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  1. #151

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    this is good for the speed thread...just when i think i can hang on the forro thing here is micheal pipoqunho doing their thing from ceara . i mean this is like forro meets return to forever. i didnt want to know that this existed, mess with this rp haha , i dont want to either but i definitly am perked up. this makes the cats from sao paulo look slow hahaha ...but this is the thing in brazil, they have these heavy cats from each region that might not get the same recognition as the sao paulo cats , but forro is natural in ceara

    reg, i knew kim plainfeild, very good drummer. i met him because my first gig in new york was with mike wolff and alex foster . john scofeild was subbing for barry finnerty and kim knew mike and alex from san francisco /oakland , where i think he is from . and kim knew some other cats i was playing with , tony cimorosi , bass player. sorry he passed away , way too soon

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  3. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos


    this is good for the speed thread...just when i think i can hang on the forro thing here is micheal pipoqunho doing their thing from ceara . i mean this is like forro meets return to forever. i didnt want to know that this existed, mess with this rp haha , i dont want to either but i definitly am perked up. this makes the cats from sao paulo look slow hahaha ...but this is the thing in brazil, they have these heavy cats from each region that might not get the same recognition as the sao paulo cats , but forro is natural in ceara

    reg, i knew kim plainfeild, very good drummer. i met him because my first gig in new york was with mike wolff and alex foster . john scofeild was subbing for barry finnerty and kim knew mike and alex from san francisco /oakland , where i think he is from . and kim knew some other cats i was playing with , tony cimorosi , bass player. sorry he passed away , way too soon
    That's Pedro Martins on guitar with Michael P. I had a chance to hang a bit with them last summer. I have the impression that MP has extended the envelope on 6 string bass. He plays guitar too. He has, in part, a guitarist's ability on the bass, meaning he can play a bass line along with chords. But, he's added a third element. He can also do that percussive thing at the same time. So, you hear bass notes, chords and percussion all at once, just from the bass. And, he does it while looking completely relaxed, as if it's all pretty easy. I wouldn't be surprised if he plays a bunch of other instruments. I've heard Pedro on drums, keys and bass as well as guitar. Great player.

  4. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Celso Alberti - Brazilian Drums & Percussion Vol 1 – The Loop Loft

    This links to drum loops done by Celso Alberti, who, among other major credits, played with Airto and Flora.

    I have had an opportunity to study a bit with him. This memory sticks in mind. He was demonstrating how to play a 16th note pattern (well, give or take) on a simple egg shaker. When he did it, it felt like the room was transported to Brazil. Nobody else could get the same feel, including some Americans with a lot of experience playing samba.

    He did the drum loops live -- and the groove is exactly what it should be.

    Might be a worthwhile practice tool.
    Thanks RP when I get some to time to actually play again as opposed to sit through lectures on music education theory I will def have a look at this.

  5. #154

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    So, I'm going to inflict this diagram from a lecture this morning, that I thought was relevant to rp and my experiences. It's a Kolb cycle extended to involve the input of others - such as mentors.

    The really interesting thing is where outside mentorship etc can cause a conflict with someone's sense of self - it might seem like you have to almost stop being yourself until you assimilate this new understanding. It can be profoundly disturbing.

    This really chimes with my own experience esp with regard to rhythm.

    About the speed thing-screenshot-2020-04-16-11-04-58-jpg

  6. #155

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    So ironic. Guitarists and pianists ar e often criticized because we don't phrase like horn players,, allowing "breathing space" in our lines. And here you have horn players trying their best to eliminate the limits imposed by breathing....
    Hi, Lawson,
    I'd like to share something that is my experience with sax players based on my first-hand experience as a working saxophonist for many years: they just want to play. By that, I mean, it seems as if they do not intently listen to other soloists/accompanists when they play. They're just waiting for their turn to solo. Yes, of course, there are exceptions-- as always, but I believe this is a very fair statement. I believe it has to do with personality type--the majority of horn players(sax/trumpet) I know and played with were type A plus. Very few introverts among them . . . perhaps outwardly, but never when playing. One of my favorite Chicago tenor players was the late Von Freeman. He was a quiet man who was a great listener. But, when he put the horn to his lips, he was a dominant bull. This is the norm, not the exception. I believe, in our case, this is also the case with many guitarists who are hard boppers versus those who are chord/melody players or accompanists. Their concept of performance is very different. Good playing . . . Marinero
    Here's Von . . . who ,contrary to most horn players, was a listener.


