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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I t


    Again most post bop improvisers use these techniques a lot. It’s the toolkit you need for that music. It’s kind of bop rhythmic and melodic techniques applied to CST harmony.
    Can you point me to a specific player or track? Guitar? Any-other-instrument?

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Can you point me to a specific player or track? Guitar? Any-other-instrument?
    Brecker
    Mike Stern
    Joe Henderson
    Herbie Hancock etc
    even Cannonball Adderley actually

    Also the modern guys on guitar

    Kurt
    moreno
    Adam Rogers
    and so on

    etc etc

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    B
    I've listened to some of those guys. Seen Moreno live. Didn't remind me of Chico. Of course, that doesn't mean Moreno wasn't adapting the same theory/technique to his own style.

    I'm having trouble accepting that what I hear in Chico is commonplace, somehow. But, there is a lot of jazz that I haven't listened to.

    I might have an even harder time if somebody said something similar about Toninho Horta.

    It's the same 12 notes and, when you analyze the notes used in a given situation, sure, they will fit some kind of analysis. But, there's a certain magic, in my view, in the way these players put things together. I don't think the usual analysis touches that. I'm willing to be convinced, but I don't see it.

    As an aside (rant on), theoretical analysis, to one way of thinking, isn't interesting unless it produces valid predictions. In some technical areas, the models are so flexible that they can fit any data set while failing to predict anything useful. "Too many degrees of freedom" is a technical term that may be applied.

    It is either true, or partly true, that no matter what line is being analyzed, somebody will be able to explain it. A thread last year analyzed an F# against a G7, with completely plausible accounts of why it worked so well. If you can explain any note against any chord, how does that help your next solo? I think there's something about great melody that either is resistant to analysis, or, at least, I have no idea how to approach it. (rant off)

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I've listened to some of those guys. Seen Moreno live. Didn't remind me of Chico. Of course, that doesn't mean Moreno wasn't adapting the same theory/technique to his own style.
    I meant in terms of chops, nothing more.

    I'm having trouble accepting that what I hear in Chico is commonplace, somehow. But, there is a lot of jazz that I haven't listened to.

    I’m not saying Chico is a commonplace musician. It’s obvious he is not.

    i mean to say - I recognise a lot of what he is doing in other players.

    i mean you could sit down with a lot of blue note eta players and see the same licks over and over, right? They all listened to the same records!

    But differences in tone, time feel and phrasing would mean they wouldn’t sound the same.

    It's the same 12 notes and, when you analyze the notes used in a given situation, sure, they will fit some kind of analysis. But, there's a certain magic, in my view, in the way these players put things together. I don't think the usual analysis touches that. I'm willing to be convinced, but I don't see it.
    i just think I’m coming at it from a different position that you think I am. When I study someone, my attitude is more ‘what can I learn from this player?’ What do I want to beg borrow or steal for my own purposes?

    Because if I want to nick something someone is doing I have to like it. And if I like it that means there’s an emotional connection. Which means almost by definition it’s my style? Anyway I’m a collector, an eclectic.

    I’m not trying to explain why someone sounds good. I don’t need to do that. That’s one for the real theorists! The Schenkers, Russells and Riemanns (And they always fail; at best fail interestingly IMO)

    However there are technical aspects. One I think that’s overlooked in line construction is the relationship between chromatic notes, chord tones, rhythm and phrasing. Most players get that from bebop, although as Reg says you have it in classical melody writing too.

    Theres a toolkit for working on those kind of windy postbop lines if you interested in learning how to do them, and if not, does it really matter?
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-02-2020 at 07:01 AM.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I meant in terms of chops, nothing more.

    I'm having trouble accepting that what I hear in Chico is commonplace, somehow. But, there is a lot of jazz that I haven't listened to.

    I’m not saying Chico is a commonplace musician. It’s obvious he is not.

    i mean to say - I recognise a lot of what he is doing in other players.

    i mean you could sit down with a lot of blue note eta players and see the same licks over and over, right? They all listened to the same records!

    But differences in tone, time feel and phrasing would mean they wouldn’t sound the same.



    i just think I’m coming at it from a different position that you think I am. When I study someone, my attitude is more ‘what can I learn from this player?’ What do I want to beg borrow or steal for my own purposes?

    Because if I want to nick something someone is doing I have to like it. And if I like it that means there’s an emotional connection. Which means almost by definition it’s my style? Anyway I’m a collector, an eclectic.

    I’m not trying to explain why someone sounds good. I don’t need to do that. That’s one for the real theorists! The Schenkers, Russells and Riemanns (And they always fail; at best fail interestingly IMO)

    However there are technical aspects. One I think that’s overlooked in line construction is the relationship between chromatic notes, chord tones, rhythm and phrasing. Most players get that from bebop, although as Reg says you have it in classical melody writing too.

    Theres a toolkit for working on those kind of windy postbop lines if you interested in learning how to do them, and if not, does it really matter?
    The aspect that I find intriguing and elusive is that Chico always sounds like himself -- and, to my ear -- different from everybody else.

    But, I haven't been able to put my finger on exactly how he accomplishes that. As I said near the beginning of this discussion, if you look at the pool of notes he's using, it isn't necessarily different from the typical prescriptions, e.g. Abmelmin against G7 in a ii V I. And, yet, he finds a way to make it his. If you look at the rhythms, a lot of it is 16th note streams. If you look at the way he plays over a cadence, you see anticipations of changes, but that's very common in Brazilian music. His timing is very precise and his technique is very clean, both of which contribute to his sound.

    But, in thinking about it I end up with melody as the distinguishing characteristic -- which is a subject I've never looked into in a formal way, but maybe the virus will last long enough that I will.

    This may be more curiousity than an attempt to take something for my own playing.