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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack E Blue
    Christian,
    This is off the topic of speed, but I'd like your opinion on feeling the metronome on 2 and 4. Many people advocate this. Is it something worth spending time on? I'm asking because I have trouble doing it and would need to devote a lot of time to get the hang of it.
    if you can’t do it, it’s good to practice it :-) when you can do it consistently, it’s good to develop other exercises. 2 and 4 can be a crutch.

    you should be able to feel the metronome on any beat or upbeat of the bar really.... this takes.... months, maybe years. Be kind to yourself even as you are exacting and perfectionist, and look for gradual improvement.

    (I should add that the metronome is NOT everything, some such as Jeff Berlin, Mike Longo and IIRC Chick Corea think that it can be harmful, but I’ve found it a vital tool of diagnosis.)

    It’s really not off topic; The great challenge of uptempo playing is not, to me, chops, but being able perceive fine rhythmic detail and execute it without lag. That’s musicianship and technique obviously; but it is possible to have the raw speed and not be able to do this.

    Putting the metronome on the 2 and 4 let alone the ands of the bar is much harder at 320 than at 180, obviously.

    You should still tap your foot on 1 and 3 at these fast tempos though :-)

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  3. #102

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    Kurt on Rhythm changes at 340


  4. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Kurt on Rhythm changes at 340

    That was great! Kurt was very horn-like. I kept expecting him to break into the theme of the Flintstones, though.

  5. #104

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    Man... that was really rocky. I would have thought it might have been more in the Motown direction...

    Joey is always the man... He and Christian both went to HS in Philly, that must have been fun...

  6. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Man... that was really rocky. I would have thought it might have been more in the Motown direction...
    Nope. Not with Kurt on guitar.

  7. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack E Blue
    Christian,
    This is off the topic of speed, but I'd like your opinion on feeling the metronome on 2 and 4. Many people advocate this. Is it something worth spending time on? I'm asking because I have trouble doing it and would need to devote a lot of time to get the hang of it.
    Pat Metheny does it.

  8. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Nope. Not with Kurt on guitar.
    Are you saying he's a rocker? LOL. I wouldn't put him in the class of Joey and Christian, but I dig his playing. Or a least I thouigh I did.
    The gig is from the Joey and Christian's... Philly Reunion Band thing. Something from their HS days back in Philly.
    I don't remember the story... who cares.

    No relationship to the thread... but nice version of Wes tune... Fried Pies... with Christians trio up in Washington
    I still dig performing the tune...

  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Are you saying he's a rocker? LOL. I wouldn't put him in the class of Joey and Christian, but I dig his playing. Or a least I thouigh I did.
    The gig is from the Joey and Christian's... Philly Reunion Band thing. Something from their HS days back in Philly.
    I don't remember the story... who cares.

    No relationship to the thread... but nice version of Wes tune... Fried Pies... with Christians trio up in Washington
    I still dig performing the tune...
    You know Kurt always has a prog rock vibe about his playing in a Holdsworth-esque sort of way; not that he isn’t a great jazz player. He’s leaned into it the past few years with this more woodwind like tone.

    I just can’t imagine him doing something Motown-y really haha. It’s not really his thing?

  10. #109

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    Cool...thanks, yea I guess that's why I never really finish listening to much of his music. I mean those reunion show gig posts at Blue Note in NY were some of the worst examples of Joey or Christian that I've heard in a while.

    But that's just me...

    If anyone is interested in learning how to Comp.... the accompany thing. Check out Peter Martin's playing behind Christian's solo. That's a perfect example of How To Comp behind a jazz Blues. Of course it would be different for different instruments... but the approach is how it's done.

  11. #110

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    Originally Posted by Reg
    Man... that was really rocky. I would have thought it might have been more in the Motown direction...


    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Nope. Not with Kurt on guitar.
    it was his Purple beret that was playing not Kurt, yeah pretty rocky, the beginning was a joke, after a couple chorus he was repeating a lot of phrases, or re- organising them. I think Kurt is killer but thats was weak, Grant G could easily that tempo. ................................................Hi c

  12. #111

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    The ability to play fast is a tool. It's a tool I'd like to have in my tool box. Same with comping, good phrasing, being able to construct great chord melodies, etc. No need to be apologetic for having the ability to shred if it's done cleanly and fits and enhances the song.

  13. #112

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    For me, a musician must be true to his personality. If you like Bop--great. If your prefer Chord-Melody--great. And, there are a few talented players that have the whole bag. However, if I had an hour to listen to JG, it would be chord-melody since after 10 minutes of high speed gymnastics, I'm ready to move on to something more satisfying than speed. Very few Boppers are lyrical players since lyricism,for me, gets lost when you're strictly playing chord changes up tempo as most, in my opinion, do. Here's Coltrane from his incredible album "John Coltrane and Johnny Hartman" playing "My One and Only Love." There's no way a musician can get this lyrical feeling and sentiment when playing at Indy 500 speed. Good playing . . . Marinero . . . I hope you enjoy!