  7. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, Lawson,
    I'd like to share something that is my experience with sax players based on my first-hand experience as a working saxophonist for many years: they just want to play. By that, I mean, it seems as if they do not intently listen to other soloists/accompanists when they play. They're just waiting for their turn to solo. Yes, of course, there are exceptions-- as always, but I believe this is a very fair statement. I believe it has to do with personality type--the majority of horn players(sax/trumpet) I know and played with were type A plus. Very few introverts among them . . . perhaps outwardly, but never when playing. One of my favorite Chicago tenor players was the late Von Freeman. He was a quiet man who was a great listener. But, when he put the horn to his lips, he was a dominant bull. This is the norm, not the exception. I believe, in our case, this is also the case with many guitarists who are hard boppers versus those who are chord/melody players or accompanists. Their concept of performance is very different. Good playing . . . Marinero
    Here's Von . . . who ,contrary to most horn players, was a listener.

    I hear that. I remember almost every time I've been able to play in an ensemble with horn players, they tend to ignore what's going on until their solo. I've seen guys even walk off the line, get in a conversation, and step back up to play their solo. As a rhythm section player it really bothered me. But they played well, maybe lacked something, a kind of connected feeling, but they could play. I just took it as the occupational hazard of being a rhythm section player.

  8. #157

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    I hear that. I remember almost every time I've been able to play in an ensemble with horn players, they tend to ignore what's going on until their solo. I've seen guys even walk off the line, get in a conversation, and step back up to play their solo. As a rhythm section player it really bothered me. But they played well, maybe lacked something, a kind of connected feeling, but they could play. I just took it as the occupational hazard of being a rhythm section player.
    As much as anything else that's just bad stagecraft.

    Is it a wonder no-one listens to jazz when even the band members don't lol?

    Support and showcase your band, even if its a little performative. The audience is more likely to appreciate something they are being told is a 'good thing.' It might be BS, but it works.

  9. #158

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    rp, cool you hung out with those guys . whether its brazil camp up there or that thing you said you were bringing people in from brazil , are great ideas and ways to get next to great players.

    marinaro , absolutly great point and great artist , von freeman as an example. and that is the thing with speed and up tempo . more than most styles, you cant be in your introverted space, only concerned about what you are playing, you have to hold hands, let your bandmates know where you are at . its so important on the up tempos . all these things tie together in that packackedge about how to mount the bandstand to perform, put that up tempo in your set , and i would put a beautiful ballad afterwards like they are joined at the hip . and you try to project out to an audience, or , a micraphone or plug in the board , that i imagine as little people up close listening to me , to execute this expresion inside of me.

    listening is right up there with everything , only dont listen too hard and dont deliver the time , ive seen that too , haha cats listening too hard , and they start following a floater and then the whole thing starts floating away hahaha

    marinaro, i know you have been broaching the subject about guitar players not being able to play as fast as horn players. what about five finger pickers? i played with bruce dunlap a bunch of times, now there is an underrated guy about up tempos, we could go super fast playing quality jazz with danny colten or jim aites on bass, and he would be using five picks . the lines were super fast. maybe multiple picks takes it to another area .

  10. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    As much as anything else that's just bad stagecraft.

    Is it a wonder no-one listens to jazz when even the band members don't lol?

    Support and showcase your band, even if its a little performative. The audience is more likely to appreciate something they are being told is a 'good thing.' It might be BS, but it works.
    I played in one local swing band and the director always stressed that everyone who wasn't playing should be looking at the soloist. I saw a video of our group playing and it was impressive, when a solo started, most of the band who weren't playing looked at the soloist. It looked nice. Large ensembles really can achieve a certain visual impact that complements the music.

  11. #160

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    As much as anything else that's just bad stagecraft.

    Is it a wonder no-one listens to jazz when even the band members don't lol?

    Support and showcase your band, even if its a little performative. The audience is more likely to appreciate something they are being told is a 'good thing.' It might be BS, but it works.


    There is a real difference, C, with musicians in your generation and the older players from the 60's/70's/ early 80's. Most of the younger players I've met today, have much better "stagecraft" and consideration than the older guys. Good playing . . . Marinero

  12. #161

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    "marinaro, i know you have been broaching the subject about guitar players not being able to play as fast as horn players. what about five finger pickers?" Bonsritmos

    Hi, B,
    I started as a guitar banger/saxophonist in my youth but returned ,later in life, to formally study Classical Guitar. I play with 4 fingers p-i-m-a: pulgar, indice, medio and anilo--thumb, index, middle and ring finger. Classical guitarists do not use their "pinky" finger--chiquito. I suppose it could be used, but I've never seen it other than in playing Flamenco chords. Do you have a video example? Good playing . . . Marinero

  13. #162

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    There is a real difference, C, with musicians in your generation and the older players from the 60's/70's/ early 80's. Most of the younger players I've met today, have much better "stagecraft" and consideration than the older guys. Good playing . . . Marinero
    That's interesting.

