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  1. #1

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    Dominant subs Family of Four etc etc going to simplify, as this can become protracted

    people mention Dom subs & F of Four, etc all the same kind of thing just a different name,


    eg G7 and related subs Bb7 Db7 E7 i am not putting in extensions as it becomes a big game. However any replies can add what ever they want. what ever can be done with chords can be done with scales vice versa.

    Bb7 G7b9#9; Db7 is Galt; E7 is G13b9


    chords minor 3rd apart you can use over any of the chords, the roots of chords G Bb Db E form a diminished scale
    What sounds like four chords or scales is really only 2 why?


    Tritones are a part of it eg G7 3rd & b7 (B & F), Db7 (F & B), AND Bb7 (D & Ab), E7 (G#/Ab & D)


    without getting too deep really you will see from the note collection that you have a B which b9 of Bb7b9 likewise the note Db is b5 of G7b5 etc

    So what does mean, it simple means these things are what I and others call Equivalents, reducing most common modern scales/chord into a single scale with four different flavours: dom7 scale natural eleventh; then #9 also #11, and then aug+ 5 dom, also a b9.

    ...in essence what seems like four chords and different scales is only a few things that are equivalent, bearing in mind **equivalent does not mean identical, its a SUB. This stuff s really to be learnt and remembered not be used on the fly because there is no time to thing about things, just as in you suddenly need to play F#7#5#9 you play not thinking oh where do i play that.

    Hopefully others chime in and perhaps clarify or simplify further.

    I leave with this ** G7 = A-7 = B-7b5 = CM7 = D-7 = G7sus4 = E7#9,b9 = FM7#11 (not here now)


    love and hugs
    The Easter Bunny
    Last edited by Durban; 04-11-2020 at 04:27 PM.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2
    This post was based entirely on a dream, but now totally awake now, report nothing has changed.



    Apathetic mutinous, bastards, maybe all of you should have married my wife,

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Durban
    Apathetic mutinous, bastards, maybe all of you should have married my wife,
    This is Hall of Fame material. Respect!

  5. #4

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    I believe Sheryl Bailey uses the term
    Family of four quite differently tho

    And I always thought she coined the name 'Family of Four'

    so it's confusing ....

  6. #5

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    AFAIK Barry Harris never used the exact term just ‘brothers and sisters.’

  7. #6

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    As Sly said... It's A Family Affair

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    As Sly said... It's A Family Affair
    Love that song.


  9. #8

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    in C

    Sheryl Bailey 's concept
    G7 , Bmin7b5 , Dmin7 & Fmaj7

    Durban's
    G7 , Bb7 , Db7 & E7

    so someone needs to change their name to something else

  10. #9

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    quadships?

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    in C

    Sheryl Bailey 's concept
    G7 , Bmin7b5 , Dmin7 & Fmaj7

    Durban's
    G7 , Bb7 , Db7 & E7

    so someone needs to change their name to something else
    Dear Ping Pong. i did indeed screw up big time but it was not my fault (i was merely being sarcastic to the media) as **President of the World Jazz community i have done more for Jazz than anyone on earth, and speaking of earth let me come home for a minute.

    I confused my Family of Four with all my Brothers and Sisters, lets keep mum and Dad out of the picture,

    By the way i think cant remember clearly Sheryl does refer mention the subs as Barry does, she goes on with her Microcosmic voyage


    But anyway that aspect things are the same and people use different names for essentially the same thing. ie subs for dominants a minor 3rd apart.

    Good work Batman for correcting me, i need telling off, my wife has stopped that now, so its the silent treatment. hell i tell you.


    whilst on this many other chords can be subbed for each other a minor third apart, not just dominants may do a post on that bound to get the eyes travelling heavenward, not to mention all my parallel planing subs that Chick & Herbie used use.


    ** Pres D. Trump

  12. #11

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    U did a bad

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Durban
    Dear Ping Pong. i did indeed screw up big time but it was not my fault .....
    thanks Derby ,
    where have you been all my life ?

  14. #13

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    Being mostly non-essentials in the workforce, thank goodness we can start drinking after breakfast.