  14. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Durban
    Originally Posted by Reg
    Man... that was really rocky. I would have thought it might have been more in the Motown direction...




    it was his Purple beret that was playing not Kurt, yeah pretty rocky, the beginning was a joke, after a couple chorus he was repeating a lot of phrases, or re- organising them. I think Kurt is killer but thats was weak, Grant G could easily that tempo. ................................................Hi c
    This I think is truly creative playing on the same prog at around 300:



    isnt Lester’s time just the most extraordinary? How did he do it???

    8th notes can be a real prison. Hence my other thread that no one got lol.

  15. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    This I think is truly creative playing on the same prog at around 300:



    isnt Lester’s time just the most extraordinary? How did he do it???

    8th notes can be a real prison. Hence my other thread that no one got lol.
    Yeah, long strings of 8th notes at high tempos can get tedious.

    I wish I could do it.

  16. #115

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    Yea... nice. lesters gets so far behing the beat... LOL. The rhythm section either stays locked in that straight backing time thing... like on 78 or if your able, (the rhythm section) can also stretch, expand and contract with the soloist. The down side is like on many of Scofield's tunes... the time actually slows down.

    Speed is just another skill as said by many... But it doesn't just show up while soloing. I have Ok chops, but the majority of my technical skills are used when... not soloing. Being able to easily perform at 300mm is not difficult, but that's the point... easily perform. Making music isn't just about locking in and all the groove BS.... Locking in is really just the starting point. Musicians who have their technical skills together...are locked in when they start playing. Seems like too many get caught up in soloing as the point of speed of technical Skills. And maybe aren't even aware of what speed or technique is... Playing at 60mm or at 320mm is the same thing. Understanding subdividing and accent patterns.... and having the skills to easily perform them so your can be aware of the big picture... and hear the big picture.

    When you don't have your technical skills together... you tend to think, (or hear) in the steady 8th thing, or getting that feel... there can be more.

    Best to all

  17. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Kurt on Rhythm changes at 340

    Good god, I have never heard guitar like this! Instant Rosenwinkel fan!
    I must say I gravitate towards fast players, or rather, players with tremendous flow - who can just endlessly and often violently create music in the moment. Like Rosenwinkel in this clip.
    Or Michael Brecker on this (from 5.00):

    ...or Russell Ferrante here (foreword by robben ford is burning also):


    ... or Robben Ford and George benson on this (Solos from about 2:00)


    ... Or anything featuring Joey DeFrancesco, that man is a monster beyond human comprehension...

    I can't play like these guys, and it's frustrating me! In about two months time, I'll have an undergraduate degree in guitar performance, but even my slow ideas are shallow!
    Speed to me, SHOULD be a fire of some kind, anger perhaps? Maybe that's why I don't feel the same thing from Frank Gambale as I do from say Mike Brecker, even if they're playing at the same breakneck speeds. It's hard to say exactly what it is, but I know good speed when I hear it - and bad speed when I hear it - like when I play as fast as I can and it's just licks and lines I know well... Gah!

  18. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Yea... nice. lesters gets so far behing the beat... LOL. The rhythm section either stays locked in that straight backing time thing... like on 78 or if your able, (the rhythm section) can also stretch, expand and contract with the soloist. The down side is like on many of Scofield's tunes... the time actually slows down.
    This instantly triggered a couple of thoughts

    1) it’s always been a challenge to me as the usually sole guitar or sole comper in a swing band as a soloist I can’t take liberties with the time. So therefore I have to play, or feel I must, play very locked in, to keep the time going or the band is going to lose its groove.

    I've been looking for a way to do this without playing running 8ths. Or chords.

    2) some frontline players can’t half drag. I think they think it’s good time to do so, and it sounds more stylish than on top for sure. But it makes it a long night if I’m playing time.

    3) I don’t think Lester is simply ‘behind the beat’ in this superficial way. as with Billie, I think this is an effect rather than a cause. He’s locking into something else. Something broader and less obvious but still connected. And we say ‘behind the beat’ because that’s how it seems to us; we can’t analyse what he’s doing but we can feel it relates.

    Lester as one of the the most advanced rhythmic players of the era, probably all time, had a very specific concept. I don’t know if he could put it into words, but he did start as a drummer.

    I think if you played with Lester, you wouldn’t slow down because his time is surprisingly commanding, it’s not laggy. The way he plays downbeats is very important.

    I feel Dickie is leaning more on the rhythm section.

    That’s my hunch. No evidence to support that lol other than my intuition lol.

    according to legend the Basie band was a train wreck without Freddie so maybe that’s bollocks haha. (Most of the players on that side are Basie men.)

    OTOH Lester cut Lady Be Good without a rhythm guitar, which was unusual at the time (and why that recording sounds so modern for the time.)

  19. #118

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    Speed of itself is boring. It is what is around it that makes it's use. Just like a Set Tempo', or just a plane 2/4 beat Drum Cymbal. It is like you play Arpeggio at different tempos to make a rhythm.

  20. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by JaxJaxon
    Speed of itself is boring.
    Not really. Speed is just form. It's about content. Good playing is always good, fast or slow. Weak playing is always weak, fast or slow.

    And the only type of playing that is really boring is weak playing.