    I'm not sure I've noticed a correlation with age, TBH. Anything make you say that in particular?

    I suppose music was more revered for being music by people of your generation? Now I think the spectacle & the show is equally important. I find it less interesting, but you have to do it for the job haha.

  14. #163

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    marinero

    i cant beleive i cant find some jazz youtubes of bruce dunlap playing his five finger picking on jazz. and i wasnt doubting what you said, i just remembered bruce dunlap could run fast lines using picks on all his fingers, or maybe 4 of them

    thanks for your info about your playing past

    good luck

  15. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    That's interesting.

    I'm not sure I've noticed a correlation with age, TBH. Anything make you say that in particular?

    I suppose music was more revered for being music by people of your generation? Now I think the spectacle & the show is equally important. I find it less interesting, but you have to do it for the job haha.

    Hi, C,
    Drugs, alcohol, and the "musician mystique"(irresponsible, inconsiderate, difficulty working with others) was a valid stereotype for my generation of musicians. Whether it was Rockers, Jazzers, R&B/Soul, Jazz/Rock, it was a rarity that bands lasted very long ,largely, due to ego problems. However, the ones that got it right made tremendous money and long-lasting careers--Beatles, Stones, James Brown, etc. We only need mention names like Miles, Chet, Gene Ammons, etc.,(drug issues) among the thousands of others too long too list, that were difficult to work with on gigs. And, the drug infused culture of Rockers is legendary. I played with musicians ,for years, that NEVER played straight at a gig. Egomania was the soup du jour. However, I never had a problem with musicians in those years when playing a Classical gig. So,for me, there is a real difference among most musicians today. I call it cultural. I think all generations love music but there are certainly noticeable differences, for me, when I listen to younger players. Many are formally educated, possess outstanding technique at an early age, and learned their chops in school . . . not on the road. There are some great players that ,sadly, are not being heard and I suppose that is the reason for the enormous popularity of Youtube as a venue. As far as stage-presence, I think it is important if you want to be successful in this market as it was in my generation. However, it could be also be defined as biting a bat's head off on stage to create that ambiance. Musicians, to me, are the classic example of the Poete Maudit--the cursed poet. They are intelligent, sensitive, and talented and, sadly, their love is often never returned from their audiences. And, for every musician who is able to make a living PLAYING--there are tens of thousands, perhaps more, that will be lucky to only get a handful of jobs for their laborious efforts--and sadly, some without pay. The beat goes on . . . Marinero

  16. #165

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    Hmm. This may be correct.

    Depends what area of music you play I suspect.

    Some people who are amazing on stage are a pain in the arse to work with. Actually, often goes together haha.

  17. #166

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    Yea... Michael Pip....

    Yea first ran into his playing through Scott's mom, Mary Fettig and Marcos. amazing. Love his big band things... Joco's teen Town. I meet and heard jaco's playing back while was I at berklee, right before his 1st album.

    Like I've always said... Brazilians like to get funky.

    Hey bons.... sounds like that 1st NY gigs was cool... Yea know all those old dudes. Remember Alex (monster) from Lenny and Tower gang, still hang or bump into the gang at home and in airports. Barry... yea too many years... haven't seen him lately, but over the years, yea, He sub for a gig with one band I used to work with last year. Don't remember Tony Cimorosi, but memory isn't what it use to be... with a name like that, maybe from Barry's Italian life styles of the rich and famous.(back when Randy and Eliane were married).


    Yon gotta post some playin things, too much history.