  15. #14

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    Durban -

    I once did a thing with Stella where the usual doms were replaced by any of the other three subs. So the first couple of lines went

    C7 - Eb7 - Eb - Ab7
    B7 - Db7 - Eb - D7

    It worked quite well. Sorry, it's a bit long.


  16. #15

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    So aren't Sheryl's chords just Diatonic Subs and using the II V as the basic reference. A ....II-7 V7 in jazz is usually functioning as a Chord Pattern.... That meaning that the two chords become One Chord. A "D-7 G7" tonic or Tonal Target. (I'll skip the functional organization BS.) Which enables the Diatonic Sub of each chord to become available.

    D-7 and Dia. Sub...Fmaj7
    G7 and Dia. Sub...B-7b5

    "Diatonic Subs"... are just standard Musically organized chord subs created using Maj/Min Functional Harmony.

    They're not Tri-tone subs... different concept of organization for creating.

    Anyway.... so you end up with the four chords as being subs for each other... they generally work better when you use complete chord tones and extensions also with musical organization... Generally using that CS BS.

    Meaning when you alter any chord tones or extensions from any of the 4 chords... the others also reflect those alterations...

    OK... so generally most don't really need.... Complete systems of musical organization, right we just play in small ensembles or contexts and can basically use anything... anywhere. It usually works and we can call it ornamental embellishments... or what ever we want... because we're just trying to be in the moment. We can use tension- release approach, the Dominant-Tonic functional label or even a pedal or ostinado relationship etc...

    So Durban's Family Affair approach to the 4 Dom. chords... G7 Bb7 Db7 E7, is similar.... right, we use Tri-tone sub concept for basically creating 1 chord out of 2.... G7 and Db7 become One chord... and Bb7 and E7 become One chord.

    How you create the next connection between the remaining 2 chords.... Generally if your going to use Diminished organization or one of the approached derived from that organization... you would have also used that organizational approach from the start... or more in the BH approach.... the point being you would keep the approach the same. Personally when I use Tri-tone sub approach... I'm implying a functional organization... and more in the traditional reference... not an organization derived from Symmetrical Diminished reference.
    Not wrong or right... but I generally would use the "Relative" Maj- Min relationship as source for the Min. 3rd connection. So the musical organization world be Functional Subs. Relative Functional Subs... then expand with Modal BS ... anyway short story, the resulting chord tones and extensions have organized possibilities... which are all derived using same musical organization.... yada yada. I know who cares.

    Like I was saying when you start composing or arranging for larger ensembles some of this BS comes into play...
    I could get into the Blue note relationships... noooo

  17. #16

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    The Barry faithful might protest but I’m not sure on a deep level there’s any real difference between Barry’s dominant scale stuff and simply chunking a ii V together into a chord pattern gestalt sort of thingy. It’s the same thing basically. In this area Sheryl and Barry really teaching the same stuff.

    (I just think BH is more exhaustive
    and complete - Sheryl seems to be coming more out of David Baker terminology wise.)

    As far as the BH dim scales go... to be honest I’ve never explored them as much as the linear stuff which is separate by and large (you can go to Barry’s classes as a horn player and never learn about it really.) People get into the BH dim scale stuff right away because there’s nothing sexier than some new scale you can feel and for not knowing, apart from - four new scales you can feel bad for not knowing.

    OTOH I got the most out of ways to make the mixolydian sound like bebop and apply it to every possible chord prog...

    Do the same for the minor 6 scale (Barry uses m6-dim not melodic minor, but you can do either) and you are set...

  18. #17

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    Pace Barry

  19. #18

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    Hey Christian... Yep, I tend to agree, the point I was trying to make.... is to try and use the same musical organization... whatever it is. To help keep your musical approach... or whatever one uses to approach playing jazz,
    somewhat systematic or structurally planed as compared to the haphazard approach. I mean most tend to use a fingering system, have names for chords and know what the chord tones are... or scales and arpeggios, why not know the organization for those terms.

    Anyway... yes... I use Chord Patterns, (of which the II- V7 is one of many), which have organized references and results from those references. Yada, yada... BH uses scales, voicings and diminished scale... anyway he still ends up with 4 dominant chords...
    2 from the maj, the V7 and it's tri-tone sub and the relative min. with it's V7 and it's tri-tone sub...
    Key of "C" G7 and TT sub Db7... the "relative min. "A" and it's V7...E7 and it's TT sub.... Bb7

    presto... G7 Bb7 Db7 and E7.... ( he then muddies up the extensions with his personal touch) Joke. I can stand Diminished harmony... Anyway again just trying keep process organized.