    DB

  21. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
    Not really. Speed is just form. It's about content. Good playing is always good, fast or slow. Weak playing is always weak, fast or slow.

    And the only type of playing that is really boring is weak playing.

    DB
    True! I suck equally at all tempos. So maybe it’s a mercy I cannot play very fast!

    Also: You are making way too much basic sense for this to be the internet.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  22. #121

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    great point about lester , christian and the whole lag behind the beat thing. and you went into some detail on another thread how he is relating to a kind of 6 or halftime 6 against it.

    if a guy doesnt have it together, like you said, its a long night. for me, whether its trying to play behind the beat or putting out some linear lines, its how hard and definite you come back on the groove giving the direction to your band mates and the audience

    some one said the groove doesnt matter on here, i disagree, its everything, its everything if you want to keep it together and have direction.

    if your objective is not that , and exploration is more important , or lean more on sound base than form base, then fine, its differant rules for differant paramaters and its valid. im speaking for jazz that is still looking to keep in touch with the foundations set by the masters.

    im telling you, im doing these ketu condomble things over all this early jazz , lots that has no drums, and they are so rhythm , groove oriented its not funny. the whole stride thing that is serious power and up tempo in the hands of james p johnson and art tatum, are throwing out phrases that are in a cadence , they keep repeating the cadence but with variations in the cadence.

    speed without cadence, reference , direction, some kind of pivot point in the groove , and a seat belt could lead to a dangerous crash , or a road to nowhere

  23. #122

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    As a former saxophonist, any guitar player(except a rare FEW) that hopes to replicate the speed of a saxophone will live a life of frustration and angst. Good playing . . . Marinero

  24. #123

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    the Kenny was appalling..pity Pat wasnt there .knock some wind out of his sails...my take on Giant Steps with a computer and a sequencer..and a few samples...

  25. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by voxsss
    the Kenny was appalling..pity Pat wasnt there .knock some wind out of his sails...my take on Giant Steps with a computer and a sequencer..and a few samples...
    Hi, V,
    Was that computer generated? If so, the licks? I haven't heard that throaty flute playing since the 70's when the technique was very popular. Good playing . . . Marinero

  26. #125

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    no not computer generated..cant remeber who wrote the part...i sequenced it..quite easy once you know how...retro flute sample added for bite...jethro or herbie mann..doubling up...

  27. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by voxsss
    the Kenny was appalling..
    The Kenny G video is a spoof by the way. Apparently he was playing one long note to show off (unaccompanied). Someone added the Giant Steps backing to the video for a joke.

  28. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    The Kenny G video is a spoof by the way. Apparently he was playing one long note to show off (unaccompanied). Someone added the Giant Steps backing to the video for a joke.
    Hi, G,
    For the record, circular breathing, for most, takes awhile to develop; some never get it. So, some players still use it as a "crowd- pleaser. However, I always found it annoying and not musical. Its heyday was in the 70's/80's. Good playing . . . Marinero

  29. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, G,
    For the record, circular breathing, for most, takes awhile to develop; some never get it. So, some players still use it as a "crowd- pleaser. However, I always found it annoying and not musical. Its heyday was in the 70's/80's. Good playing . . . Marinero
    So ironic. Guitarists and pianists are often criticized because we don't phrase like horn players,, allowing "breathing space" in our lines. And here you have horn players trying their best to eliminate the limits imposed by breathing....

  30. #129

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    Hey Christian... I'll go through your points above,

    1) So yea... if your the rhythm section, playing straight time is generally rhythm guitar. So developing... comping skills implies becoming aware of basic "Harmonic Rhythm" and then being able to expand that basic concept. You can keep "Time", (be locked in and in the groove), and still be performing a creative improvisational style part.

    Using "Chord Patterns", Melodic Lead Lines, (Licks) and Rhythmic patterns or licks.... to imply Harmonic Rhythm "Targets".....) the organized attacks of the expanded Harmonic Rhythm which imply the Groove, the feel, the montuno etc...

    These... "Expanded Harmonic Rhythm Targets" are what Imply and create the feel and Perception of Repeat. That perception of Repeat is what will give you more freedom to have fun... your "take liberties".

    The time expands from, 1,1,1,1,1,1, or 1 2 3 4, 1 2 3 4, etc... and becomes counting or feeling with 2 bars or 4 bars
    units of counting, phrasing or feeling.

    The "locking in" point as I said above, is just part of playing, Obvious, like turning on your amp. I'll expand on in next few points.

    2) Work on your band Directing skills. If they don't feel it... physically tell them. I do all the time, use your Respectful communication skills... it usually gets better. (obviously... you do need to be able to back it up with your playing)

    3) So what's the point of getting behind the Beat? To create a feel..... It's not that complicated. To take the time to notate out playing and analyze behind beat feels, (using triple division and subdivisions), would be an Oxymoron.

    You could... but not many would be able to read... and still have feel. So generally most musicians use the above mentioned techniques to help create longer sections of "time"...to count, (feel) with. Which is what creates that mystical compound time feeling of playing behind the beat.

    The other important aspect of creating feels, both macro and micro... is which attack or beat is implied or referenced by another attack. The On Coming or the Previous beat. (depending on note values and subdivisions).

