here asked me once why i would come on a guitar forum as a drummer.hahah heck, id go on the bandstand with guitar players, get hired by guitar players , ride to the gigs with guitar players ( when i played bongos and congas i played with great drummers too ) , why wouldnt i fee home talking to guitar players about music hahaha.

    and , christian, as you know as i said in an e mail, the impetus of putting the mechanics of business together of a guitar based book would have to be on you, since any hustling ive done so far has not even been responded to which is why i am doing youtubes to make sure the ideas get out there even if there is no payment . and my contribution would go exactly something like this :

    take the progresion of "freddie the freeloader" , and take the bravum bell pattern x.xx. x.xx.
    and play any notes on the bell pattern and follow it with a chord

    x.xx.x.xx./chord chord /x.xx.x.xx./chord chord /(chord change x.xx.x.xx./chord chord /(chord change back x.xx.x.xx.chord chord /(turnaround x.xx. /chord /x.xx. chord /back to first chord x.xx.x.xx./chord chord/

    or, do the chord first then the bell pattern. it can be criative by picking the notes you want to play the bell part . do this slow and fast until you have great muscle memory and it will be a really great pivot point establishing hard swinging feeling

    but the other great thing about this exercise is that , its a great way to get the solo guitar presentation under the belt. how to solo and accompany at the same time and swing hard in the process

  24. #23

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    Yeah I think it’s a long view of this, this will form part of my teaching approach for jazz. In time opportunities may open up as I start to employ these concepts in workshops and so on. I think generating some interest and buzz around these ideas is important.

    Basically - I think this material fills a vacuum in jazz education.

    There are people who are thinking along similar lines out there, but what this gives you is a toolkit. Something immediate that can help you improve in straightahead jazz. This is a problem.

    You go study cuban music, Brazilian, Nigerian, Ghanaian, you have a vocabulary of rhythms that must be learned. But in jazz we don’t cover this in the same way, I feel. We get distracted by harmony. Then that comes the focus of the whole teaching.

    Jazz is more harmonically complicated than Highlife, Calypso or Samba, so it’s understandable. But if you play a killing rhythmic solo using just Bb blues that will always sound legitimate. OTOH we’d mark players higher for more complex harmony?

    why? Well not because people have their heads on backwards. It’s easier to measure. Perhaps if we had a toolkit to talk with specificity about swing jazz rhythms we’d be able to assess and communicate it better.

    for instance - you are playing a 3-2 second line beat with a melody that follows the Opanije accents. That doesn’t work, try playing that beat in 2-3 position. Try phrasing your solo lines with the Bravum bell over ride cymbal. Notice how Jim Halls comping is an elaboration of Opanije.

    That sort of thing.

    with your permission Andrew I’d like to start exploring some of these ideas in my own videos. I’ll link it back to yours...

  25. #24
    well said

    and absolutly , christian, feel free to get what you can , put it into how you would like to teach it in your curriculum, and feel free to comunicate with me and ask me anything about these concepts

    exactly as you said, the higher goal now is to get these concepts out there, and demonstrate how deeply they are in the music we love to play and are actualy playing these concepts and dont know it.

    a lot in the "jazz world" has pulled away from hard swinging jazz that people actualy like if they hear it played well. now that i get these Ketu concepts in jazz, i can clearly see the fault line where the "jazz world " veered away from these concepts , and that is not to judge that , but that is what is. and it veered into linear, odd times, looser, free time or linear time , complicated arrangements , extra bars , kicks against the groove ( have you ever seen a writer who knows how to write in the groove? its so hip , you dont skip a beat and the flow goes on and on), etc

    and, amazingly, "world music" "latin music" became a way to isolate some of the cultures that are in the same concepts as jazz rhythm feel , the afro diasporic concepts from the caribean and south america. but we are made to think they are seperate catagories but entertain classical indian concepts in jazz, and iceland melodies and ambiant atmosphere , etc. this i dont understand, jazz is who lost making a "latin jazz" seperate catagory seperate grammy

  26. #25

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    Yeah. Imagine if some band turned up and played as badass swinging as the band on Soul Station. Everyone would flip out.

    TBH there’s a big young audience here for hard swinging jazz, I seen it with my own eyes. The harder it swings the more they like it.

    they don’t always know what it is.... I played the Soul Station rep on a gig and young woman about 21 comes up to me and says ‘what is this music, it’s like blues but sophisticated too?’

    I smiled a big smile

  27. #26

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    I think people think jazz is wanky alienating music with too many chords and no groove.

  28. #27
    for sure , christian, i dont think i ever played a great up tempo with players who didnt take too long solos , and it is well executed , that the audience didnt apreciete it greatly .

    and like you said, a really hip medium tempo hard swinging jazz blues should reach out to anyone who likes the blues

    the "jazz world" took it to another leval , of course there was a natural progresion of finding new things , but, the critics left the audience behind. people dont really support avant guarde . i played avant guarde n the beginning along with all other styles of jazz, (except the armstrong style back then haha figure that?) and was a cuban fan playing bongos and congas and boogaloo congas on funk bands.

    but you cant build an audience unless you are critic annointed and totaly at the top

    what i really loved about the greats and seeing them pass through chicago when i was younger, they seemed to have a lot of tricks. about how to pull the audience in to their story . they were manipulating it purposefuly not just existential stream of conciousness. art blakeys soloists seem to start out dynamicly and slowly build to a huge climax , with no noodling or fumbling around, or going backwards on the intensity. it was seriously directed and geared to pull you in and tell a story

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I heard somewhere the stylus would literally jump off the wax if it was too loud and muck up a perfectly good cylinder.

    But this is a little later, and I think the technology had improved. Perhaps an early jazz buff could confirm or debunk?

    The Hot Fives and Sevens didn't actually represent a gigging organisation. It was a studio super group lol.
    I've played early jazz (on upright) in venues with decibel meters that would cut the power. It was always the trumpet, not the drums, that triggered it.
    .

  30. #29

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    Cool, striking how close that is to a samba rhythm (and FWIW early samba recordings like Pelo Telefone did not have drums other than some handheld percussion)

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV
    Cool, striking how close that is to a samba rhythm (and FWIW early samba recordings like Pelo Telefone did not have drums other than some handheld percussion)
    i think Afro-Bahian rhythms form the basis of samba AFAIK?

  32. #31

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    Bit late to this thread but fantastic insight in the the Hot Five/Seven ''groove''. I've probably listened to those records more than any others in my jazz collection. Love me some Louis.

  33. #32

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    Fabulous