    Basically almost anything will work, if it can repeat and the performer has skills...LOL

  20. #19
    come on boys,

    imagine if Barry had married Sheryl and had a family of four, wouldn't all the brothers and sisters have a diminished responsibility.
    for being wholely diminished.

  21. #20

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    as Reg says.."almost anything will work.." why not expand the "four-family" to include several more harmonic devices for each chord iii7..vi7 ii7 V7 ..anything that may resemble a turnaround in diatonic or chromatic or even symmetric order....this gets to be endless in the ways to use this kind of thing..your creativity drves all the possible ways...more advanced players.. Chick Corea..Metheny..McLaughlin and many others..create progressions..harmonic and melodic constructions..that may use actual chords of the tune..but they may solo over implied harmonic structures-that may be far reaching extensions of the origional harmonic structures that are part of another series of chords altogether..and then they bring it back home..so to speak...

  22. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen
    as Reg says.."almost anything will work.." why not expand the "four-family" to include several more harmonic devices for each chord iii7..vi7 ii7 V7 ..anything that may resemble a turnaround in diatonic or chromatic or even symmetric order....this gets to be endless in the ways to use this kind of thing..your creativity drves all the possible ways...more advanced players.. Chick Corea..Metheny..McLaughlin and many others..create progressions..harmonic and melodic constructions..that may use actual chords of the tune..but they may solo over implied harmonic structures-that may be far reaching extensions of the origional harmonic structures that are part of another series of chords altogether..and then they bring it back home..so to speak...

    superb post, funny was going to do a post, on almost any chord can be subbed for one a 3rd away and then parallel chords same quality structure and get planing ala Herbie H

    ie for Cmin7 play Dmin as well then Fmin add chilli




    .

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen
    as Reg says.."almost anything will work.." why not expand the "four-family" to include several more harmonic devices for each chord iii7..vi7 ii7 V7 ..anything that may resemble a turnaround in diatonic or chromatic or even symmetric order....this gets to be endless in the ways to use this kind of thing..your creativity drves all the possible ways...more advanced players.. Chick Corea..Metheny..McLaughlin and many others..create progressions..harmonic and melodic constructions..that may use actual chords of the tune..but they may solo over implied harmonic structures-that may be far reaching extensions of the origional harmonic structures that are part of another series of chords altogether..and then they bring it back home..so to speak...
    I bristle whenever someone suggests a player is more advanced than another. Gimme a break... different for sure... Chick Corea more advanced than Bud Powell... It’s like saying Debussy is more advanced than Bach. How about no?

    jazz embraces the progressive narrative too much as it is. But you’ll find subtleties in earlier music that were not picked up in later music. All musical evolution is a simplification of certain element and an elaboration of others.

    For instance, the action moves more towards colours... movement becomes less important. But then music loses some of its drive.

    Bop driven by a restless urge to resolve is connected to rhythm. Playing intervallic stuff all the time which can end up with lines being arpeggiated voicings can rob music of its momentum.

    I don’t think it’s necessary, but it’s something to look out for. You got to balance the horizontal and the vertical. Harmony is not separate from rhythm. (And no I’m not a huge Debussy fan haha. I like Ravel.)
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-26-2020 at 06:53 PM.

  24. #23

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    How about some examples that involve sounds and not words? This covers the half-step rules and then moves into how the half-step rules actually sound when using each of the brothers and sisters. Really cool.


  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Durban
    ...bearing in mind **equivalent does not mean identical, its a SUB. This stuff s really to be learnt and remembered not be used on the fly because there is no time to thing about things...
    We need more words to describe pairs of chords.

    "Identical" has to mean "the same pitches", so the identical relationship is trivial.

    "Equivalent" has to mean the pitches are not identical, but some attribute of sameness is present... but is that equivalence a relationship between the chords (formal similarity) or between the chords and the harmony of the progression (interchangeable)? If the former, what of two chords that qualify as equivalent with regard to each other, but within the context of a tune only one of them sounds right and the other is clearly wrong? If the latter, what of two chords that are nicely interchangeable within a song, but they are clearly not equivalent with respect to each other? In other words, can a chord be a sub of another chord generally, or only specifically with regard to a harmonic context?