    And yes... just like other aspect of playing, all it takes is organized practice.

  31. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Hey Christian... I'll go through your points above,
    Ah OK - so you think I’m asking to have a problem solved/advice. That's fair enough given the wording, although that wasn’t really the intention of my post, more to say - here is something I find interesting and I’m working on.

    thanks for the info though! if I understand what you mean this is all stuff I am aware of if not always able to execute to my satisfaction.

    A couple things specific to the problem I'm talking about.
    1) I am not the leader in these situations. I rarely lead if ever lead straight up swing/traddy gigs because that's not my main area of interest. I get called to do them.

    2) the biggest problem I face when soloing in this kind of context is not sounding like straight ahead jazz. This might not be a worry for most, but for the type of thing where the style is almost defined in contrast to modern jazz this can be an issue. When the rhythm guitar drops out and the rhythm section are playing in a fairly straight ahead way (legato walking bass, or god forbid ride cymbal spangalang with snare drum accents) for instance. It shouldn't really be MY problem, but in practice it ends up being haha. In general the solution is to play chords, riffs and avoid too many 8th note lines.

    (In this case even a Louis and the All Stars feel - which is many drummer's reference point for anything not bop - can be ... arggh! NO! Not that shit with the backbeat and ride cymbal. Louis did not have a rhythm guitar in that band and this was the '50s... OMG. Just listen to some drummers of the prewar era. PLEASE.)

    Anyhoo, basically, if you have a rhythm section and soloist who aren't playing with the specific 30s/40s jazz rhythmic concept (Bonsritmos would say Opanije vs Bravum...) it falls to me to provide the quality for the audience and bandleader that will keep it in the stylistic realm and with enough of that groove. And as long as there is a strong danceable groove with some regularity and not just some generic version of Philly Joe Jones comping on a Miles date (because that's what swing feel is, right?), I can deal with it.

    (BTW I'm 200% certain PJJ would have been able to nail this type of thing had the gig required it. This is what he grew up with, like most of those guys.)

    So: the 'behind the beat' stuff always sounds like modern jazz when done on guitar. (As I say, I don't think Prez really plays behind the beat.) But the guitar can't really do that... There is a job of work to be done.

    The fact that I give a shit about the second point AT ALL I suspect is probably why I continue to get calls for this music haha (and I know the rep.)

    In its own way modern jazz is much more forgiving. I think you can do more the Lester thing too... Lester was the future in the 30s, music changed to imitate him...
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-14-2020 at 12:45 PM.

  32. #131

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    By the way - it's so cool I now have a language to talk about the changes in swing feel from the 1920s through to the 50s. It also helps me play that music!

  33. #132

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    Hey Christian... OK sorry.

    Funny...that old modern thing you seems to be talking about always seems rather simple personally. I played Hotel Swing dance band gigs every weekend as a kid. Then back in the 80's, 90's would get great $ gigs in Vegas and other wealthy retirement folk gigs all over the states.... small and large BBs...

    Maybe some have trouble with that straight swing feel.... because you do need strong rhythmic articulation technique.

    I play some up tempo Blue Grass gigs, very similar kind of western swing feels. S-W-S-W.

    Good luck... your great player (maybe a little crazy), but it's catchy.

    Can you imply the feel... playing solo. That's always been my test.

    (blues influence camouflaged)

  34. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    So: the 'behind the beat' stuff always sounds like modern jazz when done on guitar. (As I say, I don't think Prez really plays behind the beat.) But the guitar can't really do that... There is a job of work to be done.

    The fact that I give a shit about the second point AT ALL I suspect is probably why I continue to get calls for this music haha (and I know the rep.)

    In its own way modern jazz is much more forgiving.
    Can I get a Hallelujah!

  35. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Hey Christian... OK sorry.

    Funny...that old modern thing you seems to be talking about always seems rather simple personally. I played Hotel Swing dance band gigs every weekend as a kid. Then back in the 80's, 90's would get great $ gigs in Vegas and other wealthy retirement folk gigs all over the states.... small and large BBs...

    Maybe some have trouble with that straight swing feel.... because you do need strong rhythmic articulation technique.

    I play some up tempo Blue Grass gigs, very similar kind of western swing feels. S-W-S-W.

    Good luck... your great player (maybe a little crazy), but it's catchy.

    Can you imply the feel... playing solo. That's always been my test.

    (blues influence camouflaged)
    Well thanks! means a lot.

    yes I get the Western Swing/Bluegrass connection. It can feel that way. that’s closer than modern jazz swing. They are similar - variants on a two feel with syncopation. It works well enough to be legitimate.

    there’s more to it. The real shit is funkier in a way it takes time to get into. And then there’s the Kansas City four feel... Lester was not playing with a band playing a two beat groove. But they weren’t the bop feel either...

    Bonsritmos is pointing to some very interesting stuff that has reignited my interest in it beyond it being just a gig. I can see ways I can develop it past the gypsy jazz or chord solos or having to imitate the past... we’ll see
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-14-2020 at 06:43 PM.