  18. #167

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    "Yon gotta post some playin things, too much history."
    my pleasure, in honor of this speed thread ill post this , some really great Brazilian musicians playing up modal jazz with me , paulo russo on bass,is one of the greatest of all time , sadly passed away a couple of years ago:





    yes, alex is really incredable. i had one youtube ive posted here about my gigs in new york that he really burns, but, since ive down that , i think on this thread, here is another youtube with alex mike wolff and tony cimorosi with brazilian dancer edi and jack joao on percusion.



    there was a whole colony of cats from san francisco and oakland in new york when i was there, alex , mike, lincoln goines, barry finnerty, roger squinteiro , steve gabori , those were the cats i played with and there has to be a lot more i didnt know about. isnt fadis from there? working with those cats for sure you would play with other great players. just the guitar players on that gig with alex and mike were john scofreild, barry finnerty, randy langione, stan simole , all could play, then i was out and kenwood denard came in. just to be clear, most of these guys were collegues not freinds, but alex and mike i have done a few things with them down the years and tony cimorosi we did a lot of gigs.

    yeah, from what you say about your past, there must be more than a few cats we could talk about haha,id like to see your stuff too


  19. #168

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    Hi, B,
    Brazil is as much of a melting pot as the USA: indigenous Indian, descendants of African slaves, Italian, German, Spanish and, yes, Russians. Similar to America, most immigrated post 19th Century for economic opportunity. Their music is original, creative, and rhythmically and harmonically unique. A friend of mine ,who is a violinist, moved there 25 years ago and despite the high crime(Sao Paulo) and frenetic economy--will never leave. I enjoyed your videos. A few comments: the alto player was a real burner; first time I ever saw a muted piano; drummer-like most, was too loud; loved the African dance; get rid of the rapper.
    Nice post. Good playing . . . Marinero

  20. #169

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    Ahhh cool thanks... all looks and sound great... fun. ya Faddis went east early. I went to berklee... didn't like the road, thought I could make the big $ scoring, arranging... and berklee was the place. Then went to LA.. Sorry... so your a percussionist, I was still at berklee when Dennard showed up, yea he moved right in. Who hasn't he worked with. I think he still teaches there...

    Anyway thanks... old days were fun..I'll dig up some vids.

  21. #170

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    i apreciete it , reg and marinero

    for sure , reg , the tragectory you say you are on , and, knowing some of these guys, makes me curius what you are up to .

    the brazilian guys really killed playing that up modal bop, and they are top experts at brazilian culture. the trumpet player and sax guy who you didnt hear play , were in the original spok frevo band that is monster street frevo , the piano player is ranieri olivera who backs maria rita , elis reginas daughter and writes music for novelas , and paulo played with the top musicians in rio , chorinho , samba , and was the most advanced bass player at playing jazz in brazil, for sure is world class .

    mariner, i absolutly agree about the way the drums were recorded . it was a rehersal studio , the piano was probably that way because of drum leak , it wasnt a studio with a booth, and, i hate bringing my stuff on the plane , i used their cymbals, and i have a dream flat ride that is meant to cut down the cymbal overtones which were huge on the recording . my kits are made to get underneath the sound and come up into it, with a picalo snare , smaller bass drum ( i used a 16 inch floor tom as bass drum way before they made those hip gig kits hahah). but i surrendered a while back to carrying things on the airlines so i have to settle for the house kit. but i didnt like the drum sound on this from the get go, but, the playing is too heavy duty to just scrap .

    as far as the rapper , ive been trying to ditch him for a while , but he was one of the producers of that session . he also sings sometimes for a group founded by the bloco afro Olodum group's main percusionists , that play in Pelourinho , Salvador Bahia , and he pulled me into being able to perform with them on some gigs in Pelo , which is some real whip cream on top of my career , as well as he knows more about Ketu Candomble than i do because he knows a lot of the solos called the Rum and ive only learned a couple , i really have been trying to hang around him to cop those rum licks . so i have to break it to him very gently to drop him out of my thing....and truth is , he probably wouldnt even care hahaha

  22. #171

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos
    i apreciete it , reg and marinero

    for sure , reg , the tragectory you say you are on , and, knowing some of these guys, makes me curius what you are up to .

    the brazilian guys really killed playing that up modal bop, and they are top experts at brazilian culture. the trumpet player and sax guy who you didnt hear play , were in the original spok frevo band that is monster street frevo , the piano player is ranieri olivera who backs maria rita , elis reginas daughter and writes music for novelas , and paulo played with the top musicians in rio , chorinho , samba , and was the most advanced bass player at playing jazz in brazil, for sure is world class .

    mariner, i absolutly agree about the way the drums were recorded . it was a rehersal studio , the piano was probably that way because of drum leak , it wasnt a studio with a booth, and, i hate bringing my stuff on the plane , i used their cymbals, and i have a dream flat ride that is meant to cut down the cymbal overtones which were huge on the recording . my kits are made to get underneath the sound and come up into it, with a picalo snare , smaller bass drum ( i used a 16 inch floor tom as bass drum way before they made those hip gig kits hahah). but i surrendered a while back to carrying things on the airlines so i have to settle for the house kit. but i didnt like the drum sound on this from the get go, but, the playing is too heavy duty to just scrap .

