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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    ... In general I often compare music with literature... it is maybe true that meusi is more abstract (but also lately I began to feel a bit strange to speak about music and linterature in abstracy .. there is no music as it is.. there is music odf Schubert, Mozart, Wes or Bird... I mean that to be real the idea should be realized in practice and it is being realized in so many different ways that to speak of it as of just general 'music' begins to lose sense to me... or at least I should be very cautious with it)....
    Basically, music is there only if it can be heard.
    To be heard, it must be performed.
    Hearing it internally is almost there, but not good enough.
    If what you hear internally is good enough, eventually you will hum, whistle, sing, or play.
    Only then it will become real music.
    (Dancing about it is only circumstantial evidence.)

    If you are comparing music to literature, you should not compare it to novels, or stories.
    Music is comparable to plays and related forms.
    You can enjoy reading them, but they come to life only when performed.

    Performance does not have to be in front of live audience, or in real time, but can always be improvised, regardless.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    if you are in a solo , and want to break away from rote lines and the same old same old ,look back at the drummer and play to and with him

    this act automaticly brings you into the moment , in to communication with your band mates.

    all the study of lines and theory and muscle retention , has to be regulated to intuition and its about what exactly is going on in the moment with your team and the audience watching

    these ideas are suposed to be flowing out in the moment based on your study and discipline, not thought about in the moment . they are executed in the flow under fire automaticly.

    like you worked on your jump shot over and over but on the court , its got to be automatic and in real time with action going on around you

    this is also where you find you have to discard 70 percent what you worked on because it doesnt fit live hahaha it happens to me ,oh man did i have the into the future fast licks on the drums i worked on with my muted set, i get to the studio its way over played , i cant really follow my ideas , i have to go back to the drawing board, sometimes in the moment hahah how about that? you have to make the change in real time on the bandstand or the studio

    and those things have a big affect on you....and how you play, sometimes you have to compensate for someone else dragging or not being firm , or you have to find the one person in the band who is really listening to you. lots of times on gigs with just one other good person , i have to lock with them for the evening

  4. #53

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    Yea... the better your technique and the better understandings of what your playing, as well as the rest of ensemble, at least in respect to understanding yourself....and of course the context of where your playing etc... the better you'll become at playing.

    1) Understand yourself
    2) Technique
    3) Understandings of what your playing... All versions, ears, theory etc...
    4) Understandings of what other musicians are doing etc..
    5) context...all the 5 W's etc...

    The lick thing...what's the difference between a one note lick or a chorus lick.

    And the auto pilot performance being in the moment thing... You can be in the moment, the past and in the future...all the time. The only one you have control of is where you might go...

    The walking, chewing gum and knowing where your going...is relative. Perfection to one is mediocre to another and conversely. Yes bonsritmos... I agree with you, there are levels of locking in. But locking in is one of those basic requirements...

    If the music is just a job, where only a certain level is required.... is that level perfection. Or if one pulls off something magical, (at least that's what they think, feel ), is that perfection. What's the measuring stick.

    Personally... I just still love music, love performing, love the interaction with musicians and the audience.
    yea... personal hangup.

  5. #54

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    Been listening to some fine jazz playing today. I've decided to assume all of it was composed, or at least sketched out, before hand. It hasn't diminished the enjoyment at all. In fact, I've found myself paying more attention to the notes and lines, as this perspective suggests to me the players have also spent a lot more time considering those notes and lines than I had assumed previously.

    Tomorrow I shall likely revert to believing they are demi-gods with impossibly good improvising skills.

    But it's been an interesting mind-experiment.

  6. #55

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    LOL... isn't that the point, both approaches and many more work. Is it the process or the result? Again Both.

  7. #56

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    If you are comparing music to literature, you should not compare it to novels, or stories.
    Music is comparable to plays and related forms.
    You can enjoy reading them, but they come to life only when performed.
    I think those are bit different prospective.. performance of course is a part of music - even totally written out.


    But in concern of contents...
    For example 19th century symphony is in general a novel in music as a form...
    they even coincide in time... those were the days when novel flourished and symphony achieved its prime too.

  8. #57

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    And Russians were great at both? :-)

  9. #58

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    I played an outdoor benefit show one evening and afterwards was approached by two women who said they wanted to steal me away for their band; one was a singer and the other was a pianist, saying they had never heard a guitarist play like I do. When I receive compliments, I typically modestly mention that I've had my guitar a long time, that it is quite nice and special, and pretty much it feels like it plays itself.

    Before I could say that, the pianist continued, "It's that you never make any mistakes."

    I asked, "How would you know? I play everything by ear and make it up as I'm playing."

    The singer replied, "But it always sounds like the right notes."

    I think of music as an illusion; which comprises the illusions of perfection but also the illusions of tradition, authenticity, style, mood, feeling, expression, etc... which are evoked by deliberate subtle "imperfections" of timing, phrasing, articulation, and suggestive slight anomalies of harmony and melody.

    My prime focus is always how I think the audience hears it and how much they like it.

    The only real imperfection in music is the mistake of spoiling their illusion.

  10. #59

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    "The only real mistake in music is the mistake of spoiling their illusion."

    Bingo! We have a winner!

  11. #60

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    Karl Otto Götz was a painter. He died 2017 at very old age.

    K.O. Götz developed a painting technique that was very similar to improvising music. But he also found out quickly about the problems of it. Like certain patterns that seemed to emerge from his body, his "muscle memory", his subconsciousness "leading his movements" and a lot of other restraining stuff.

    He spent years of his long life to explore that and to find solutions. Being an art professor he tried to get to the core of it and to define what he recognized as the problem(s) and also how he thought one could overcome them. If you bother reading about it, take his 1-2-3 method as one example.

    He is kind of an hero to me, as his paintings (not all but most of them) are visualization of what I feel making (improvised) music.

    So, as a conclusion, to anybody being concerned about perfection vs. chance vs. risk vs. spontaneity vs. ad hoc creation, improvisation, etc, etc... I recommend reading about K.O.Götz, see his paintings - online or in a museum if possible.

    Maybe you'll find something in it like I did and still do.

    Karl Otto Gotz - Wikipedia


    PS.. Good source are the catalogs of his exhibitions. I have some here in paper print, but some are also online or downloadable.

    PPS: Unfortunately the Wiki article is very poorly written as I just now realize. Only this short chapter handles the most important phase of his work:

    As Götz moved away from clearly defined forms, his approach to painting became more dynamic. In a technique Götz has continued to use throughout his later painting career, the image is developed through a lengthy, intense process, often involving a large number of preliminary sketches and gouaches. Once the preparation is complete, the artist applies dark paint onto a light background with a paintbrush, working in a fast and focused way. The paint is then “raked” - partially removed using a type of spatula known as a “rake” - before the contrast between the light and dark areas of the still-moist surface is softened using a dry paintbrush.

    I'd be happy to provide more info if required, write a reply if you want me to.