  36. #135

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    [QUOTE=christianm77;1024090]This instantly triggered a couple of thoughts

    1) it’s always been a challenge to me as the usually sole guitar or sole comper in a swing band as a soloist I can’t take liberties with the time. So therefore I have to play, or feel I must, play very locked in, to keep the time going or the band is going to lose its groove.

    I've been looking for a way to do this without playing running 8ths. Or chords.

    A lot of the downstream discussion is over my head, but I'll venture a response to this particular point.

    If the bassist and the drummer are locked tight together with good feel, the two of them should provide ample rhythm and harmony. At that point, the soloist has a complete foundation and can take off (this has to be with good time feel, but not necessarily as the creator of it within the group).

    If you feel, as the soloist, or, for that matter, as the only comping instrument, that you're dragging the bass or drums along with you in a labored effort, then something's wrong.

    I've always assumed that a highly skilled musician could listen to the laboring group and diagnose the problem pretty quickly. But, I end up having to diagnose it the same way a non-techie figures out which tube is bad. You switch them out one at time with a tube that you know is good.

    So, at a point where I was starting to feel like I should give up guitar because my time feel was so bad, I invited some pros I knew over for a jam on the same material. Suddenly, my time feel was much better. Eventually tracked it down to the bassist. Better bassist and I played better. It's a hierarchy. I'm confident the pros wondered if I needed a few minutes on a tube-tester.

    Particularly in groove based music, the bass and the drums should be able to create a great groove by themselves. In fact, when you hear a good musician playing alone, you can feel groove.

    I did a trio gig last Christmas with some musicians that I think of as a good deal above my head. Guitar, horn and bass. So, a fair amount of it was guitar and bass. The bassist played very simply, but his time feel was so strong that playing over his bass lines was relaxing. I felt like I could do anything and it would land right in the groove. With a weaker bassist I can end up feeling like I have no sense of time at all.

    I think a reasonable comment would be that I should be able to create it and bring the others along with me. Great players can do that -- Reg certainly among them -- he has great time feel -- and it's something I aspire to.

    As far as working on it goes, the best thing I've found, so far, for improving time feel, is more hours playing with really great players. I've gotten nothing out of books and very little out of practicing with metronome or backing track. Playing along with recordings helps to a degree but live is better. Also, recording the sessions and critiqueing them. It's easier to be a critic than a player, meaning you can hear things on the recording that you thought, incorrectly, were good when you played them. Please don't ask how I know that.

  37. #136

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    So about the time thing .....

    my my teacher once asked the class
    "who in the band is most responsible for the time"

    various answers were offered but his answer was

    _

    _

    _

    _

    _

    _

    "everyone"

    I liked that ......
    (i like a good aphorism)

  38. #137

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    Yes. 100%. That's the basic bar..

    Now, for advanced applications ask yourself how time is from feel to feel and how you might be able to make that felt without any accompaniment.

    The problem I'm talking about is often manifested by musicians not quite playing the right feel for that specific style (usually out of habit), and how do I make up the ground to pull it more towards the area it needs to be in for the gig.

    people feel the same when playing some specific Brazilian feel as opposed to generic 'straight 8s/latin', right?

    Secondly, am I always limited by that obligation within the style, or is there a way of finding more freedom (maybe.)

  39. #138

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    christian, you are hitting the nail on the head about going back to the early jazz and really hearing the groove they were coming from. for a long time i didnt get it, i heard the rhythm section playing ompa/ompa/ and thought that was the role back then.

    but, its the soloists who are laying down this monster groove . once i plugged into that groove, it all made sence.

    and this in many cases is with out drums. so many fundimentals of what we play in pre ornette / brubeck jazz , go back into early jazz phrasings and the tricks they were using. miles tipped his hat to armstrong in the A section of milestones with the cadence in the head. you heard how red garland was throwing in opanije type cadence in a solo over a swing bravum type style. you saw how the early jazz opanije like cadence was almost like two half notes and ilu, which has huge variations how to express that, like cascara surrounds clave or using less notes .

    its really great people like us can look back and start to see for the first time, the real groove and feeling they were shooting for and how that carries over into the modern jazz we are trying to play.im not going to do an armstrong revival band , but i sure have a renewed deep respect for what he was doing now , and it affects how i aproach what im playing now.i just picked up a thing from stride that helps me deal with practicing with mccoy records.

    rpjazz, you contributed greatly on the samba thread right ? you are so right, if one person is not sync, it really affects the whole thing, especialy the bass player . and it is up to each individual to compensate for any weak links . this is where this understanding of the origins in jazz, how much cadence phrase playing is going on. when they didnt have drums, they are playing huge amounts of these cadences that fit right with bell parts on ketu candomble. its like there is so much more pivot point phrasing going on. its more linear now.

    great for new directions , influences, but if people then want to funtion in a swinging jazz group especialy up tempo, you cant ignore the origins of where this all comes from.

    its the secret too, the tricks, play more firm rhythm cadences in your solos , and the band will swing harder , you will swing harder. you will be able to go faster

    fast 16 note runs that dont hook up the groove, will swim against the current.if you know the tricks, how cadences with the group help to swing harder and go faster if you want, its like putting english on the cue ball, with actualy less effort, you can cause more spin and torque on the groove and actualy take the rhythm section on your back and move it along

  40. #139

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    I think that is what I am trying to say

  41. #140

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    So really... it still comes down to technique on your instrument. Christian and bonsritmos are working on unexplained rhythmic secrets of getting that Feel.... Which is cool and and I'm trying to use my BS to theoretcially break it down.... Sorry, trying to keep it light. Personally... you just need to be able to walk and chew gum.