    Try playing some chords of a tune in reverse, or a song where they attempt to reverse. For example:

    I69 | bIIaug | iim7 | bIIIaug | iiim7 | then reverse iiim7 | bIIIaug | iim7 | bIIaug | I69

    Notice the problem with the penultimate chord bIIaug? It does not work descending, needs to be bII9b5, right? Likewise, bII9b5 does not works as the second chord ascending, needs to be bIIaug, right? What, and how much, can be said of these two chords before and after they have been placed in context?

  26. #25

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    [QUOTE=christianm77;1027981]I bristle whenever someone suggests a player is more advanced than another. Gimme a break... different for sure... Chick Corea more advanced than Bud Powell... It’s like saying Debussy is more advanced than Bach. How about no?

    I did not suggest the players I named are more advanced than others...thus my inclusion of "and many others"

    I can see why the term advanced may bring the better than analagy into view..not my intention at all...I was thinking of the projects that the three musicians I named created a style of music that was and to me still is advanced/progressive..the terms dont fully describe the entire field of work of each musician ..as Bud Powell and others were advanced in their day...

    and on it goes...Miles Davis was not a better player than some others but he was an innovator and brought jazz-a term he did not like- to different places.several times in his career..and
    brought along young and super talented players like Corea and McLaughlin and others...who in turn expanded in the world of fusion and beyond

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    We need more words to describe pairs of chords.

    "Identical" has to mean "the same pitches", so the identical relationship is trivial.

    "Equivalent" has to mean the pitches are not identical, but some attribute of sameness is present... but is that equivalence a relationship between the chords (formal similarity) or between the chords and the harmony of the progression (interchangeable)? If the former, what of two chords that qualify as equivalent with regard to each other, but within the context of a tune only one of them sounds right and the other is clearly wrong? If the latter, what of two chords that are nicely interchangeable within a song, but they are clearly not equivalent with respect to each other? In other words, can a chord be a sub of another chord generally, or only specifically with regard to a harmonic context?

    Try playing some chords of a tune in reverse, or a song where they attempt to reverse. For example:

    I69 | bIIaug | iim7 | bIIIaug | iiim7 | then reverse iiim7 | bIIIaug | iim7 | bIIaug | I69

    Notice the problem with the penultimate chord bIIaug? It does not work descending, needs to be bII9b5, right? Likewise, bII9b5 does not works as the second chord ascending, needs to be bIIaug, right? What, and how much, can be said of these two chords before and after they have been placed in context?
    OK this is my basic distinction between bridging chords and cadential chords. The latter is strictly directional.

    we might get both

    Cm7 Dbo7 Dm7
    and
    Dm7 Dbo7 Cm7

    but not
    Bbmaj7 F7 Cm7

    both types can function as passing or movement chords

    that Bbo7 Bo7/Baug Cm7 is directional unlike Cm7 Dbo7 Dm7 and that’s interesting, although Jobim used it backwards

  28. #27
    Enid Blyton was the first to create the Family of four scenario, in the Famous Five,

    orig just Julian, Dick, Anne and Georgina (George) – later Augmented to include their dog Timmy.





  29. #28

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    Four man band - TVTropes

    Four-Man Band - TV Tropes

    only sane man - V7
    the smart guy - bII7
    the Casanova - bVII7
    The Butt monkey- III7

  30. #29
    cool, .my son showed Phone Shop dark witty, comedy, set up your way London, i think you would enjoy, superb acting. channel4, it old now but brilliant,

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Durban
    This post was based entirely on a dream, but now totally awake now, report nothing has changed.



    Apathetic mutinous, bastards, maybe all of you should have married my wife,

  32. #31
    yes Tal brill, that guitars sounds too much, may have my hands professionally stretched, or bits sewn on, a 19" scale length, i may outTal Tal, then awaken,


    oh boy Tal always swinging always melodic

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Durban
    cool, .my son showed Phone Shop dark witty, comedy, set up your way London, i think you would enjoy, superb acting. channel4, it old now but brilliant,
    never checked it.... I hear good things...