    as far as the rapper , ive been trying to ditch him for a while , but he was one of the producers of that session . he also sings sometimes for a group founded by the bloco afro Olodum group's main percusionists , that play in Pelourinho , Salvador Bahia , and he pulled me into being able to perform with them on some gigs in Pelo , which is some real whip cream on top of my career , as well as he knows more about Ketu Candomble than i do because he knows a lot of the solos called the Rum and ive only learned a couple , i really have been trying to hang around him to cop those rum licks . so i have to break it to him very gently to drop him out of my thing....and truth is , he probably wouldnt even care hahaha
    Very good! One point: Spok Frevo Orquestra is the most amazing big band I've ever heard, or expect to hear. They're on youtube. Absolute monsters.

  23. #172

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    Hard Bop with a Latin flare! Good playing . . .Marinero



  24. #173

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    great bringing in that clip ,marinero, i love those guys

    here is "rumpilezz" from salvador under leite leiteres , using the atabaques of candomble. spok frevo from recife has tremendous influence of the frevo horn cultrure , so their horns are really on the money.and frevo is super fast. the way rumpilezz deals with their ketu candomble rhythms is not the same as i do. i think i prefer spok frevo , but i respect these guys a lot

    ive played with about 5 guys from spok frevo, the alto solo there is gustavo anacleto , now in japan , the guitar player is renato bandeira , the drummer , is augusto silva , i dont think is see fabinho costa who came in for sure and a sax guy name kiko who i dont see there.

    i actualy had a gig i hired some of these guys and i could have played "duda de frevo " one of my favorites , but i chickened out, and i have been training my frevo chops. but i chickened out

  25. #174

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    and great you brought up spok frevo rp, i would be disapointed if you havent been checking out my break down of ketu candomble and jazz, i showed the whole origin of the bossa rum click , the same as the frevo snare cadence ( i used augusto silva as the example) hahahaha

  26. #175

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    Hey, B,
    Great clip! Try reading those horn parts cold and getting the accents/syncopation right. . . whew! That's some tough stuff and a great sound! Good playing . . .Marinero

    P.S. I wonder why they used reverb on the flute solo?

  27. #176

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos
    and great you brought up spok frevo rp, i would be disapointed if you havent been checking out my break down of ketu candomble and jazz, i showed the whole origin of the bossa rum click , the same as the frevo snare cadence ( i used augusto silva as the example) hahahaha
    I have been following and appreciating the ketu candomble posts. I haven't had much to add.

    The frevo cadence is one note different from what Americans call the Bo Diddley beat. The next to last note is played a half beat earlier (if you think in 4/4).
    Stated another way, it's 3-2 son clave, with the next to last note played earlier (on and-of-one instead of 2).

    Spok plays that cadence really fast. If you listen to Luis Gonzaga, he often has a stringed instrument (something akin to a cavaquinho, but not the same sound to my ear) play the same cadence, except he plays much slower tempos. Both NE Brazil origins.

    Spok, btw, is more than just a bandleader. He is also a major figure in promulgating and advancing the cultural background of that music.

    And, another point to newcomers to Frevo -- it's also an absolutely astonishing dance style.

    One example,

  28. #177

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    nice , rp, and the frevo dance is incredable , there are some wonderful women dancing frevo too

    this slight differance you are talking about in the frevo beat with the bo didly beat is that thing that happens in the opisite hand in Ilu. it breaks down in bossa nova if you get slower and repqiques in the escolas have a lick to call people that has that cadence in it.

    the heavy thing about recife and pernambuco the state is, it has all this differant powerful culture, all differant than salvador, who steals some of recife culture like the frevo and put it on their trio electricos the huge trucks they perforn on in carnival.

    they have frevo, maracatu rural, maracatu baque virada, coco, pifineu, carvalho marinho, caboclino, forro , baiao, etc, all very powerful afro diasporic beats as the foundation, even the tribute to the native indigenous people , caboclino, it still uses an african groove

    its amazing, you have salvador bahia , a state near by , with a tremendous unique culture of its own, with lots of variations then you have recife and pernambuco. then sao luis de marenhao has its own culture and belem de para has its own culture