    *meaning if your technique on your instrument is good enough.... to not need to be "In the Moment" when performing, you can actually think about the music and the context.

    It's difficult to play what you don't have the technical skills to realize on your instrument. Like if you have trouble playing rhythm changes at 300mm while practicing or in a controlled setting. How can you expect to be able to play them live while interacting with other musicians. You need to be able to play much faster than 300mm to perform at 300mm. Or say 220mm...I'm just picking a tempo.

    So at any tempo.... to create different feels, swing, latin, funk whatever.... feels are created by accent patterns and subdividing. So at least... you need triplet subdivisions of beats. Which already adds one more attack to the time frame and brings the temp up by a 3rd, depending on the pulse.

    Or maybe... when I was a kid, I played the Villa-Lobos Preludes, they were short, cool and not too difficult, but there was always at least one difficult passage in each one, (or more). Anyway I remember learning that I really couldn't play any of the preludes until I could easy play the difficult passages. another lousy analogy

    Yea pingn... aphorisms are a way of life. Have you ever been in one of those setting at collage or private music seminar or festival where speaker asks all the musicians to keep time in their heads and clap on beat one of a 4 bar phrase.... then of 2 bar phrase.... then 1 bar. I've used that opening. Relaxes room instantly.

  42. #141

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    reg

    i definitly think technique is important. the things i talk about are suposed to be added on to all the work you have to do about theory , harmony, scales, understanding form and the mechanics of playing the guitar . like they all have to be kind of mixed together. even if you dont go deep into the things im talking about, rhythm is part of technique . playing with dynamics is having control of rhythmic attack so well you can do it at any volume. so ,im with you about technique. i find practicing these ketu grooves right handed then left at differant tempos, gives me a lot of technique .

    im with you about if you cant execute some ideas at 300 , how can you go on the bandstand expecting to do it. for me , the banstand, studio, real time, playing with other people , playing to an audience, is the whole end game . what ever i do i want to be able to take it to the bandstand or i have to discard it. and we should challenge ourselves in practice to what we might meet on the bandstand

    so, im with you on a lot of things...there are a lot of ways to reach a certain leval , most important of all, the will of the individual to put in the time on it.

  43. #142

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    This is some of the most high-level and intelligent conversation I've heard on the forum in a long time, and I have heard some good stuff here. I've learned so much from you all conversing like this. When solid players seriously talk about what they do in the way you all have, I just feel like I should sit down and take notes, which is pretty much what I'm doing.

    Thanks C77, bons, Reg, rp, everyone, for a really high-level seminar.

  44. #143

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    hey bonsritmos... Cool, I'm always trying to keep things as simple as possible. Before you go to the moon, you need to learn how to travel. LOL I'm wacked, sorry.

    I keep skills in two categorizes... (and I always use the... Reference... Relationships.. Developments as organization of)

    1) technical skill
    2) performance skills

    So yes... all the skills your talking about... start in #1. And in #1, I've always pushed the physical technical skills on the instrument first, learning how the guitar works, and developing the physical skills from that perspective.

    Speed is a direct result from better understanding of the instrument, and developing playing skills that reflect those understanding of the instrument and our physical skills. (body etc.. how we are personally wired, what type of person we are). I agree with you about Rhythm, it's always the most important, the starting reference.

    yea then #2 the performance skills.... that's another story.

  45. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos
    christian, you are hitting the nail on the head about going back to the early jazz and really hearing the groove they were coming from. for a long time i didnt get it, i heard the rhythm section playing ompa/ompa/ and thought that was the role back then.

    but, its the soloists who are laying down this monster groove . once i plugged into that groove, it all made sence.
    If going back to the those basics helps be able to play music you didn't grow up with - without an accent - that's a great contribution.

    One of the related issues is the degree to which you can even correctly perceive the feel of the music. For example, I recall a session with a good saxophonist who was swinging the 8th notes on a Brazilian tune. He could not perceive the difference. To his ear, those eighths were even.

    This is a huge challenge, I think, in playing groove based music that you didn't learn when you were young. It's comparable to speaking a new language without an accent. If you learn it before age 11 or so, you can sound like a native speaker. Learn it later than that and you have an accent for life.

    In my experience trying to overcome this obstacle, the best thing was to play with musicians who already had the feel and then record everything. I could hear things on playback which were not at all apparent to me in the actual session. I believe that sharpens one's ability to discern problems in rhythmic feel. You can't get this from a book or from a metronome. Maybe from recordings. Better live, I think.

  46. #145

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    Tell me about it! I’ve been called out for the same thing with Brazilian music.

    So what do you do? Fire up the DAW and get it on the grid, perhaps. (I’ve done that just to get clear on basic distinctions between swing and straight upbeats. Embarrassing to confess, but you need an objective judge.) Record yourself and listen carefully. Whatever it takes. Retrain your ears.

    that’s the thing that aggravates me about so much of the advice that’s given - just transcribe, play with records, play with good drummers. Well, yes, but also - your ears and your innate rhythmic sense can lie to you. You often have to retrain your instincts.

    that’s scary. But it’s been the case for me time and time again. I think people are gaslighting me sometimes lol but I listen back and lo and behold it’s not how I thought it was.

    If you hear a samba fork as a quarter triplet, no amount of jamming with records is going to help you. You need to get specific. That might not be metronome or click stuff necessarily, but it needs specific educated attention.

    its like a language. You might hear a vowel with the wrong sound for instance. There’s a lilt or an accent on one hand, and there’s a basic mistake in the language that might impair communication. And beside accents are not bad things. I hear Brazilians rather like Portuguese spoken with an English accent lol.

    i can even tolerate American accents in my mother tongue ;-)

    drummers get it. They can’t afford to subscribe to comforting fantasies about intuition and rhythm if they want to work.

    OTOH my time is so innately bad (on the instrument in particular which is where Regs points about technique are important) I need all the help I can get haha. I think I’ve got better...

  47. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Tell me about it! I’ve been called out for the same thing with Brazilian music.

    So what do you do? Fire up the DAW and get it on the grid, perhaps. (I’ve done that just to get clear on basic distinctions between swing and straight upbeats. Embarrassing to confess, but you need an objective judge.) Record yourself and listen carefully. Whatever it takes. Retrain your ears.

    that’s the thing that aggravates me about so much of the advice that’s given - just transcribe, play with records, play with good drummers. Well, yes, but also - your ears and your innate rhythmic sense can lie to you. You often have to retrain your instincts.

    that’s scary. But it’s been the case for me time and time again. I think people are gaslighting me sometimes lol but I listen back and lo and behold it’s not how I thought it was.

    If you hear a samba fork as a quarter triplet, no amount of jamming with records is going to help you. You need to get specific. That might not be metronome or click stuff necessarily, but it needs specific educated attention.

    its like a language. You might hear a vowel with the wrong sound for instance. There’s a lilt or an accent on one hand, and there’s a basic mistake in the language that might impair communication. And beside accents are not bad things. I hear Brazilians rather like Portuguese spoken with an English accent lol.

    i can even tolerate American accents in my mother tongue ;-)

    drummers get it. They can’t afford to subscribe to comforting fantasies about intuition and rhythm if they want to work.

    OTOH my time is so innately bad (on the instrument in particular which is where Regs points about technique are important) I need all the help I can get haha. I think I’ve got better...
    Celso Alberti - Brazilian Drums & Percussion Vol 1 – The Loop Loft

    This links to drum loops done by Celso Alberti, who, among other major credits, played with Airto and Flora.

    I have had an opportunity to study a bit with him. This memory sticks in mind. He was demonstrating how to play a 16th note pattern (well, give or take) on a simple egg shaker. When he did it, it felt like the room was transported to Brazil. Nobody else could get the same feel, including some Americans with a lot of experience playing samba.

    He did the drum loops live -- and the groove is exactly what it should be.

    Might be a worthwhile practice tool.

  48. #147

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    Yea... again, I'm not Brazilian.... but I also play gigs with Brazilian musicians... ton's back in the 70's and 80's...toured... and never had and don't have problems... because I can subdivide and then mechanically get the attack patterns... and adjust as needed to the players. Same with Afro-Cuban or Afro-Caribbean.

    They can all be notated... with accents. So if there is a montuno or clave rhythmic pattern... I'll get it because I understand rhythmic patterns. I worked on my rhythmic chops as a kid, (or maybe it was drum lessons with Alan Dawson back in Boston) ... Again my point is ... I worked on physical rhythmic technique studies... It doesn't take that much time to have the "feel", because I understand... or at least have a mechanical system of breaking down feels rhythmically so I don't have to.... become something to.... perform something.

    I do get it... there are different approaches. I do also like to BS.

  49. #148

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    lawson-stone , you are as important part of this discusion as anyone. just to feel your desire to get better is fantastic and i feel i could show you or anyone a lot of things that would help them on the bandstand

    reg, performance skills , you arnt kidding, i mean that is really why we are getting this all together , to go out and perform , right? ill tell you another thing to add to that, the next step after you get your playing to a point that you are comfortable playing with all kinds of other people and playing pretty good, is the question " what do my ideas and what im playing really sound like to other people, my bandmates and the audience ?" . which is imposable to really know, yet it is the big kahuna, "how are those ideas coming across?". i always told cats, wait until you listen to the tape before you criticize hahaha . we have no idea what we really sound like as we play.

    but, rp, you made a great point, about listening to yourself in the studio, and yes, playing with better cats . its after a huge amount of playing on the bandstand, listening to the gig tapes, recording , analysing that, over and over, you finaly start to get an idea, only an idea , of how you sound to other people, how you project. of course every accoustic is differant every gig , recording studio, differant. but over that span, you really start to get what you are projecting out there.

    christian, i dont hear weakness of touch in the things i checked out of you . i feel like what you want to cop you will .

    and rp , i hear what you are saying about if you speak a language at 8 you may not have the accent later. for sure authenticity is very valuable. and i can tell you , if someone is in love with brazilian music , to not be in brazil is achingly dificult, and sure was one factor in me making a desician to live in brazil. ive been here more than thirty years , ive also played with some of the top innovators in a few differant idioms in brazil and for sure, contributes to confidence. i am definitly dedicated to not having an accent ...only not in my portuguese speaking hahahaha i dance samba better than i speak portuguese, probably more important to be able to crack off some good samba steps than speak portuguese with out an accent hahaha , yes , my speaking accent is forever , ask my son , who is my biggest ridicular. but i dont have a complex around brazilian musicians like i cant play various brazilian styles . i paid my dues that i can hang , if they dont want me to play with their group , let me get my freinds and play against them .


    but, some of my earliest records in chicago, showed my great afinity for samba ( for sure that hybrid american jazz samba , but some cats like lennie white , alphonce , de johnette, gadd etc kind of make a jazz samba their own and it was pretty killer, not authentic though hahaha), clave, up bop modal swing . i worked a gig with manfredo fest in chicago ( one of the greats i wish i knew then what i know now), i worked in chicago with a dancer who really knew samba , and , while yes, i would never get the depth i know now, i still was burning and had the wild desire and fire in my heart. its not like i know everything in brazil now , there is always something new to blow my mind . these ketu candomble beats are in the last 6 years and its blown my mind, and , seriously , for you, who are obviously invested in learning brazilian music, this is the the stuff that tells you where all those hip brazilian grooves are coming from. that was my original motive of learning ketu condomble, to really tighten up my brazilian grooves to the max .

    in classical music , i think there are rigorous standards that are passed around the world so you get great classical music players all over. but , you can only get next to great brazilian players like you did with the drummer, its not a standard powerful full range study available abound with lots of experts not just a few. i think that is a big reason there is a line of authenticity that is a thin one , in the usa , or anywhere outside of brazil ,of great brazilian styles . but , even in brazil, there is a huge differance in styles and expertice in those styles . if you live one place you arnt going to get the same vantage point of certain styles as the person living where those styles originated from.

  50. #149

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    Hey rp... you ever hear the Aebersold Brazilan Renato Vasconcellos samples. kind of pop... but fun.

    Years ago, back in the 70's, use to bump into this percussionist (drummer), Kim Plainfield, great gigs, anyway became friends... I went to berklee... He toured and didn't bum into him until late 70's he was really good, with latin/ brazilian feels. Toured with Tania Maria, (besides a ton of other good road gigs). he later hooked up at Berklee anyway he passed away back in 2017... hmmm But he has some good rhythmic books, which push same approach and philosophy I use but a little more modern. He was a technique freak..."technique gives us the tools to make our ideas come to life on our instrument." or something like that... And I still have my Duduka Da Fonseca studies.

    Anyway when we get back on the street... I'll book gig in your area with this latin/brazilian trio I work with Nord keys and kicks bass, a great percussionist and guitar. We can play anything.... we just play jazz tunes to keep audiences from dancing, calm them down...
    Best Reg

  51. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Hey rp... you ever hear the Aebersold Brazilan Renato Vasconcellos samples. kind of pop... but fun.

    Years ago, back in the 70's, use to bump into this percussionist (drummer), Kim Plainfield, great gigs, anyway became friends... I went to berklee... He toured and didn't bum into him until late 70's he was really good, with latin/ brazilian feels. Toured with Tania Maria, (besides a ton of other good road gigs). he later hooked up at Berklee anyway he passed away back in 2017... hmmm But he has some good rhythmic books, which push same approach and philosophy I use but a little more modern. He was a technique freak..."technique gives us the tools to make our ideas come to life on our instrument." or something like that... And I still have my Duduka Da Fonseca studies.

    Anyway when we get back on the street... I'll book gig in your area with this latin/brazilian trio I work with Nord keys and kicks bass, a great percussionist and guitar. We can play anything.... we just play jazz tunes to keep audiences from dancing, calm them down...

    Best Reg
    Reg, I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to hearing your trio -- and just to have life back to normal.

    I have not heard that Aebersold material.

    I heard you play some really good samba comping at that gig. So, I know you know what you're talking about.

    How to develop it is an interesting question. I'd start with this ... why could Celso do something with an egg shaker that the other players couldn't do? We could all hear it, but none of us (all pro or semipro players) could reproduce the feel. Technical skills ... for an egg shaker? I haven't checked out Duduka's books. I've heard him live several times -- monster player. I'm a Trio Da Paz fan -- noting that the last time I heard them at Dizzy's they had 6 people, which is, you know, a little large for a trio. Harry Allen, Claudio Rotiti and Maucha (don't know the surname), so no complaints there.

    I'd say, based on my own and others' experience, that a lot of players have trouble getting the feel right. I guess there are some that can do it.

    Interestingly, I've heard Brazilians occasionally break into swing grooves as a kind of musical joke, and they have always sounded really good.